WoW is pulling a HotS

[korijenkins]

This ENTIRE thing falls apart when you realize the most casual friendly expansion Wrath that people glorify these days was HYPER casual friendly and had over 11 million subs.

What in the fuck?

[temple1906]

Thats just an opinion. The launch of WotLK was one of the greatest times I had, mainly because I got to explore a beautiful new content and engage in its lore. Its not as great for high end raiders, but the casuals sure loved it.

But that's the problem isn't it? You've changed the game to cater to players that don't want to invest time/effort into the game, and by doing so alienated your players that do. The problem is that while there are more casual players, their investment isn't high enough to keep them forever and they will leave if they feel like you're not catering to them. For a lot of casual players, the more hardcore mentallity is entirely foreign to them. WotLK was basically Blizzard focusing on short term gain rather than longterm sustainability. We can see this in sub numbers. If catering to casuals is better for long term success, then why has every expansion since Cataclysm retained less and less subs over its lifetime? People say because the game is old, but that's not why. We can see that the games age has nothing to do with it since every expansion sells well AT LAUNCH and Vanilla/TBC/Wrath private servers are all very very alive to this day. You're telling me that all of these people are tired of WoW because it's old when the odler versions of the game have very active private server communities? If you added up all of the active players from the most popular Vanilla/TBC/Wrath private servers, I would bet you have a couple million subs. Now include the people that want to go back but don't want to deal with a private server? You've got another few hundred thousand to a million subs right there too. All counted, you've got probably 2.5 million potential subs playing the older version or wishing there was an official client for the older version. How many subs do you think BfA has right now? No more than 2.5 million. Possibly lower than a million.

[PlazaPlaza]

All mythic raiders here it seems.

[lunethzero]

If you compare Wotlk up to the point where BFA is now it's not a crazy statement though. Uldir may not be one of the best raids but it's better and more challenging than Naxx, and the BFA dungeons are better and more challenging than the WotLK ones. BFA also has side content that has been added to the game since WotLK which wasn't around then which gives more to do.

Just because its challenging doesn't make it fun. And the side content adds no substance to the game other than just being a welfare gear machine. On top of everything, it doesn't matter how much content there is if the classes aren't interesting and fun to play.

[PlazaPlaza]

I laughed so hard at this I almost spit out my drink.

He is right.. But because you are mad or something lol at BfA you make a comment like that. Besides that if you don't like BfA you should just quit.

[temple1906]

During WoW's first decade around 100M players had tried WoW.
I feel it's pretty useless to try to guess why they quit playing. There's certainly more to it than "catering to casuals".

This is such a non-argument. MMOs are not for everyone. RPGs are not for everyone. MMORPGs are not for everyone. The fact that the game was popualr enough that 100 million people tried it in the first decade is a testament to how well made it was. The fact that it retained 11% of those players is incredible, when you consider how niche the MMORPG genre is. MMOs were not mainstream popular until WoW hit the scene.

- - - Updated - - -

The raids were way easier in organized groups in WotLK. Todays heroic and mythic raids are way more "hardcore".

Heroic is not hardcore. Heroic today is like what Normal was in Wrath. It's piss easy and requires basic mechanical skill. You can have multiple members die and still clear the encounter.

[Akka]

I don't know. The first decade of WoW had pretty bad retention rates considering they had 100M people trying it and only managed to hit 11M sustained subs. Of course, that's all pretty academic now, but I don't think the result would have been much different, regardless of streamlining or not.

In all truth, I don't know either. My point was more about how the guy just made an affirmation out of thin air, and I answered in kind - while at least having some thin pieces of actual facts lending somewhat my way.

I do think that WoW would have fared better, if not strictly in numbers, at least in retention and interest for those playing.

Ok, so you think that WoW's *overall* population decline is due to streamlining? LOL

At least there is a correlation, even if it doesn't imply causation.
Your own affirmation lacked even that, it was just some empty affirmation based on... well, nothing.

Look at the MMO market in North America. It barely even exists anymore.

So what ? Before WoW, it was even smaller, Blizzard expected something like 200k sub and hoped in their mad dreams to reach 600k. They got 7,5 million. Your point is just as empty as your affirmation.

What I was referring to earlier was that the recent 'good' expansions also had streamlining.

What "good" expansion ? MoP is the only one what was decent, and it was more due to superb lore than changing anything in the core "new" philosophy of WotLK.

Even if they pop numbers from these expansions are down from Wrath, they were successful in increasing subs from the last one.

