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  1. #301
    Anyone saying WotLK was 'harder' than BFA is delusional or a troll. Possibly both.

    I will say that while raid fights are generally better these days (with the engine able to do more stuff), that I DO think some raids have been leaning towards the "strangely too simple" side. Antornus and especially Uldir have had a lot of "I can't believe these fights are so stupid and easy". Mythic Taloc feels like what a normal mode WotLK boss felt like, lol. Heroic Taloc feels like a weird 5 man dungeon boss being fought by 10+ people. Fetid Devourer, even on Mythic, straight up feels like a motherfucking Molten Core boss (at least as a DPS, tanks at least have to worry about a swap mechanic I guess).

    I think raiding has strangely gotten a little easier. I didn't raid in Legion outside of Antornus and I've been raiding as a Rogue since Antornus (and will continue to do so through BFA) so we'll see if fights get anymore sophisticated than what we saw with Uldir.

  2. #302
    Quote Originally Posted by Exquis View Post
    To this date i can't think of a raid that felt more difficult to beat as a group than Ulduar. These days even shit-tier guilds beat most if not all of the mythic bosses before the next tier.
    We're currently at 1612 guilds that have beaten Mythic G'huun; compare that to previous tiers: Ulduar itself had 1566 guilds clear Alone in the Darkness (Yogg +0) which is actually incredibly comparable. Unfortunately since the merge we're unable to track who was in 10 or 25m groups. 2527 guilds completed heroic Anub in ToGC, with 1282 of them completing it without a single death in 25m. Counting 10m, 36280 kills on heroic and 19013 Insanity runs done. That doesn't look like an incredibly difficult raid tier. 1101 guilds completed Heroic LK in 25 man groups and 5664 completed it in 10 man, again all fairly comparable to current raid content numbers for completion. For Tier 11 we'll go with Sinestra, the most difficult/least killed end raid boss, and 2147 guilds finished her off as well. 1374 in 10 man and 685 in 25 man for Sinestra; if you go by Nefarian we're in the 3k+ range for guilds killing him on heroic.

    Heroic Rag was a joke compared to other raid tiers. 6666 guilds in 10 man but only 491 in 25 man; the raid was incredibly unbalanced and skewed toward 10 man groups. The same thing was the case in Dragon Soul with 9059 kills in 10 man and only 1191 kills in 25 man, but 1191 in 25m is still quite comparable to the 1612 of Mythic G'huun. You're comparing up to 29775 players completing Dragon Soul up to 32240 players completing G'huun. MoP? Heroic Sha of Fear: 1491 in 10m, only 303 in 25m. Again, an expansion with a very unbalanced setup toward 10m groups. Throne? 4750 Ra-den 10m kills, 368 in 25m. This is the reason that flex mode was implemented during this expansion; they found it impossible to properly balance between such drastic differences in group sizes. 2861 10m Garrosh kills, 1026 25m Garrosh kills. These are all using heroic mode, which is the equivalent to current Mythic content that you seem to think everyone is completing.

    WoD: 20 man mythic only. Now we'll see some number changes right? 2026 Blackhand kills, 2850 Archimonde kills. Hmmm, those are both easier to kill than G'huun. Legion maybe? 2003 Gul'dan kills, 892 Kil'jaeden kills, 1748 Argus kills. Overall pretty comparable numbers again other than Kil'jaeden which is a complete bitch of a boss fight to be perfectly honest; I'm not surprised it was under 1k guilds.

    So what I'm seeing throughout literally every single tier is completely comparable numbers literally from as far back as Wowprogress can track. You're looking at, in general, between 1000-2000 guilds clearing all current content every single tier, with 10m raids being much higher generally. Outside of the handful of outlying bosses (Ra-den, Kil'jaeden, Sha of Fear) where 25m was incredibly punishing, every single tier has been completed by a very normal amount of players as it always has been. You're pulling your anecdotal evidence right out of your ass when there's hard evidence to go off of on an easy to find website.

