Prediction: Sylvanas unites the horde by betraying it

[Arrashi]

Does that mean that saurfang and baine will be chanting "She will not divide us" ?

[kamuimac]

Full disclosure: This is 100% extrapolation and speculation, but it’s one that hit me right in the face as I was contemplating various subtext elements of the current horde storyline, and I felt like writing it out and sharing it.

The horde dichotomy currently personifying the split in the faction is one that Saurfang warns the player would be unfortunate and unpleasant: honor or loyalty.

Honor is very much a self-validated, arguably nebulous trait that the individual defines and adheres to in their own way. Sometimes honor does indeed mean breaking an oath in the name of a clear moral decision based entirely on subjective, emotional circumstance. It is individualism, which is truly the heart of the horde. WoW’s writers can’t really define or more importantly validate honor for you, they can only give you examples that you interpret for yourself and your character.

Where honor is nebulous, internal and individual, loyalty is pretty cut and dry: “I swore to this other individual, I value this other individual, I will follow them where they lead me, because I am loyal.” WoW can’t really define loyalty for you because it defines itself... but they do control how valid it is when the object of your loyalty is their NPC to direct.

To betray honor you must betray yourself. Loyalty is a two way street. Loyalty is about trust...

...And right now, the object of the horde’s loyalty is a notably scheming, tactically brilliant, potentially paranoid military genius sitting in the hot seat of one of the two greatest powers on Azeroth.

The choice for the horde is honor or loyalty. WoW have tried their best to manifest this choice with crossroad moments divided between the characters’s word in their oath to the Warchief, and a more nebulous, “morally right” option that breaks that loyalty. Those siding with Sylvanas are framed as loyal to the throne, loyal to the office of Warchief, loyal above all else. If you side against “team honor,” you are not cast as a Sylvanas fanboy, you are following orders. You are loyal. You presumably and potentially hate “the traitor Saurfang” because he is not loyal. Loyalty demands trust.

...And loyalty/trust is, once again, a two way street.

Those characters valuing loyalty above all are placing all of their trust in the hands of someone who, completely within her established character, could turn on them if it served her purposes. Those characters valuing loyalty above all else are also the ones that would presumably feel betrayal most keenly, most painfully. Those remaining loyal to the Warchief even through the burning of Teldrassil and beyond clearly have staked a lot on the trust they have in her. If WoW wants to put absolutely every sanely motivated character in the horde on the same side of the debate, they would, and I predict they shall, have the Warchief directly, personally and unquestionably betray the horde player character.

Those siding with honor have never needed a reason to question Sylvanas. Ever since Teldrassil, they’ve been distancing themselves from her. Those siding with loyalty, however, would immediately have a newly white-hot reason to not only question the Warchief, but want her struck down for committing the most unforgivable sin: A breach of trust.

If you want specifics as to how this would play out, I could even see Saurfang, Zekhan or Baine bailing out “team honor” from the predicament of this betrayal, whether that be breaking out of imprisonment or whatever. Conversely, those who chose loyalty could potentially find themselves with a different ally, an ally that ultimately finds themselves paying the ultimate price for assisting the character, an ally that’s been side-eyeing and hesitating, again, since Teldrassil: Nathanos.

WoW has been foreshadowing this moment for some time. Prince Farondis cautioned us never to show blind loyalty, especially to our leaders. I think the payoff on that message is going to unite the horde *in-character.* Of course there will be *players* screaming at the screen that this is dumb, this is shoehorned and out of character, but is it? Would it really be out of Sylvanas’ character? The Sylvanas who told an orc soldier she’d never use blight and laughed to her aides that of course they’d use blight seconds later?

I don’t expect all horde players to enjoy this potential plot point, but in character, if you divide the horde over the line of “honor or loyalty,” and betray them... there isn’t a sane *character* in the horde who would support a disloyal, dishonorable Warchief.