No they were not. All of them went down.

But yeah, unless MMO's magically become popular in the West again, not even Classic will maintain Wrath's population.

Classic will not reach anything like even original Vanilla population, because despite it's quality, it's still a) old, b) a finished product without future, c) not all people who liked it are going back for many reasons.
But if WotLK had followed Classic/Early TBC design philosophy, I'm pretty sure the growth would have followed, and the fall would have been much slower.

[Elias01]

The raids were way easier in organized groups in WotLK. Todays heroic and mythic raids are way more "hardcore".

There is one big problem. You compare wotlk raids to todays mythic raids which is false comparison. You have to focus on players abillity to finish content. Yes you have to compare wotlk raida to LFR. Mythic isnt relevant in this diacusion becouse new difficulty isnt new content. Wotlk was far more exclusive becouse it didnt had LFR. As long as current game will have LFR and other afk faveroll fest featurea new expansion will never be more hardcore than wotlk. Acessability is what matter not difficulty. If game is more accessible is also more casual.

[Kpmk]

The history of HotS:
It started out being called Blizzard Dota. It had the Dota map, it had items, it had everything that was needed to be concidered a competetor to LoL and Dota 2. It was just a SC2 custom map. Blizzard showed it off on a Blizzcon at an early stage, and people really loved it!

Then they decided to move it out of SC2 to their own game. Here, they started "innovating". They changed name to Heroes of the Storm, removed items, they made some gimmicky maps etc. to a point it could no longer be concidered a competetor to the MOBAs anymore. "Streamline and make it more accessable!". Nobody wanted to switch from LoL or Dota 2 to this game. Basically telling the LoL and Dota 2 players that love blizzard "you are not the target audience anymore, sorry". Sure there were a small amount that switched, but LoL and Dota 2 did NOT lose any noticable playerbase when HotS released. Blizzard went from targeting the MOBA community to caitering to the casual MOBA community that BARELY EXISTS. The game is now basically in "maintenance mode", it's dead.

The same can be said about WoW. "Streamline and make it more accessable!". The people that enjoyed Classic and TBC WoW are today told "you are not the target audience anymore, sorry" and instead they target this casual MMORPG community that BARELY EXISTS. See the resemblence?

And they are wondering why the numbers keep dropping. Wonder if they even see the parallel to HotS. Probably not, so expect WoW in "maintenance mode" in a few years.

I agree except that the casual MMO audience is massive.

[Tomana]

WOTLK was stupidly hardcore compared to current game. get out.

Yeah right, heroic dungeons (which gave badges) were sooooo hard after the first week.

[Kpmk]

Ok, so you think that WoW's *overall* population decline is due to streamlining? LOL

Look at the MMO market in North America. It barely even exists anymore. Less and less people want to invest so much of their spare time into games that revolve mostly around grinding. THAT's why WoW's population is declining. People in general don't play MMO's anymore. The market saturated in Wrath, and has tapered off since.

What I was referring to earlier was that the recent 'good' expansions also had streamlining. Even if they pop numbers from these expansions are down from Wrath, they were successful in increasing subs from the last one.

But yeah, unless MMO's magically become popular in the West again, not even Classic will maintain Wrath's population.

To add to that do you know how fucking hard it is to get people to invest that much in a game that's 14 years old? Bringing in new players to this old ass game, especially at a rate quicker than people are leaving, is just an impossible feat at this point. Doesn't matter how good your content is.

[Kudos]

WOTLK was stupidly hardcore compared to current game. get out.

Lol. No. 10 man easier raids. Incredibly easy heroic dungeons. Naxxramas incredibly easy. Welfare badge loot. Lots of pugging of content, such as Gold DKP runs.

[temple1906]

To add to that do you know how fucking hard it is to get people to invest that much in a game that's 14 years old? Bringing in new players to this old ass game, especially at a rate quicker than people are leaving, is just an impossible feat at this point. Doesn't matter how good your content is.

Correct, eventually the game will die its true death. All things die, it's the nature of the universe. Just because WoW will continue to lose subs and eventually die does not mean that changes to the game can't slow down or quicken its death. Look at Star Wars Galaxies for exmaple. It was a niche game. MMOs before WoW were a niche market. Those in the market, loved the game for all of the roleplaying elements it had. It felt like you were in the Star Wars universe. Part of this was that you could spend a lot of time and effort in the game to become a Jedi. Being a Jedi was naturally OP but felt like a natural part of the game world. More casual players did not like this, they wanted to be a Jedi too. After releasing their 2005 expansion they quickly deployed what is now the infamous NGE (New Game Enhancements) patch, in the hopes that dumbing down the depth and casualizing the game would help them achieve the same success WoW currently was. This killed the game pretty much over night. It was like going from Vanilla WoW systems and design one day, to the next day going to current BfA design.