    Even the part where you talk about raid level gear from badges is incorrect; Isle of Quel'danas with the Sunwell Plateau patch added that with Badges of Justice giving gear equivalent to Black Temple raid gear (very close in ilvl, like 5-10 lower), which was followed up by Emblems of Frost and Valor in Wrath which let you fill in belt/boot/OH slots during Naxx, then more in Ulduar, then more in ToC (even allowing the purchase of low level tier gear) and then more into ICC.

  3. #303
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiny212 View Post
    WOTLK was stupidly hardcore compared to current game. get out.
    I'm sorry what...did you play during wrath?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by korijenkins View Post
    If you think the current content is more difficult than anything in Wrath, you're a fool.
    .
    Anddd another one who has no idea what he's talking about

  4. #304
    Back in wotlk, BC and vanilla wow was a MMO, now its a solo game with the option to play with others.

    You can get the the highest possible ilvl and best gear by playing the game completely solo.
    Wow is not a MMO, it's a single player game with the option for co-op.

  5. #305
    Dreadlord Alkizon's Avatar
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    Do you even understand (both of you) that you're now rest against understanding definition of "content"? Ie, you are arguing and comparing things without convinced of sameness of your understanding of this concept. Ie, your discussion is easily killed by one simple phrase: a lot of dif.modes is progress, not content (these concepts aren't interchangeable now, also scaling is none of both). But progress itself in modern interpretation is simplified to obtain items of a certain level - here progress ends. They offered you artifacts first, and now AA and neck as a substitute for progress, but NOT CONTENT.

    We dealt with this many times when we were arguing about M+ and about modern raids design (+(+)+(+/+/+/+)+(+/+/+)+/+(+/+/+)). I also mentioned it a little here, but apparently I overdid it and most people ignored the message due to its size:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    In fact, WotLK in some sense was very much tolerant (compared to Legion&Co) due to that there was a certain height (ceiling/temporary limit) of growth in everything, which means that person could work, then relax a little, then switch to twink and work again, go back to main and relax again and so several times during single expansion without any rush (both PvE and PvP). Do you feel this now? From my own experience, this is main thing that most people did before project "commercialization", somewhere between BC and Legion. But problem is that faster game "goes" (and "faster faster" is now its basic philosophy), the more often switch happen, which means that period of fun is shorter, and the higher soft cap is (under "soft cap" I mean: average stair to which specific player can climb without changing own game style intensity/complexity - current amount of content that can consume and depth of progress that own abilities' level allows to reach; as part of this, stuff that happens now is even more pitiable, since all content is consumed easily through easiest difficulty, and progress, which's indicator are equipment(ilvl)+AP, isn't attainable in principle by virtue of mechanics (process is accessible to all regardless of ability and experience, since doesn't require any such stuff to participate (=borderless in terms of content), but is unachievable for anyone); don't forget that current average player is like a dog in "food absorption" framework - doesn't know own measure, because game doesn't allow/teach to determine it), so the less it happens during one expansion. What follows from all this - total number of once average player's "fun"-hours inevitably decreases and "work"-hours increases... Ladies and gentlemen, it's time to complain to trade unions!
    So if a lot of dif.modes isn't content, then you should compare the easiest difficulty for particular “content” for adequacy of your discussion (precisely when discussing content difficulty), but not the most complex one. It's normal vs LFR and now think about what is it for Ulduar. Do you both understand this?

    But if you want to compare progress difficulty, here is a smarter maze, because see the quote: now "all content is consumed easily through easiest difficulty, and progress, which's indicator are equipment(ilvl)+AP, isn't attainable in principle by virtue of mechanics (process is accessible to all regardless of ability and experience, since doesn't require any such stuff to participate (=borderless in terms of content), but is unachievable for anyone)". They simply missing development "ceiling" in current design (not only for a particular player due to limited time and opportunities/abilities, but in general for all). There is no end for "progress" for anyone and since there is no end, so there is no goal to reach that end, which was (still is! I'm not talking specifically about this game) main playing motivator for most people. That is, developer’s trick isn't to make it unattainable in principle, but so that it can be reached by average at a certain time defined by devs (even if this time is transferred to next expansion for some and for some in advance of this deadline), and concepts of progress and content shouldn't be separated here, their division is artificial and vicious for this particular game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    For reference: last boss killing at any level of complexity, taking into account current design, is the end of “raid” content (doesn't metter if it M or LFR), and progress due to budding it out as separate concept is now associated exclusively with set of BIS gear for current expansion stage (in some sense, it also did before, but it was limited by “content” earlier - steps of testing your abilities and accumulated knowledge/motility/social factor (friends' help/buying), but now it's not - no reason, no motivation, apparently, challenge is clearly not working when it only one motivator, curiosity/interest and envy are much stronger ones).

