So apparently sub is dead?

[Shaetha]

Weren't they very strong in Emerald Nightmare when they had that Surrender to Madness talent which made them do insane damage for a period of time before they self-destructed?

they had to pay back their complete requirement they had for the entirety of Burning Crusade. It took 10 years they were so OP.

[shoegazing]

Shoegazing made a good post?

?????

Huh?

I've been very consistent about this issue, so your shock is surprising to me.

Bye the way, out of the 122 Rogues currently rated 2200+ in 3s according to arenamate... only 7 of them are playing Subtlety.

It is truly heartbreaking how far this once legendary spec has fallen.

[snookiee]

Been loving outlaw as I've grinded up past 2k this season, and of course am dreading the (i'll admit, needed) nerfs. I've decided I could cope if blizzard could buff sub in the same patch as outlaw nerfs, I played sub all of legion and miss it dearly. Probably not likely though.

[shoegazing]

Been loving outlaw as I've grinded up past 2k this season, and of course am dreading the (i'll admit, needed) nerfs. I've decided I could cope if blizzard could buff sub in the same patch as outlaw nerfs, I played sub all of legion and miss it dearly. Probably not likely though.

Legion Subtlety was pruned trash, the worse iteration of the spec that has ever been created.

[Xerroth]

Legion Subtlety was pruned trash, the worse iteration of the spec that has ever been created.

BFA Sub is far worse than Legion Sub. At least Legion Sub had an identity, niche, and was actually playable.

[shoegazing]

At least Legion Sub had an identity

Spamming Cheap Shot and Shadowstrike (HURR DURR CLASS FANTASY LOL) because the classic Rogue toolkit that existed since 2004 got pruned is not an identity.

[Crookids]

After the Storm nerf, we knew it would be downhill. Everybody making their silly comments around that time is infuriating as well. Stop lowering your standards. The fact that they destroyed a spec because of one encounter is another in a long list of egregious and baffling changes.

Legion Sub was extremely fun. The most fun I’ve had as a Rogue during my decade long tenure as one. They removed DFA and made it PVP only instead of fixing how it was broke on very few encounters and then killed SS because of how it was broke on a few encounters.

Can we stop ruining the fun or immersion of a spec instead of fixing the underlying gameplay issue? That’s called a bandaid fix and does nothing to progress the game or the class. DFA also brought an acrobatic element to the class which fits well with Rogues but every time the class takes a step forward in terms of excitement it takes two steps back. Yeah, numbers are great along with utility and I will always main a Rogue but with the way Sub was and during Legion — the gameplay variety of the spec and added immersion made it far more fun.

[shoegazing]

After the Storm nerf, we knew it would be downhill. Everybody making their silly comments around that time is infuriating as well. Stop lowering your standards. The fact that they destroyed a spec because of one encounter is another in a long list of egregious and baffling changes.

Legion Sub was extremely fun. The most fun I’ve had as a Rogue during my decade long tenure as one. They removed DFA and made it PVP only instead of fixing how it was broke on very few encounters and then killed SS because of how it was broke on a few encounters.

Can we stop ruining the fun or immersion of a spec instead of fixing the underlying gameplay issue? That’s called a bandaid fix and does nothing to progress the game or the class. DFA also brought an acrobatic element to the class which fits well with Rogues but every time the class takes a step forward in terms of excitement it takes two steps back. Yeah, numbers are great along with utility and I will always main a Rogue but with the way Sub was and during Legion — the gameplay variety of the spec and added immersion made it far more fun.

Legion Sub was NOT fun in PvP, it was a sad joke stunbot that doesn't even play like a Rogue.

And we don't want DFA. Y'all can have it.

PvE and PvP are like completely different games. PvPers want our old toolkit back and we want a traditional Subtlety Rotation that has a passive phase that sets up Rupture and Slice and Dice, pools energy and combo points, and moves into the active phase when Find Weakness gets applied. Then we take our CC tookit and we time and weave that as well around the same phases, which is very engaging.

The game clearly doesn't have enough separation of PvP and PvE, because the PvE driven changes that brought you Legion Subtlety ruined the spec for Subtlety PvPers like me who've played it since Vanilla.

We don't want nu-Rogue trash buttons like DFA and Symbols of Death. This trash shouldn't be forced on all Rogues. We need more choice, because for many Subtlety Rogues, Subtlety died on the date that Legion was announced.

[Crookids]

Legion Sub was NOT fun in PvP, it was a sad joke stunbot that doesn't even play like a Rogue.

