1. #1

    8.1 BoD Destruction Stat Weights

    I'm thinking about switching from Affliction to Destruction and came to find a lot of confusion about the current Destruction stat weights (for PvE).

    There seems to be a consensus that Haste is the best stat, even better than Int, but Icyveins lists Mastery as the second best stat and Crit as the worst stat (tied with Vers) - while other sites have Crit or even Vers as second/third best (usually behind Haste and Int).

    Can Mastery or Vers really be better than Crit, despitw Crit offering good point/rating conversions and some extra shard generation ? And why would Verse be suddenly so good ? I'm really confused . . .

  2. #2
    I honestly feel it's Int > Haste > Mastery > Crit = Vers

    Now, this is weird mainly because Chaos Bolt benefits from our additional crit chance% (and honestly, I don't even know what the actual coefficient is that is being calculated to boost CB damage) in addition to crits on immolate getting shards.

    Having said that, I have found much better results when using haste / mastery proc'ing items / trinkets / abilities then when I am using crit variants. I wish I knew why, honestly, I don't. I think with our mastery and the higher it is the "rolls" we get for the additional damage% have a higher ceiling....but also a higher floor. So with more mastery the ranges go from x - y to x+masteryincrease - y+masteryincrease which to me just appears / feels like more damage than straight crit. I honestly don't even know what having 800 crit proc does for chaos bolt. How much additional damage? It feels like next to nothing (almost lower than our azerite trait for chaos bolt).

    Just my 2c and what I have discovered over the course of the exp.

  3. #3
    Stats weights don't mean anything.
    You should sim with raidbots Top Gear to see what is the best upgrade for you.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by crimsonhead View Post
    I honestly feel it's Int > Haste > Mastery > Crit = Vers

    Now, this is weird mainly because Chaos Bolt benefits from our additional crit chance% (and honestly, I don't even know what the actual coefficient is that is being calculated to boost CB damage) in addition to crits on immolate getting shards.

    Having said that, I have found much better results when using haste / mastery proc'ing items / trinkets / abilities then when I am using crit variants. I wish I knew why, honestly, I don't. I think with our mastery and the higher it is the "rolls" we get for the additional damage% have a higher ceiling....but also a higher floor. So with more mastery the ranges go from x - y to x+masteryincrease - y+masteryincrease which to me just appears / feels like more damage than straight crit. I honestly don't even know what having 800 crit proc does for chaos bolt. How much additional damage? It feels like next to nothing (almost lower than our azerite trait for chaos bolt).

    Just my 2c and what I have discovered over the course of the exp.
    Thanks for your input. I guess there is a hidden part to the Destruction Mastery, then, which basically increases your luck on the +dmg dice rolls ?

    @nToxik: You are aware, though, that all simming does is use stat weights from a specific source and recalculate them based on the diminishing returns ? Simming doesn't always give you the correct answer and can't magically use the 100% correct stat weights when it seems to be unclear what those even are atm. for Destruction.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by nToxik View Post
    Stats weights don't mean anything.
    You should sim with raidbots Top Gear to see what is the best upgrade for you.
    This /10char

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by TequilaFlavor View Post
    @nToxik: You are aware, though, that all simming does is use stat weights from a specific source and recalculate them based on the diminishing returns ? Simming doesn't always give you the correct answer and can't magically use the 100% correct stat weights when it seems to be unclear what those even are atm. for Destruction.
    That's not how sims work, no.

    Anyway, my Destruction weights have actually been pretty close together lately (we're talking at most 5% variance from highest to lowest) and so raw stats tend to be the way to go. Sometimes that's ilvl, sometimes that's sockets, and if you're really unsure raidbots is an excellent tool.

  7. #7
    ilvl is a good indicator for most gear aside from trinkets and Azerite. Stats are so close it does not really matter. Treat sockets as 10-15 ilvls depending on item budget they take.

    Top Gear at raidbots is generally an OK idea, but it's sort of misleading this tier with Flashpoint x3 as that is massively undervalued there, so take that into account simming Azerite.

    Pure stat weights is least useful thing to think about, really with all the above. Especially with Destruction where it does not matter really.
    Last edited by Gaidax; 2019-01-30 at 09:31 AM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    ilvl is a good indicator for most gear aside from trinkets and Azerite. Stats are so close it does not really matter. Treat sockets as 10-15 ilvls depending on item budget they take.

    Top Gear at raidbots is generally an OK idea, but it's sort of misleading this tier with Flashpoint x3 as that is massively undervalued there, so take that into account simming Azerite.

    Pure stat weights is least useful thing to think about, really with all the above. Especially with Destruction where it does not matter really.
    You're making good points about secondary stats being close enough to not really worry about them too much, thanks for your input !

    Is only Flashpoint x3 undervalued in your opinion - or also 2x and 1x ?