    Therefore, you get all final content in LFR, and progress continues by freebie “hatching” daily/weekly quests and by going to easiest of "profitable" mystics available to you (not you, but average player, also, judging by forum, not only average...) - with minimal for you labor costs (= you get progress in exchange for subscription, very slow and almost uncontrollable (what is also absolutely true for those who're truly involved in difficultest progress stages), but... which cancels bar for your skills that you had to overcome back then), which still “keeps” you with its accessibility until you realize that you're mired in routine of useless progress for you in terms of content, and then you'll understand that this all turns into challenge/E-sports, which not driving by curiosity or interest in content meaning, this could be enough for someone especially if game holds gameplay bar, but somehow I strongly doubt this last in relation to current game *looking at even if not accurate, but assumptions regarding subscribers number*
    MORE HERE (kind of tl;dr HERE)

    So, what did you decide to talk about?

    ps. I'd also discuss their abnormal simplification/understanding of "progress" in current design, for it's "stupidity follows stupidity" in this sense, but it won't be appropriate here in my opinion, just redundant.
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2019-07-22 at 06:36 AM.
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  6. #306
    TL;DR: Heroes of the Storms is a MOBA made for people that does not like MOBAs. BfA is a MMORPG made for people that does not like MMORPGs.

  7. #307
    Dreadlord Alkizon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiiiMiii View Post
    TL;DR: Heroes of the Storms is a MOBA made for people that does not like MOBAs. BfA is a MMORPG made for people that does not like MMORPGs.
    You should put it into the OP
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  8. #308
    Quote Originally Posted by Cronovey View Post
    We're currently at 1612 guilds that have beaten Mythic G'huun; compare that to previous tiers: Ulduar itself had 1566 guilds clear Alone in the Darkness (Yogg +0) which is actually incredibly comparable.
    I have doubts about this number.
    Alone in the Darkness (25man version) had its first kill roughly 3 months(!) after Patch 3.1 release.

    So if we're looking at the 4-5 Month frame where Ulduar was actually "current content", i do not believe that over 1500 Guilds then went on to kill Yogg+0 that quickly, even with we apply the timeframe of mythic Uldir, i do not believe the number comes even close.

    Yogg+0 was farmed hard once ICC was out and the gear made the boss piss easy to farm, since it awarded a unique mount, incentive to do was relatively high.

  9. #309
    Quote Originally Posted by MiiiMiii View Post
    TL;DR: Heroes of the Storms is a MOBA made for people that does not like MOBAs. BfA is a MMORPG made for people that does not like MMORPGs.
    Wow was a MMO made for people too casual for MMO (success).

    Wow today is a single player game for people who sometimes wants to group up.

  10. #310
    Quote Originally Posted by Cronovey View Post
    We're currently at 1612 guilds that have beaten Mythic G'huun; compare that to previous tiers: Ulduar itself had 1566 guilds clear Alone in the Darkness (Yogg +0) which is actually incredibly comparable. Unfortunately since the merge we're unable to track who was in 10 or 25m groups. 2527 guilds completed heroic Anub in ToGC, with 1282 of them completing it without a single death in 25m. Counting 10m, 36280 kills on heroic and 19013 Insanity runs done. That doesn't look like an incredibly difficult raid tier. 1101 guilds completed Heroic LK in 25 man groups and 5664 completed it in 10 man, again all fairly comparable to current raid content numbers for completion. For Tier 11 we'll go with Sinestra, the most difficult/least killed end raid boss, and 2147 guilds finished her off as well. 1374 in 10 man and 685 in 25 man for Sinestra; if you go by Nefarian we're in the 3k+ range for guilds killing him on heroic.

