[Horde Perspective Only] Do you like Baine as a character?

[Chillside]

Baine is like the most unlikeable character you are supposed to like.

well said ^

[KrakHed]

I was genuinely stunned to find that Blizzard remembered that the Mag'har are basically the Iron Horde and wouldn't give one fuck about this, cheers on them for that, though I'm 90% sure the line will be changed to some milquetoast whining like all the rest before release.

At least they saved Bob by having him point out the logistical issues and the trouble Baine causes for the tauren which he won't allow to happen for the blood elves. After his whining about ruinous paths I was absolutely sure he'd be the next to take a hollow moral stand for Our Treasure.

I'm pretty sure Lor'themar would love to make a moral stand for "our treasure", but finds it momentarily inconvenient. When the opportunity arises, he'll make his move and that will be that. Blind loyalty has never been his thing, and he's a decent dude with a decent heart. He'll make the right choice when he can, and you'll be angry about him helping "the Alliance".

That's life.

[Super Dickmann]

I think you're right. The only reason its still there is probably, because Golden or other likeminded writers haven't noticed it yet. The same happened to Jaina's interesting first reaction in regards to the Battle of Dazar'Alor, where she wanted to push their advantage. One PTR later, we have current nonsense line of her.

Remember the OG line from Genn where going to Darkshore was actually him rebelling against Our Spiritual Liege and calling him a boy? Which got turned into a meek "I didn't mean to defy you uwu" before release.

Yeah, that's what will happen to Geyarah after she's injected with a few syringes worth of muh honor.

@KrakHed

So long as he doesn't defect or go bail Baine out from prison some of the damage done can be reduced. The others are all beyond saving and have been since we first did this back in Mists. Except Gallywix. He's a genuine treasure.

[KrakHed]

Remember the OG line from Genn where going to Darkshore was actually him rebelling against Our Spiritual Liege and calling him a boy? Which got turned into a meek "I didn't mean to defy you uwu" before release.

Yeah, that's what will happen to Geyarah after she's injected with a few syringes worth of muh honor.

Or maybe Geyarah is just a terrible person like brown orcs tend to be? Realizing that they did a bad thing made the green orcs into better people. The Mag'har were forgiven for no reason. So of course they're still shitheads.

[Super Dickmann]

Or maybe Geyarah is just a terrible person like brown orcs tend to be? Realizing that they did a bad thing made the green orcs into better people. The Mag'har were forgiven for no reason. So of course they're still shitheads.

I have vouched many times over that that's who the Mag'har are because all they changed after WoD was their name. Even when we meet them their first task for you is to put down this season's ogre slave revolt, described in those terms. I've got zero issues with her or their characterization. There's a surprising amount of nuance in the conflict between them and the Lightbound that's entirely absent from the rest of the narrative.

I just don't think that's what Blizzard intend, which is why I'm betting the line will be changed. I'd be glad to be wrong.

[KrakHed]

I have vouched many times over that that's who the Mag'har are because all they changed after WoD was their name. Even when we meet them their first task for you is to put down this season's ogre slave revolt, described in those terms. I've got zero issues with her or their characterization. There's a surprising amount of nuance in the conflict between them and the Lightbound that's entirely absent from the rest of the narrative.

I just don't think that's what Blizzard intend, which is why I'm betting the line will be changed. I'd be glad to be wrong.

There's nuance between them and the Lightbound, but there's a repeated pattern I've noticed since Garrosh. I made a prediction that entire decade ago. See, I noticed that all the Mag'har that Garrosh brought with him were morally bankrupt. General Grebo was the one responsible for all the BS in Stonetalon. Cromush is basically honorary Forsaken, with a clear divide between him and the Frostwolves who told him to fuck off.

This was something I think even came up in War Crimes. Garrosh thinks he's morally superior because he's "pure". The thing is, the Mag'har never learned jack shit that the rest of the Horde had. The Green Orcs weren't redeemed to their former high morals. They developed morals that the Mag'har never had in the first place. Opposition to child murder, splitting notions of loyalty from honor, is new for Orcs for the large part.

Mag'har are terrible people. Every appearance has only confirmed that. Just look at Aggra and what she did to Thrall's balls. Just fucking awful.