I think that’s, potentially, exactly where we are going.

we have at least 3 bigger enemies them legion now -> old gods roaming azeroth , light (with its crusade of making everyone into ligghtforged ) and void coming next expansion

and people still focus on meaningless faction war ?

like really ?

do you really want pussy warchief like Baine or broken old one like Saurfang ?

be real

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I've still got my money on "She turns into a giant, glowing space angel to stop a Void Lord from destroying Azeroth, thereby completely absolving her of decades of horrific experiments and war crimes including at least one attempt to wipe out an entire species through one act of painfully schlocky 'heroism' that was ultimately motivated by a mixture of self-preservation and a badly-shoehorned romance subplot." Especially now that Nathanos is getting screen time over other long-standing Horde champions so he can be Sylvanas's yes-man mouthpiece.

i mean if they managed to rebrand Ilidan after so many years by basicly rewriting half of initial WoW story sure why not

i mean she died only 3 times so far - what is 1 or 2 more deaths in this case - blizzard will always revive her somehow.

[Pillerina]

Need more posts like this on the subject. It's refreshing to see someone actually using history to analyze the current climate in WoW, rather than viewing it through the lens of modern morality (or whatever it is people are using to form such vitriolic opinions on the matter).

Truth, in a game with dragons the biggest historical fiction is the concept of honor.

[thottstation]

Blizzard is in the business of edutainment now.

They believe in using their IPs to deliver messages of positive social change. They will not allow their first female warchief to be a black mark in WoW history.


MY PREDICTION: Sylvanas will be betrayed by the Horde (a revolution lead by toxically masculine Saurfang) and killed.

Then Something Bad™ will happen and everyone will realize she was RIGHT all along, and the toxic male NPC's (and gamers) should have trusted her, and not revolted just because she was a woman in authority doing what appeared to them to be a bad job as leader.

They should have listened.
They should have believed.
Now the hour of the Old Gods has come.



This does THREE things Blizzard wants:

1. Sends a message to the male playerbase that you should not rise up against strong female leadership, rallied by a belligerent toxic male who espouses "traditional" values, just because you THINK she's ruining everything you worked for and believe in.

2. Retires the "sexy villainess" Sylvanas character, which in modern day is extremely problematic, despite her newly-covered up model."Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

3. Paves the way for leadership of the Forsaken to be claimed by sensibly-dressed Lilian Voss, who has recently (and inexplicably) become pro-Horde, and must halt the fracturing of her people by Lightforged-Undead Calia Menethil's calls for a new life.

[Omedon]

Blizzard is in the business of edutainment now.

They believe in using their IPs to deliver messages of social change.

See I actually agree with you on this front, I just think the message they're pushing is different ("Stronger Together!" "Hope and Change!"). The feminism angle is an interesting one though!

I really don't see them putting "you can not kill hope" on the table and the outcome being "SHE WAS RIGHT ALL ALONG! HOPE IS BAD /NOOSEJUMP!"

[SoundOfGuns]

Yeah, sucking Terran Gregory's dick on stream is his biggest accomplishment.

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Is this the Politically Correct version of weeb?

...i thought weep was some other term for some remarkably weak guy? I have no fucking clue what you kids say anymore, leave me. Im old.

[Louz]

Blizzard is in the business of edutainment now.

They believe in using their IPs to deliver messages of positive social change. They will not allow their first female warchief to be a black mark in WoW history.


MY PREDICTION: Sylvanas will be betrayed by the Horde (a revolution lead by toxically masculine Saurfang) and killed.

Then Something Bad™ will happen and everyone will realize she was RIGHT all along, and the toxic male NPC's (and gamers) should have trusted her, and not revolted just because she was a woman in authority doing what appeared to them to be a bad job as leader.

They should have listened.
They should have believed.
Now the hour of the Old Gods has come.

This does THREE things Blizzard wants:

1. Sends a message to the male playerbase that you should not rise up against strong female leadership, rallied by a belligerent toxic male who espouses "traditional" values, just because you THINK she's ruining everything you worked for and believe in.

2. Retires the "sexy villainess" Sylvanas character, which in modern day is extremely problematic, despite her newly-covered up model."Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

3. Paves the way for leadership of the Forsaken to be claimed by sensibly-dressed Lilian Voss, who has recently (and inexplicably) become pro-Horde, and must halt the fracturing of her people by Lightforged-Undead Calia Menethil's calls for a new life.

Hmm dunno, I'm playing horde character for sake of completionism, but it feels like they intentionally made Sylvanus an insufferable cunt. Also the first part of the horde war campaign revolves around singlehandedly plowing through alliance army and rezzing them as obedient horde. Like that captain whatshername, who becomes best buddy with Voss - "you're one of us now :^) let me help you with your transition to help us destroy your people :^)) they wouldn't like you anyway now that we killed you and rezzed you, so you're literally a walking corpse :^)))" I mean what is that supposed to tell anyway? Either that sylvanus is a deceptive cunt or just garbage writing.