    Heroic Rag was a joke compared to other raid tiers. 6666 guilds in 10 man but only 491 in 25 man; the raid was incredibly unbalanced and skewed toward 10 man groups. The same thing was the case in Dragon Soul with 9059 kills in 10 man and only 1191 kills in 25 man, but 1191 in 25m is still quite comparable to the 1612 of Mythic G'huun. You're comparing up to 29775 players completing Dragon Soul up to 32240 players completing G'huun. MoP? Heroic Sha of Fear: 1491 in 10m, only 303 in 25m. Again, an expansion with a very unbalanced setup toward 10m groups. Throne? 4750 Ra-den 10m kills, 368 in 25m. This is the reason that flex mode was implemented during this expansion; they found it impossible to properly balance between such drastic differences in group sizes. 2861 10m Garrosh kills, 1026 25m Garrosh kills. These are all using heroic mode, which is the equivalent to current Mythic content that you seem to think everyone is completing.

    WoD: 20 man mythic only. Now we'll see some number changes right? 2026 Blackhand kills, 2850 Archimonde kills. Hmmm, those are both easier to kill than G'huun. Legion maybe? 2003 Gul'dan kills, 892 Kil'jaeden kills, 1748 Argus kills. Overall pretty comparable numbers again other than Kil'jaeden which is a complete bitch of a boss fight to be perfectly honest; I'm not surprised it was under 1k guilds.

    So what I'm seeing throughout literally every single tier is completely comparable numbers literally from as far back as Wowprogress can track. You're looking at, in general, between 1000-2000 guilds clearing all current content every single tier, with 10m raids being much higher generally. Outside of the handful of outlying bosses (Ra-den, Kil'jaeden, Sha of Fear) where 25m was incredibly punishing, every single tier has been completed by a very normal amount of players as it always has been. You're pulling your anecdotal evidence right out of your ass when there's hard evidence to go off of on an easy to find website.

    Even the part where you talk about raid level gear from badges is incorrect; Isle of Quel'danas with the Sunwell Plateau patch added that with Badges of Justice giving gear equivalent to Black Temple raid gear (very close in ilvl, like 5-10 lower), which was followed up by Emblems of Frost and Valor in Wrath which let you fill in belt/boot/OH slots during Naxx, then more in Ulduar, then more in ToC (even allowing the purchase of low level tier gear) and then more into ICC.

    You realize there are ever changing factors? Like the size of the playerbase and the amount of time a content stay relevant, as well as the extend of direct and indirect nerfs? 2k kills out of 11m subs on a mid-expansion boss that was relevant for half a year is a world of difference to 2k kills out of 5m subs for an end of expansion boss that was "relevant" for 1 year and got nerfed half a dozen times. Without context your numbers are close to meaningless.

    Quote Originally Posted by MiiiMiii View Post
    TL;DR: Heroes of the Storms is a MOBA made for people that does not like MOBAs. BfA is a MMORPG made for people that does not like MMORPGs.
    How do you know what the average MMORP user likes?
    Last edited by Alphatorg; 2019-01-19 at 02:08 PM.

  11. #311
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiny212 View Post
    WOTLK was stupidly hardcore compared to current game. get out.
    No it want'. WOTLK was not even in teh same zip code as "stupidly hardcore". Nothing about it was hardcore. You don't know what you are talking about.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Koken View Post
    Back in wotlk, BC and vanilla wow was a MMO, now its a solo game with the option to play with others.

    You can get the the highest possible ilvl and best gear by playing the game completely solo.
    Wow is not a MMO, it's a single player game with the option for co-op.
    I can get a full set of mythic gear without a group? Where?

    You really need to quit while you are behind.