I bet if you recruited some Fel Orcs, they'd make for better people.

[Dagoth Ur]

Nah. Only thing that's holding me back a bit is the fact that he's Cairne son. Barring that, as long as he shows more concern for the Alliance than his own people, continues to mutilate himself for our treasure and pursue what he believes in at the expense of other Horde soldiers, he's unsalvagable.

[matrix123mko]

He was a bit good in War Crimes. In game he is as bad as Saurfang.

[ophion1990]

I was genuinely stunned to find that Blizzard remembered that the Mag'har are basically the Iron Horde and wouldn't give one fuck about this, cheers on them for that, though I'm 90% sure the line will be changed to some milquetoast whining like all the rest before release.

At least they saved Bob by having him point out the logistical issues and the trouble Baine causes for the tauren which he won't allow to happen for the blood elves. After his whining about ruinous paths I was absolutely sure he'd be the next to take a hollow moral stand for Our Treasure.

Does this really prove anything about Geyarah's character? I initially thought it was kind of a bad look that she'd run her mouth about Baine, even though she is largely clueless to what is even going on but on the other hand, she just came to Azeroth from another fucking planet, having lost her warchief and mother (?). No sane person is gonna defy Sylvanas when they're in her spot.

[Combatbutler]

Does this really prove anything about Geyarah's character? I initially thought it was kind of a bad look that she'd run her mouth about Baine, even though she is largely clueless to what is even going on but on the other hand, she just came to Azeroth from another fucking planet, having lost her warchief and mother (?). No sane person is gonna defy Sylvanas when they're in her spot.

Sylvanas operates very similar to her people, so I really doubt Geyarah would have a problem with her style of leadership.

[Super Dickmann]

Mag'har are terrible people. Every appearance has only confirmed that. Just look at Aggra and what she did to Thrall's balls. Just fucking awful.

Instead of being everywhere, they're in a vice. It's a tragedy.

There's nuance between them and the Lightbound, but there's a repeated pattern I've noticed since Garrosh. I made a prediction that entire decade ago. See, I noticed that all the Mag'har that Garrosh brought with him were morally bankrupt. General Grebo was the one responsible for all the BS in Stonetalon. Cromush is basically honorary Forsaken, with a clear divide between him and the Frostwolves who told him to fuck off.

This was something I think even came up in War Crimes. Garrosh thinks he's morally superior because he's "pure". The thing is, the Mag'har never learned jack shit that the rest of the Horde had. The Green Orcs weren't redeemed to their former high morals. They developed morals that the Mag'har never had in the first place. Opposition to child murder, splitting notions of loyalty from honor, is new for Orcs for the large part.

This is all true, and it ties into things like Nazgrel bringing up that it might be better to keep orcish history buried if Thrall wants to maintain his version of the Horde and the Mag'har being part of Garrosh's inner sanctum in SoO, the ones who actually managed to use the Heart. I.e, while what Thrall and what he tried to do was to make the acts that the Old Horde did bad, the lesson the Mag'har learned, at least in the MU, is that they were tricked into doing these things and it was their loss of autonomy that was the injustice, not what they were doing in the first place. They appreciate sovereignty, but only their own, which is why they have no issue subjugating others but consider being bound by a cosmic power, regardless of whether it's good or not, to be a grievous affront.

Hence why Cromush finds it so easy to pal along with the Forsaken, that attitude and the attitude the Forsaken have towards free will, i.e rights for me but not for thee, are very compatible. It's part of who the orcs are and it's the mindset Garrosh took with him and molded the Iron Horde and later the Mag'har into. Purity is a part of it sure, but the purity is backed up by what they actually prize so much, namely their autonomy as a collective entity, that they are the masters of their own destiny.

Tl;dr They better keep that line and have the Mag'har turn on Sylvanas over her showing weakness through treachery or something.

@ophion1990

If it stays, it's deliberate and respectful of canon. The Mag'har have done everything Sylvanas has done, some of it on a larger scale and before she did. No 'raise one dude and prod him until he wants to stab his family' here, just full on mass raising skellies through the Void and sacrificing draenei to get it done.