Saurfang is far from "toxically masculine". In fact, as hard as I'm trying to recall one, I can't think of any male NPC that would come across as "toxically masculine". They're either non-conflict, obedient, or just keep going about honor. Maybe Flynn, if you classify banter as toxic masculinity. Other than that, that one female orc that pops up every time you walk into an assault quest is damn fucking toxic and masculine, alright.

[Syegfryed]

Why does the Horde need a villain to unify them? What keeps them from unifying?.

Because elves and undeads players still want to be the edgelords and be totally opposed to the faction theme and values that they chose to join, thats why the plot of the horde will never be better like it was in the past.

- - - Updated - - -

Blizzard is in the business of edutainment now.

They believe in using their IPs to deliver messages of positive social change. They will not allow their first female warchief to be a black mark in WoW history.


MY PREDICTION: Sylvanas will be betrayed by the Horde (a revolution lead by toxically masculine Saurfang) and killed.

Then Something Bad™ will happen and everyone will realize she was RIGHT all along, and the toxic male NPC's (and gamers) should have trusted her, and not revolted just because she was a woman in authority doing what appeared to them to be a bad job as leader.

They should have listened.
They should have believed.
Now the hour of the Old Gods has come.



This does THREE things Blizzard wants:

1. Sends a message to the male playerbase that you should not rise up against strong female leadership, rallied by a belligerent toxic male who espouses "traditional" values, just because you THINK she's ruining everything you worked for and believe in.

2. Retires the "sexy villainess" Sylvanas character, which in modern day is extremely problematic, despite her newly-covered up model."Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

3. Paves the way for leadership of the Forsaken to be claimed by sensibly-dressed Lilian Voss, who has recently (and inexplicably) become pro-Horde, and must halt the fracturing of her people by Lightforged-Undead Calia Menethil's calls for a new life.

holy fuck man, you went so deep that i think you are right, thats pretty scary

[KaPe]

Truth, in a game with dragons the biggest historical fiction is the concept of honor.

Just because it's fiction, doesn't mean that concept of honor doesn't exist. People love to laugh at honor as some sort of "naivety" that is "useless during true war" - except it goes deeper than that. It's a set of rules that both sides are supposed to respect, so the conflict does not escalate into total annihilation.

If "honor" seems unrealistic or childish to you, think M.A.D., except with magic. Jaina already wanted to flood Orgrimarr, now imagine every spellcaster doing the same on a smaller scale. All the food supplies are poisoned, cities are burned with hellfire, no one takes any prisoners, every scrap of land is completely devastated. Also, the first think Alliance spies would do in the Undercity is blowing up blight tanks/gas masks, so no siege is necessary as everyone dies in their own poison.

'Course, this wouldn't happen in the story proper, since the Horde would be promptly annihilated... but that's what would happen in an actual conflict if one side kept pushing the boundaries too far.

[Pillerina]

Just because it's fiction, doesn't mean that concept of honor doesn't exist. People love to laugh at honor as some sort of "naivety" that is "useless during true war" - except it goes deeper than that. It's a set of rules that both sides are supposed to respect, so the conflict does not escalate into total annihilation.

If "honor" seems unrealistic or childish to you, think M.A.D., except with magic. Jaina already wanted to flood Orgrimarr, now imagine every spellcaster doing the same on a smaller scale. All the food supplies are poisoned, cities are burned with hellfire, no one takes any prisoners, every scrap of land is completely devastated. Also, the first think Alliance spies would do in the Undercity is blowing up blight tanks/gas masks, so no siege is necessary as everyone dies in their own poison.

'Course, this wouldn't happen in the story proper, since the Horde would be promptly annihilated... but that's what would happen in an actual conflict if one side kept pushing the boundaries too far.

It's actually an invention by colonial powers to explain losses to "inferior nations". But yes, as i adressed in my original post M.A.D is litteraly the only thing ever keeping people from utilizing their entire arsenal. If you're planning all out war that caution is probs thrown out the window.

[Soon-TM]

All the food supplies are poisoned, cities are burned with hellfire, no one takes any prisoners, every scrap of land is completely devastated.

Bring it on, I say. It would be a most interesting background for a new xpac.