  12. #312
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiny212 View Post
    Again, try to look beyond top raids, how much time did you spend in top raids vs, lvling, pvping, entry level raids etc. I'd take Naxx fucking 10 over world quests ANY day.
    i wouldnt, because a whole wing in naxx has less mechanics than one boss in uldir
    Last edited by valky94; 2019-01-19 at 02:59 PM.

  13. #313
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertMugabe View Post
    Like cmon Naxx 10 overall was about as hard as the heroic dungeons (which were already very easy). I remember that very well.
    And was first cleared with T6 sets mostly btw. The thing about wotlk was just that health pools were very small compared to the dmg we dealt/received/could heal. I remember very well that Lava Burst for shaman, was dealing more damage than what it dealt in BfA. And a T10 guys healthpool was around 30-35k for nontanks, greater por pvp gear but you get the idea. Health bars jumped a lot, but were not really difficult to fill again with a couple swift heals, even from almost dead. It was perhaps harder than usual for dps because they had a shorter timeframe to get out of bad stuff. But for tanks and healers, technique/throughput-wise, quite the same. There came a point as healer that the only thing you did was spam the biggest heal you had, because gear and talents allowed you to regen more by actively casting than resting.

  14. #314
    Quote Originally Posted by Spiel View Post
    And was first cleared with T6 sets mostly btw. The thing about wotlk was just that health pools were very small compared to the dmg we dealt/received/could heal. I remember very well that Lava Burst for shaman, was dealing more damage than what it dealt in BfA. And a T10 guys healthpool was around 30-35k for nontanks, greater por pvp gear but you get the idea. Health bars jumped a lot, but were not really difficult to fill again with a couple swift heals, even from almost dead. It was perhaps harder than usual for dps because they had a shorter timeframe to get out of bad stuff. But for tanks and healers, technique/throughput-wise, quite the same. There came a point as healer that the only thing you did was spam the biggest heal you had, because gear and talents allowed you to regen more by actively casting than resting.
    Yeah, they've only addressed this issue in cata when they massively buffed everyone's health pools (and again in MoP)

  15. #315
    The Lightbringer Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertMugabe View Post
    Yeah, they've only addressed this issue in cata when they massively buffed everyone's health pools (and again in MoP)
    Yep, they buffed everyone's HP by like 200% and nerfed healing by like 75%, so healing in Cata, especially the early part, sucked big time for anybody who wasn't a paladin (DP and Cata's tuning for LoD were OP af).

    Imo one of the problems of the current game is that they've tried too hard to cater to the very hardcore AND to the very casual, leaving everybody else out in the cold.
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  16. #316
    I think what people (at least my view) mean about LK being better than anything since was the gameplay, the systems, there's honestly a reason* that numbers have been going down since then.

    Well, coupled with arguably one of the best raid tiers, and difficulty systems.

    *The only non-game-related reason could be, was LK around the time of the rise of current generation, instant gratification etc?
    Last edited by alturic; 2019-01-19 at 04:16 PM.

  17. #317
    Quote Originally Posted by Puremallace View Post
    This ENTIRE thing falls apart when you realize the most casual friendly expansion Wrath that people glorify these days was HYPER casual friendly and had over 11 million subs.
    It pretty much had that sub count by the end of BC, stagnated for a bit, had an alright influx by the end and then the philosophy really cemented by cata which you can then see the rapid decline. Also leveling in Wrath 0-80 was still basically the same as it was in the previous 2 expansions with some slightly heavier xp gains. So this idea that because Wrath started the "HYPER casual friendly" mentality while having a high player count completely ignores years and years of player build up and retention among other things like remaining mechanics from the games legacy that still kept much of it rewarding in a long run leveling kind of experience. Wrath didn't go from 0 to 11 million all by its own as if the previous 2 versions never existed, so don't act like it did. People who defend live this way seem to never grasp 99% of the nuance of the situation, acting like Wrath is the equivalent the next 8 years of game development and philosophy while ignoring everything that came before it.