Now take Blizzard. They too want to casualize the game, in the hopes that it will increase subs, increase revenue, and pull the casual players that are intimidated by the genres conventions. However, they know that a sudden paradigm shift like that will instantly kill the game. So, they make it a little more casual every expansion. They take things away and convince you that they were bad for the game. They reintroduce them in a highly contained and structured way so that they can easily meter your progress and pace it to the way they want. This began in WotLK when Blizzard realized that eventually the game would die, but it was far too lucrative to let it run its natural course. So design goals changed. Systems changed. All in an attempt to cultivate and then keep the more casual audience over a long period of time. This has partially worked. WoW, despite being a dying game, is still the most active and popular MMO on the market (though XIV and TESO are catching up). But, the wheels are finally starting to fall off the wagon because players are (conciously or subconciously) starting to notice that they're playing the SWG NGE patch, but the patch features have just been added slowly over time instead of all at once.

I won't say that if Blizzard continues down this path next expansion that the game is going to die completely, that's simply not going to happen. Its been around so long that a lot of us will sub right up until the final expansion just to see how all of this ends. In fact, despite the terrible design, I imagine a lot of subs would flood back in if they said BfA would be the last expac and 8.3.5 the final patch. Afterall, where can we go from here? The game is not going to grow, only continue to shrink. Continuing down the current path is going to cause it shrink faster. Fixing what's wrong would require a complete paradigm shift in the company, so that's not happening.

I think a lot of the angst from current/un-subbed players comes from knowing that this game and world they love is nearing its final years, and they really just wish the game would return to a better form before it dies for real.

- - - Updated - - -

Lol. No. 10 man easier raids. Incredibly easy heroic dungeons. Naxxramas incredibly easy. Welfare badge loot. Lots of pugging of content, such as Gold DKP runs.

10 man easier raids? LFR is easier.

Easy Heroics? Todays Heroics are just as easy, if not easier.

Naxx incredibly easy? LFR is easier.

Welfare badge loot? Required actively doing content. Vendor had limited item slots you could buy for. Today you can get Welfare loot from Warfronts, WQs, and World
Bosses. All of which are brain dead (world bosses used to require a coordinated group to kill) and can be AFKed through.

Lots of puggable content? Maybe I'm mistaken but I don't think there were many pug groups that killed Yogg or LK in Wrath while they were current. I'm sure it happened, but it wasn't common. And again, all content in the game is currently puggable thanks to LFD and LFR.

[MalfLFT]

There was no stagnation in sub numbers during Wrath though.

Compared to tbc? there sure as hell were

[SirBeef]

I would level running a bunch of bgs and use the honor to buy the pvp gear available at the time. I would then time it to hit 80 in AV throw on all the gear and go on a killing spree. It was nice not having a level restriction for purchasing gear.

But it was stupidly hardcore compared to today. Not casual friendly at all.

[ID811717]

And they are wondering why the numbers keep dropping.

How can you tell?

[Puupi]

How can you tell?

Anecdotal, yet no one from my guild is playing. No one.

It's a guild that has been formed in vanilla and has cleared all content more or less in time until now. About 300 accounts in the guild.

We had around 70-80 active players during BfA launch.

[sopeonaroap]

This ENTIRE thing falls apart when you realize the most casual friendly expansion Wrath that people glorify these days was HYPER casual friendly and had over 11 million subs.

wow peaked at 10 million subs at cata launch, wotlk was more casual friendly than vanilla or bc but less than any other expansion. it required a large time investment and the lack of LFR forced people to be good enough to get into a pug or a guild that raided. wotlk was the perfect balance of everything and that's why it was the best expansion.

you don't know what the fuck you're talking about

[mvaliz]

Yeah right, heroic dungeons (which gave badges) were sooooo hard after the first week.

Actually, they were in the beginning/first few weeks. It was only when LFG happened (along with the pug buff) did they become super easier.

[MalfLFT]

The all time high 12M subs was announced at end of Wrath, just two months ahead of Cata release.
You need to check your facts, this is easily verifiable information

The fact that the sub numbers stagnate doesnt mean it wasnt rising. Just at a much much slower rate than previously. You need to understand the meaning of words before you engage in arguments.