[Jester Joe]

How was action needed immediately? Sylvanas had done so much worse before Derek Proudmoore and he had to act now? Don't be ridiculous, Baine has done what he always did best screwing himself and his people over, he doesn't think things through and acts like the naive little Idiot he is.



This here is bullshit just as Baines entire outrage during that spat, leaving Saurfang to die was absolutely nothing compared to what had happened in that battle, Sylvanas Gassed her own troops and raised them as shock troopers, where was the outrage about that? No instead itz has to be about the old depressed idiot, not his actual soldiers and people, no the lone suicidal Orc has to be what he is enraged about, whatever sympathy one might have had for Baine should have evaporated at that moment.

1) had to be done before Sylvanas put her plan into effect. Before the brainwashing began. Otherwise it would have been too late.

2) did you forget Baine was intentionally not on the front line? He was set to help evacuate and protect those doing so last I checked. He didn't see the gas happen at that time, why would he raise a complaint about something only Saurfang saw?


Side note, on my phone so that's why I didn't respond to any other post because it's too bothersome to and this was the quickest one

[Sangris]

Never in my life would I have imagined that of all the Horde leaders, Gallywix is the most likable right now. That's how far this addon's story went down the shitter.

[ophion1990]

Sylvanas operates very similar to her people, so I really doubt Geyarah would have a problem with her style of leadership.

How do you know that, just based off the single horrible Mag'har recruitment scenario? Keep in mind that Durotan was part of the new Mag'har orcs' Horde, while he opposed the Iron Horde, just like they were allied with Yrel, atleast for a while. I think assuming that Mag'har=Iron Horde is cutting some corners. Not to mention that Geyarah's own parents rebeled against Grom's tyranny of the Iron Horde. There's the case with the Ogres, I suppose, all Grom says is that the Ogres have been subdued, though. Which might just be refering to the days when Orcs were the Ogres' slaves. When you see the way Geyarah acts, it's pretty clear that the Mag'har treat the Ogres a lot more fairly than the Ogres did them. Even highlighting the need for them to stand together, with the threat of the lightbound. So while they are trying to keep the Ogres down, it seems to be pretty mandatory. It doesn't make them come across as tyrants or w/e, IMO.

@Super Dickmann Basicly the above. I admit that my view on this falls apart to some extent because Grom was somehow still allowed to remain warchief. I still feel like it's a bit much to assume that the Iron Horde of WoD and the ... Mag'har Horde (?) of BfA are one and the same.

[Combatbutler]

1) had to be done before Sylvanas put her plan into effect. Before the brainwashing began. Otherwise it would have been too late.

Again why his risk things for a proudmoore to begin with there are far more legitimate reasons to try to get rid of her, using Derek to kill his family is not high on that list. He has a responsibility to his people first and formost, Derek would have been another sacrifice to keep his head down low for now and actually gathering allies to confront Sylvanas, people in Leadership positions unable to swallow their emotions from time to time are unfit to rule.

2) did you forget Baine was intentionally not on the front line? He was set to help evacuate and protect those doing so last I checked. He didn't see the gas happen at that time, why would he raise a complaint about something only Saurfang saw?

It wasn't just saurfang that saw, heck most horde troops were in the thick of it and Baine reunited with Army before the whole throne room debacle there is no reason for him not to have learned about this, not to mention Saurfang goes on about it, before Sylvanas leaves him there.

[Super Dickmann]

How do you know that, just based off the single horrible Mag'har recruitment scenario? Keep in mind that Durotan was part of the new Mag'har orcs' Horde, while he opposed the Iron Horde, just like they were allied with Yrel, atleast for a while. I think assuming that Mag'har=Iron Horde is cutting some corners. Not to mention that Geyarah's own parents rebeled against Grom's tyranny of the Iron Horde. There's the case with the Ogres, I suppose, all Grom says is that the Ogres have been subdued, though. Which might just be refering to the days when Orcs were the Ogres' slaves. When you see the way Geyarah acts, it's pretty clear that the Mag'har treat the Ogres a lot more fairly than the Ogres did them. Even highlighting the need for them to stand together, with the threat of the lightbound. So while they are trying to keep the Ogres down, it seems to be pretty mandatory. It doesn't make them come across as tyrants or w/e, IMO.