And we don't want DFA. Y'all can have it.

PvE and PvP are like completely different games. PvPers want our old toolkit back and we want a traditional Subtlety Rotation that has a passive phase that sets up Rupture and Slice and Dice, pools energy and combo points, and moves into the active phase when Find Weakness gets applied. Then we take our CC tookit and we time and weave that as well around the same phases, which is very engaging.

The game clearly doesn't have enough separation of PvP and PvE, because the PvE driven changes that brought you Legion Subtlety ruined the spec for Subtlety PvPers like me who've played it since Vanilla.

We don't want nu-Rogue trash buttons like DFA and Symbols of Death. This trash shouldn't be forced on all Rogues. We need more choice, because for many Subtlety Rogues, Subtlety died on the date that Legion was announced.

I'm talking strictly PVE here. Sorry, I should have clarified.

[shoegazing]

I'm talking strictly PVE here. Sorry, I should have clarified.

I understand, I'm saying that we need more separation. It's the only way both groups are going to be remotely happy.

[Lodravel]

Legion Sub was NOT fun in PvP, it was a sad joke stunbot that doesn't even play like a Rogue.

And we don't want DFA. Y'all can have it.

PvE and PvP are like completely different games. PvPers want our old toolkit back and we want a traditional Subtlety Rotation that has a passive phase that sets up Rupture and Slice and Dice, pools energy and combo points, and moves into the active phase when Find Weakness gets applied. Then we take our CC tookit and we time and weave that as well around the same phases, which is very engaging.

The game clearly doesn't have enough separation of PvP and PvE, because the PvE driven changes that brought you Legion Subtlety ruined the spec for Subtlety PvPers like me who've played it since Vanilla.

We don't want nu-Rogue trash buttons like DFA and Symbols of Death. This trash shouldn't be forced on all Rogues. We need more choice, because for many Subtlety Rogues, Subtlety died on the date that Legion was announced.

Yeah, the old toolkit was great fun but it has no place in the current game, where everybody's a shoddy remake of themselves.
And though I enjoyed the more methodical approach pre-legion, I do not share your disdain for the current iteration. It's still enjoyable to me. What ultimately brings it down is the lack of meaningful gameplay options. Other than that, the expanded Shadow Dance mechanic, the incredible mobility your Shadow Step charges and Shadow Strike afford you and the emphasis on shadow magic are all aspects of the new subtlety I really like. The direction isn't all bad. (Unlike the damage...)
Still, overall, it is just too straight-forward, like any other spec these days.

[shoegazing]

Yeah, the old toolkit was great fun but it has no place in the current game, where everybody's a shoddy remake of themselves.
And though I enjoyed the more methodical approach pre-legion, I do not share your disdain for the current iteration. It's still enjoyable to me. What ultimately brings it down is the lack of meaningful gameplay options. Other than that, the expanded Shadow Dance mechanic, the incredible mobility your Shadow Step charges and Shadow Strike afford you and the emphasis on shadow magic are all aspects of the new subtlety I really like. The direction isn't all bad. (Unlike the damage...)
Still, overall, it is just too straight-forward, like any other spec these days.

Nobody is asking for changes in isolation. The game across the board needs unpruning. That's a universally popular opinion among experienced PvP players.

As for Shadow Magic, for me it ruins the spec entirely. I've mained a Subtlety Rogue since 2005 and now my character looks and feels completely different? It's not acceptable.

[Lodravel]

Nobody is asking for changes in isolation. The game across the board needs unpruning. That's a universally popular opinion among experienced PvP players.

As for Shadow Magic, for me it ruins the spec entirely. I've mained a Subtlety Rogue since 2005 and now my character looks and feels completely different? It's not acceptable.

Right. I think little something something to freshen up the rotation, and, as mentioned in the other thread, an ability as iconic as gouge, would go a long way of making gameplay feel better.

That's understandable. It also makes sense from Blizz' viewpoint, as before Legion, rogues barely differed in their outward flavour. Being not as flashy as, say, mages, rogues specs mostly set themselves apart by gameplay. Whether you agree with the shadowy direction or not, I reckon the biggest mistake here was splitting the baseline instead of expanding it in different directions. Making gouge outlaw only and poisons the exclusive domain of sin, stuff like that.

[Defias-Pillager]

Legion Sub was NOT fun in PvP, it was a sad joke stunbot that doesn't even play like a Rogue.

And we don't want DFA. Y'all can have it.

