So, item levels are getting spiked for no reason. Again.

[Forogil]

I'll wait for a genuine and less vague answer than yours, thanks.

It was a genuine answer - the main reason for the vagueness is due to the fact that people want new and varied contents; which also explains why catchup mechanism are needed.

[kubaje]

It was a genuine answer - the main reason for the vagueness is due to the fact that people want new and varied contents; which also explains why catchup mechanism are needed.

Again, I wasn't asking you. A vague answer isn't valid. When I ask you what your favorite food is, "food" isn't a valid answer. Stop trying, I don't care about your answer.

[Forogil]

Again, I wasn't asking you.

This is a public forum - if you want to ask someone specific send a PM; don't post here.

When I ask you what your favorite food is, "food" isn't a valid answer. Stop trying, I don't care about your answer.

You don't care about answers at all - since the answers imply that catchup mechanisms are good - since they allow doing varied contents together with others.

And your idea of asking for favorite food suffers from the same problem; some might answer "fish and chips", but only a fool would only serve that. People want varied food, most don't want their current favorite food every day.

[Buildapanda]

because they dont want to design actually interesting content they just want to keep buffing ilvls for the hamsters on the wheel gg

[Dilbon]

But what is varied and interesting content? Raids? Dungeons? Can't have an infinite number of those. I too am very interested to hear what people actually want.

[Ealyssa]

the item level has been well over doubled

We went +200 ilvl in just one raid tier.

Come on. I understand wow players are quite stupid for the most part, but seriously math isn't THAT hard...

NM dungeon : 310
HC dungeon : 325
MM dungeon : 340
MM+ max : 370
NM Uldir : 355
HC Uldir : 370
MM Uldir : 385
NM Battle of Dazar'alor : 385
HC BoD : 400
MM BoD : 415

A jump from 315 to 415 ilvl during Dungeon progress + 2 raids isn't "doubling it" nor "+200 in one tier"

I hope you can finish high school later in your lifes. Good luck with that

[Kagthul]

2-3x the subs? Did you mean 1/5 (at best) to 1/6 of the subs (though it's likely a lot less)? That's what actually happened. You were referring to 12 million people subbed to without any doubt, based on any metric, we'll give you the benefit and just go with the absolute HIGHEST possible estimate and go with 2 million still subbed?

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When 10+ million people quit doing something, sorry for you fanboys out there, but that's legitimate cause for concern.

I think you need to learn to read. I didnt say what you think i said.

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Come on. I understand wow players are quite stupid for the most part, but seriously math isn't THAT hard...

NM dungeon : 310
HC dungeon : 325
MM dungeon : 340
MM+ max : 370
NM Uldir : 355
HC Uldir : 370
MM Uldir : 385
NM Battle of Dazar'alor : 385
HC BoD : 400
MM BoD : 415

A jump from 315 to 415 ilvl during Dungeon progress + 2 raids isn't "doubling it" nor "+200 in one tier"

I hope you can finish high school later in your lifes. Good luck with that

Expac started at 200. Hur durr.

[Ielenia]

Dude people were doing almost all dungeons back in TBC and they were relevant entire expansion. You literaly now defend system what makes players quit game.

Um.... no. They really were not. The only dungeon that was "relevant" by the end of TBC was the Magister's Terrace... and that's because was added literally by the end of TBC together with the Sunwell Plateau raid, after Black Temple. Unless, of course, you count as "relevant" the dungeon dailies that had you kill specific mobs within the dungeons for some badges of justice, because the gear drops from the dungeons were not relevant "throughout the expansion", at all.

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You start fresh and do your mythic dungeons and get full 370 ilvl. Now you do your 385 world quests.

That is not happening. World quest rewards scale to your item level. So if you are at 370 item level, you'll get 370 gear from world quests and emissaries.

[Xath]

You mean like... wow has been since literally vanilla, and every MMO and RPG ever has?
when new content comes out that new content is usually stronger and gives better gear then old easier content...

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yes they did, you didnt play vanilla then if you think dungeons didnt give better gear
in vanilla we got later dungeons liek diremaul which had gear even better then other dungeons, and even better then molten core.
in tbc we got the good old magister that had gear better then gruul and the others
in wotlk we got many new dungeons with gear much better then earlier dungeons, and even some earlier raids.
come end of wotlk you could skip nax, all the solo boss raids, and udluar just by doing the new icc dungeons...

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nice slippery slope.
we shoudlnt add a SINGLE spell because if we do then in like 3 years we will have 10000000 more spells, obviously.

No they didn't they added new dungeons they didn't make deadmines give mc level gear. Also very very few pieces in DM were better than MC loot. MGT was harder than Kara when it first came out unless you overgeared it. Again these are new dungeons it wasn't raised en masse and you didn't get world quests giving raid level gear

[tankbug]

This is good news! You need to up the ilevels, or there would be no reason to get new gear.

[FelPlague]

So why are players quiting in droves and complain about their effort being dimished?

Except they arnt?
againthe liar lying.
show me your evidence, or are we going on 10 lies in a row?

[Pua]

Come on. I understand wow players are quite stupid for the most part, but seriously math isn't THAT hard...

If you’re going to quote someone, quote the full sentence.