  18. #318
    Quote Originally Posted by Cronovey View Post
    We're currently at 1612 guilds that have beaten Mythic G'huun; compare that to previous tiers: Ulduar itself had 1566 guilds clear Alone in the Darkness (Yogg +0) which is actually incredibly comparable. Unfortunately since the merge we're unable to track who was in 10 or 25m groups. 2527 guilds completed heroic Anub in ToGC, with 1282 of them completing it without a single death in 25m. Counting 10m, 36280 kills on heroic and 19013 Insanity runs done. That doesn't look like an incredibly difficult raid tier. 1101 guilds completed Heroic LK in 25 man groups and 5664 completed it in 10 man, again all fairly comparable to current raid content numbers for completion. For Tier 11 we'll go with Sinestra, the most difficult/least killed end raid boss, and 2147 guilds finished her off as well. 1374 in 10 man and 685 in 25 man for Sinestra; if you go by Nefarian we're in the 3k+ range for guilds killing him on heroic.

    Heroic Rag was a joke compared to other raid tiers. 6666 guilds in 10 man but only 491 in 25 man; the raid was incredibly unbalanced and skewed toward 10 man groups. The same thing was the case in Dragon Soul with 9059 kills in 10 man and only 1191 kills in 25 man, but 1191 in 25m is still quite comparable to the 1612 of Mythic G'huun. You're comparing up to 29775 players completing Dragon Soul up to 32240 players completing G'huun. MoP? Heroic Sha of Fear: 1491 in 10m, only 303 in 25m. Again, an expansion with a very unbalanced setup toward 10m groups. Throne? 4750 Ra-den 10m kills, 368 in 25m. This is the reason that flex mode was implemented during this expansion; they found it impossible to properly balance between such drastic differences in group sizes. 2861 10m Garrosh kills, 1026 25m Garrosh kills. These are all using heroic mode, which is the equivalent to current Mythic content that you seem to think everyone is completing.

    WoD: 20 man mythic only. Now we'll see some number changes right? 2026 Blackhand kills, 2850 Archimonde kills. Hmmm, those are both easier to kill than G'huun. Legion maybe? 2003 Gul'dan kills, 892 Kil'jaeden kills, 1748 Argus kills. Overall pretty comparable numbers again other than Kil'jaeden which is a complete bitch of a boss fight to be perfectly honest; I'm not surprised it was under 1k guilds.

    So what I'm seeing throughout literally every single tier is completely comparable numbers literally from as far back as Wowprogress can track. You're looking at, in general, between 1000-2000 guilds clearing all current content every single tier, with 10m raids being much higher generally. Outside of the handful of outlying bosses (Ra-den, Kil'jaeden, Sha of Fear) where 25m was incredibly punishing, every single tier has been completed by a very normal amount of players as it always has been. You're pulling your anecdotal evidence right out of your ass when there's hard evidence to go off of on an easy to find website.

    Even the part where you talk about raid level gear from badges is incorrect; Isle of Quel'danas with the Sunwell Plateau patch added that with Badges of Justice giving gear equivalent to Black Temple raid gear (very close in ilvl, like 5-10 lower), which was followed up by Emblems of Frost and Valor in Wrath which let you fill in belt/boot/OH slots during Naxx, then more in Ulduar, then more in ToC (even allowing the purchase of low level tier gear) and then more into ICC.
    You're pretty much proving my point about Ulduar by saying it has the same amount of guild clears as G'huun despite the playerbase being way larger back then. Oh, and ontop of that, i said THAT FELT more difficult. That being my feelings and my opinion, but nice try friendo.

  19. #319
    Quote Originally Posted by Exquis View Post
    You're pretty much proving my point about Ulduar by saying it has the same amount of guild clears as G'huun despite the playerbase being way larger back then. Oh, and ontop of that, i said THAT FELT more difficult. That being my feelings and my opinion, but nice try friendo.
    We don't know whether sub loss since then has been the same across different kinds of players. They could have lost more casual players than hardcores.
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  20. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    We don't know whether sub loss since then has been the same across different kinds of players. They could have lost more casual players than hardcores.
    I'd expect it tbh. Not only the casual crowd is bigger in numbers than the hardcore one, but also much more prone to leaving... "Subs are cyclical", as some !#$%&/&/ dev said not long ago.
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