@Super Dickmann Basicly the above. I admit that my view on this falls apart to some extent because Grom was somehow still allowed to remain warchief. I still feel like it's a bit much to assume that the Iron Horde of WoD and the ... Mag'har Horde (?) of BfA are one and the same.

The Mag'har recruitment scenario is where we get the info on their current state from. Note that we have no idea when Durotan got killed and at what point the Frostwolves joined the Mag'har. What we do see is that in architecture, appearance, leadership and things used - such as the Shadowmoon practicing void, nothing has changed from the Iron Horde. Grom never changed at the end of WoD, he just stucks to his guns and told the Legion to fuck off while those who believed in the Iron Horde's ideals less than him turned Fel. Those left and reformed, i.e the Mag'har, do subscribe to these ideals about purity, but are also aggressive and have zero trouble using anything in their arsenal. They wiped out the Primals after all, as we know from their gossip text, which might tie in with their world becoming so barren.

As for the ogres, the reasoning for why they are slaves might vary, but they're still slaves and Geya'rah still mentions having to put down revolts. Whether you view that as justified is up in the air, but they still practice it, much like they practice necromancy and much like they do everything the Iron Horde used to. It'd make sense they'd be both more militant and have no issue with behaviour that they either practice or are apathetic about. Their honor would not be the honor of an orc that aligns with Thrall.

Again, this is contingent on the line staying unchanged which I really doubt. So far however, it all ties together.

[Combatbutler]

How do you know that, just based off the single horrible Mag'har recruitment scenario? Keep in mind that Durotan was part of the new Mag'har orcs' Horde, while he opposed the Iron Horde, just like they were allied with Yrel, atleast for a while. I think assuming that Mag'har=Iron Horde is cutting some corners. Not to mention that Geyarah's own parents rebeled against Grom's tyranny of the Iron Horde. There's the case with the Ogres, I suppose, all Grom says is that the Ogres have been subdued, though. Which might just be refering to the days when Orcs were the Ogres' slaves. When you see the way Geyarah acts, it's pretty clear that the Mag'har treat the Ogres a lot more fairly than the Ogres did them. Even highlighting the need for them to stand together, with the threat of the lightbound. So while they are trying to keep the Ogres down, it seems to be pretty mandatory. It doesn't make them come across as tyrants or w/e, IMO.

@Super Dickmann Basicly the above. I admit that my view on this falls apart to some extent because Grom was somehow still allowed to remain warchief. I still feel like it's a bit much to assume that the Iron Horde of WoD and the ... Mag'har Horde (?) of BfA are one and the same.

Grom was the overall leader of all the orcs and even the Durotan orcs had no problems to wipe out entire orcs clans or the ogres, they still operated on might makes right at the end of day, you either stand with them or you stand against them, which is the core principle of the Ma'ghar. Not to mention Geyarah own goal is genocide from the get go she reaches Azeroth, wanting to lay waste to the Alliance cities, because they are allied with the Draenei.

[Beerbill Society]

I actually like Baine, not that betrayal or that spineless shit they are doing with him in BFA.

He has a backstory in Warcraft 3 where Rexxar and Rokhan saves him, and I think they should have explored that more.

I kinda liked doing Highmountain quests with him, he looked sick with that outfit and is kinda nice see his growth.

Problem is, Blizzard have some kind of deficiency telling story of young leaders like him or Anduin, since both follow the same boring stereotype.

Baine should be a brave young warrior, but he was kinda like Anduin in that way because his father was a great warrior and he had no proficiency as such, but they managed to save Anduin with that priest/paladin thing (even if you consider that he was the weakest priest of the Alliance Leadership cough cough Velen cough Tyrande).

For Baine is kinda hard to make him a shaman sage or something like that because we have Hamuul Runetotem and that Sunwalker dude as the holy warrior, also his father was probably the greatest Warrior ever and the Horde leadership is filled with shamans and hunters, basically there as too many good people in those roles and stereotypes that is hard for him to fit in. So he just play the dumb role, its kinda nice in cinematics like he having fun and breaking the ice but in times of war, it's just meh.

[Zandalariprelate]

He is the worst clone of Jaina I had ever seen

[Powerogue]

One could say he's been pretty spineless up until now but I have on good information that's about to change. One things for sure: The steaks have never been higher.