My one, for example, stipulates what this expansion starts with; meaning the item level that levelling starts with from level 110.

Not understanding something, then suggesting the person who wrote it finishes high school, tells me all I need to know about your posts, and your attitude.

[Forogil]

My one, for example, stipulates what this expansion starts with; meaning the item level that levelling starts with from level 110.

And you still fail at math, since people who played the previous expansion started this one at lvl 210-250 (or higher?) - not 200, and if you double 200 you get 400 - and currently people are below 395, not well over 400.

The lvl 200 loot at the start of the expansion was a catchup mechanism. They are designed to ensure that people aren't too far behind.

[Pua]

And you still fail at math, since people who played the previous expansion started this one at lvl 210-250 (or higher?) - not 200, and if you double 200 you get 400 - and currently people are below 395, not well over 400.

Sigh.

The majority of players were under 200, because only those who completed Normal raids or above would be at the level you're describing.

As in, the minority of players according to the numbers we can work out or that designers are comfortable admitting.

And I love the fact you're completely ignoring the procs that'll see "maximums" increase randomly.

'Corrections' that are obviously wrong. They're always fun.

[KaPe]

Sigh.

The majority of players were under 200, because only those who completed Normal raids or above would be at the level you're describing.

As in, the minority of players according to the numbers we can work out or that designers are comfortable admitting.

And I love the fact you're completely ignoring the procs that'll see "maximums" increase randomly.

'Corrections' that are obviously wrong. They're always fun.

If you include levelling content, then this is 200 ilvls across two expansions, not a single raid tier. It's obvious bullshit anyway, no one cared about sub-300 gear, the actual 120 content begins with 310 and goes up from there. Raids start at 355 and will got up to 415. At no point is relevant content going up by 200 item levels.

[Elias01]

If you include levelling content, then this is 200 ilvls across two expansions, not a single raid tier. It's obvious bullshit anyway, no one cared about sub-300 gear, the actual 120 content begins with 310 and goes up from there. Raids start at 355 and will got up to 415. At no point is relevant content going up by 200 item levels.

You have to include leveling content.

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the reason blizzard do this is to make raids accessible to everyone.

Back in Vanilla, If you wanted to go raid nax, you had to go through MC > BWL > AQ40 to be able to have an acceptable ilvl for nax. the problem is, by end of vanilla, no one runs MC or BWL anymore. much harder to find guilds or pugs willing to do these runs.

fast forward to today. you can log in with a new character next week and gear up for the new raid outside of raiding to prepare your character.

There was plenty of raids and guilds running MC and BWL.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

Repeating the same mistake again and again, but that gets worse every expac because of the ever increasing number of difficulties.

What mistake just squish item levels again.

[Jambalam]

the reason blizzard do this is to make raids accessible to everyone.

Back in Vanilla, If you wanted to go raid nax, you had to go through MC > BWL > AQ40 to be able to have an acceptable ilvl for nax. the problem is, by end of vanilla, no one runs MC or BWL anymore. much harder to find guilds or pugs willing to do these runs.

fast forward to today. you can log in with a new character next week and gear up for the new raid outside of raiding to prepare your character.

That just simply isn't true, guilds were running ZG, MC, BWL and Ony right up to the end of Vanilla. Just because the guilds progressing through Nax weren't farming MC doesn't mean nobody was. You could very easily progress through the raid content by guild hopping.

[Pua]

fast forward to today. you can log in with a new character next week and gear up for the new raid outside of raiding to prepare your character.

Which is part of the problem.

I don't support the quick-running to current content, because it makes everything before a current patch redundant. That has a number of issues but I'd argue that the main one is current patches aren't big enough for players, particularly when they concentrate solely on raids that are a minority activity.

What mistake just squish item levels again.

Or, alternatively, build a system that doesn't need the squish every two expansions.

Not only would that be a good thing, it'd be a good design choice because it would solve several other problems that I'm going to respond to @Raelbo when I have a bit more time.

[Nestoras]

It is amazing that we reached that far to prove the obvious and still nothing.

In TBC from tier to tier ilv difference was 13 ilv. The range of the gear within the same tier of content was 0 since there was 1 difficulty.

Wrath, added a difficulty raising the range per tier to 13 ilv but it was 19 ilv per mode. Nax 10 was awarding 200 ilv and Ulduar 10 219 ilv.

Then we Trial of The Crusader we had an even bigger inflation by adding Heroic mode, increasing the range within the tier to 27 ilv, still the initial gear from tier to tier remained at 19 ilv difference. (232 for Trial, 251 for ICC).

Now what we have? 370 base LFR gear, 385 normal mode, 400 heroic and 415 Mythic with up to 425 being available through titan forging. Thus the range of the tier reached a wooping 55ilv and the difference per tier of gear from the previous one to 30ilv!

And if you add that to the range of an entire expansion, you have gear inflated out of proportion making the content out of the current raid so trivial, that for the next xpac you have to start the base content from an even lower starting point, difficulty wise, not to have bloody riots from the spoiled "customers"!

There is no comparison whatsoever, still people are arguing there is! It is mind blowing but with the game so dumped down, its only reasonable logic not to be an asset of current playerbase.