[gankhill]

I'm still hoping for a subversion of the Garrosh trope but I'm not sure how it could be done - I do like Taliesen & Evitel's third faction idea, especially since Sylvanas/the Forsaken were always somewhat auxiliary to the other horde races

[Omedon]

I'm still hoping for a subversion of the Garrosh trope but I'm not sure how it could be done - I do like Taliesen & Evitel's third faction idea, especially since Sylvanas/the Forsaken were always somewhat auxiliary to the other horde races

Honestly a 3rd faction would only work if all barriers between factions were lifted (elsewise they're putting barriers between established communities), so while I think it's unlikely, I'm all for it!

[Kemsa]

Na to be honest i think what blizzard its pulling, its purging the Horde from the old ways of "Honor" and they want to make the Horde the real Dark Horde, the one that humans talk and tell their childs, with Bloodthirsting Orcs than will kill you with their bare hands. Minotaurs that trample Horses, Canibalistic Trolls that will curse you into piles of bones. Undeads that will eat your flesh while you are alive, Beautifull Elven witches and little green monsters that will gouge your eyes while sleeping.

Thats the stories that probably all the alliance tell to their childs, i dont think they say, yeah the green warriors that help the world, they comune with the elements, fathers and mothers of little orckys, Tauren wise and friendly hunters, Trolls that preach for peace and treehugging, undeads that eat salad.

Just think about that, the Horde doesnt have an identity that doesnt belong to the alliance. What we are just "red warriors of azeroth" and the alliance its the "blue warriors of azeroth" vs big evil....? i think that sounds more of "no faction just one nation kinda of thing"

[Voidwielder]

''Hitler defeats the Nazis by starting the Second World War''

[Powerogue]

I feel like we've crossed this road already with her lying about her intentions with the Darkshore campaign to Saurfang and lying to us about the goal of our mission to find Saurfang. The most they could do is do it more dramatically on a choice that's more consequential.

I don’t expect all horde players to enjoy this potential plot point, but in character, if you divide the horde over the line of “honor or loyalty,” and betray them... there isn’t a sane *character* in the horde who would support a disloyal, dishonorable Warchief.

You underestimate the fans. :P You have to remember there were players who wanted to support Garrosh, even after he had turned on the entire Horde and barricaded himself in his room drinking old god juice all day.

[kamuimac]

Just because it's fiction, doesn't mean that concept of honor doesn't exist. People love to laugh at honor as some sort of "naivety" that is "useless during true war" - except it goes deeper than that. It's a set of rules that both sides are supposed to respect, so the conflict does not escalate into total annihilation.

If "honor" seems unrealistic or childish to you, think M.A.D., except with magic. Jaina already wanted to flood Orgrimarr, now imagine every spellcaster doing the same on a smaller scale. All the food supplies are poisoned, cities are burned with hellfire, no one takes any prisoners, every scrap of land is completely devastated. Also, the first think Alliance spies would do in the Undercity is blowing up blight tanks/gas masks, so no siege is necessary as everyone dies in their own poison.

'Course, this wouldn't happen in the story proper, since the Horde would be promptly annihilated... but that's what would happen in an actual conflict if one side kept pushing the boundaries too far.

seems a lot more fun then story of faction conflict in BfA so far

you do realise we are playing World of WARcraft not world of pussycraft ?

[KaPe]

seems a lot more fun then story of faction conflict in BfA so far

you do realise we are playing World of WARcraft not world of pussycraft ?

You do realize that if that happened Horde wouldn't last a month, right? Alliance is filled with overpowered characters that conveniently become braindead in crucial moments so their side doesn't gain overwhelming advantage. Military assets like Vindicaar are conveniently tucked away so Horde doesn't get blasted from orbit. Illidan chose to stay behind so there isn't a third absurdly powerful Night Elf character that should have destroyed the Forsaken in Darkshore. Few torches are appearently enough to turn entire Stormwind ablaze and Jaina is the only one who can save it, instead of killing a whole team of Horde champions. Anduin doesn't want to press any advantage after the newest raid, because Zandalari have a funeral.

And nothing else can happen, because it's two faction MMO and if one of them actually started acting logically, the whole war would already be over. It's a retarded conflict, the "honor" is written in a retarded way and dropping the "honor" part won't happen until faction become more balanced lorewise.

Also, "pussycraft". Very edgy, armchair general sir.