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by TequilaFlavor View Post
    You're making good points about secondary stats being close enough to not really worry about them too much, thanks for your input !

    Is only Flashpoint x3 undervalued in your opinion - or also 2x and 1x ?
    Top Gear sim undervalues Flashpoint at any level, because you get around 20% uptime for it in sim, while in reality many encounters in BoD allow double that uptime and more, if you're good, significantly boosting this trait value, something that is not seen in sim.

    That's why everyone and their mothers suggest 3xFlashpoint setup now, despite it appearing super mediocre in sims. You can abuse that shit in a way usual ST sim can't.

    Technically you could sim top gear with adds or such, but this is starting to become very murky water there, that's why better to stick to general aim of having 3x Flashpoint and as much ilvl as you can taking sockets into account. This way your gear would likely effectively be top gear anyway.
    Last edited by Gaidax; 2019-01-30 at 12:06 PM.

  10. #10
    I'd look at Warcraftlogs as well as sims to figure out what the best gear setup is. That's the only way you'd really see the Flashpoint thing taking off.

    It looks like Rolling Havoc is making a pretty solid showing as well.

  11. #11
    Its too bad we can't set the flashpoint uptime in raidbots, having a few manual knobs to turn on the site would be nice.
    J. Allen Brack was right all along
    "You think you do, but you don't."

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by netherflame View Post
    Its too bad we can't set the flashpoint uptime in raidbots, having a few manual knobs to turn on the site would be nice.
    You can just enchant something in your simc output with couple hundreds of haste, that's not the best way, but it's something.

    ST sims are a bunch of baloney really anyway.

  13. #13
    As someone who regularly sims stat weights on raidbots and is very meticulous in how much value I put into them, I can with a lot of certainty tell you that there is a very careful balance that needs to be maintained. Depending on your gear it's very possible that crit becomes the most important stat.

    Generally I'd say it's something along the lines of:
    Haste >= Mastery > Vers >= Crit >= Int

    Last edited by Rochana; 2019-02-12 at 06:45 PM.
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  14. #14
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    For destro generally ilevel wins, all stats are pretty close to each other. Your dps isn't going to make or break based on enchants or gems.
    Stat weights are useless, just sim top gear on raidbots.

    Dats it.

  15. #15
    You need to sim as stat weights are generally useless. For the example above, haste isn't nearly as good if you are running 3xEP traits.

  16. #16
    Yeah, but its likely like over 9000% that we gonna receive big fat nerd to FP anytime soon. Building yours gear around low Haste can cost you big time one day.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana View Post
    As someone who regularly sims stat weights on raidbots and is very meticulous in how much value I put into them, I can with a lot of certainty tell you that there is a very careful balance that needs to be maintained.
    stop spouting bs, time is better spent on looking at logs and looking for ways to improve

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Violetti View Post
    stop spouting bs, time is better spent on looking at logs and looking for ways to improve
    What does this comment have to do with stat weights or anything i said?
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana View Post
    What does this comment have to do with stat weights or anything i said?
    I believe the point being given is probably that, on the whole, the average person will gain more DPS by gitting gud than the minor optimizations caring deeply about stat weights will give you. Particularly for Destruction, whose stat weights are very close.

    Like, your fancy reforge plot there has less than five percent gain between its maximum and minimum. Most people aren't going to be in the extremes of a reforge plot, and so going from whatever random mix of stats they have to perfectly optimized ones is a pretty small gain. Thus, for all but the best players it's almost certainly a bigger DPS gain to optimize their play within an encounter than their secondary stats.


    Of course, this is a topic about stat weights so maybe "stat weights don't matter, goodbye!" isn't super-useful, but context is important for stuff like this.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by bio347 View Post
    I believe the point being given is probably that, on the whole, the average person will gain more DPS by gitting gud than the minor optimizations caring deeply about stat weights will give you. Particularly for Destruction, whose stat weights are very close.

    Like, your fancy reforge plot there has less than five percent gain between its maximum and minimum. Most people aren't going to be in the extremes of a reforge plot, and so going from whatever random mix of stats they have to perfectly optimized ones is a pretty small gain. Thus, for all but the best players it's almost certainly a bigger DPS gain to optimize their play within an encounter than their secondary stats.


    Of course, this is a topic about stat weights so maybe "stat weights don't matter, goodbye!" isn't super-useful, but context is important for stuff like this.
    Stat weights are only useful so you can decide 'on the fly' whether a piece of gear is better or not. Not everyone has the luxury of being able to wait 5 minutes, after running a raidbots sim, before they can tell their raidleader whether the item that just dropped is a minor upgrade or not.

    To me this thread is purely about the theoretical subject of Destruction Stat Weights, not about optimizing your performance on a bossfight. That is a whole different and much broader subject and in a sense almost unrelated to the subject at hand, considering there are factors much more important at play there than stat weights. (Gear still matters a lot more than people ever like to admit though)
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