PvE and PvP are like completely different games. PvPers want our old toolkit back and we want a traditional Subtlety Rotation that has a passive phase that sets up Rupture and Slice and Dice, pools energy and combo points, and moves into the active phase when Find Weakness gets applied. Then we take our CC tookit and we time and weave that as well around the same phases, which is very engaging.

The game clearly doesn't have enough separation of PvP and PvE, because the PvE driven changes that brought you Legion Subtlety ruined the spec for Subtlety PvPers like me who've played it since Vanilla.

We don't want nu-Rogue trash buttons like DFA and Symbols of Death. This trash shouldn't be forced on all Rogues. We need more choice, because for many Subtlety Rogues, Subtlety died on the date that Legion was announced.

I swear to God, you are actually a retard.

I have seen you on just about every single Rogue forum, from official to unofficial, from Blizzard approved to obscure ezboards, without fail, without missing a single beat always, always come to any Subtlety topic and go off on this exact same rant. I'm not sure if you have the most finely tuned bout of autism that some higher power chose to beta test with you as the prototype or if you perhaps inherited the most useless superpower known to mankind but whenever anyone, anywhere, at any time discusses Subtlety you will have some sort of notification go off in your head that will see you rush towards and proceed to hatefuck that topic with the same rants and tirades you've been doing since 2015.

Shoegazer, I honestly think you need to invest in coaching a little league baseball team or work in an animal shelter or something that makes you less obsessed and ready to shout like a doomsayer with a sandwich board located in the bowels of a 1980s New York City subway station. I've seen many odd behaviors over the years but this is one that takes the cake. It almost fascinates me. You're like Rainman but you speak in more complete sentences. An idiot savant who only has mastery of going off about how awesome Subtlety used to be. Only you've been doing it for nearly 5 fucking years now.

What do you actually do for a living? Do you have any aspirations, any goals, any actual dreams of what you'll be doing in ten years? How old even are you? You are the most strange motherfucker I have ever seen on the Internet, it is to the point you actually unsettle me. Someone like you actually exists. You actually see what some silly video game company did to a past-its-prime MMORPG as overwhelming injustice to your very livelihood.

You are like that guy who never got over his first break up and are doomed to spend the rest of his life replaying the moment in his head over and over and over again. Except this is you having some emotional tether to a goofy ass specialization in World of Warcraft.

Spend whatever disability money you get from the government on an escort, dress her up like the Subtlety icon, and fuck the holy shit out of her. Maybe that will relieve you of all these frustrations at long last and you can actually become a normal person again and not a timelocked 2015 ranting dipshit.

Okay. Infracted.

[Jibbler]

woah man take it easy
its just a forum post

[D3athsting]

I wanna know the name of the genius mastermind dev who replaced dfa with that crap called secret technique so i could suggest him another job

[Kaver]

I swear to God, you are actually a retard.

I have seen you on just about every single Rogue forum, from official to unofficial, from Blizzard approved to obscure ezboards, without fail, without missing a single beat always, always come to any Subtlety topic and go off on this exact same rant. I'm not sure if you have the most finely tuned bout of autism that some higher power chose to beta test with you as the prototype or if you perhaps inherited the most useless superpower known to mankind but whenever anyone, anywhere, at any time discusses Subtlety you will have some sort of notification go off in your head that will see you rush towards and proceed to hatefuck that topic with the same rants and tirades you've been doing since 2015.

Shoegazer, I honestly think you need to invest in coaching a little league baseball team or work in an animal shelter or something that makes you less obsessed and ready to shout like a doomsayer with a sandwich board located in the bowels of a 1980s New York City subway station. I've seen many odd behaviors over the years but this is one that takes the cake. It almost fascinates me. You're like Rainman but you speak in more complete sentences. An idiot savant who only has mastery of going off about how awesome Subtlety used to be. Only you've been doing it for nearly 5 fucking years now.

What do you actually do for a living? Do you have any aspirations, any goals, any actual dreams of what you'll be doing in ten years? How old even are you? You are the most strange motherfucker I have ever seen on the Internet, it is to the point you actually unsettle me. Someone like you actually exists. You actually see what some silly video game company did to a past-its-prime MMORPG as overwhelming injustice to your very livelihood.

You are like that guy who never got over his first break up and are doomed to spend the rest of his life replaying the moment in his head over and over and over again. Except this is you having some emotional tether to a goofy ass specialization in World of Warcraft.

Spend whatever disability money you get from the government on an escort, dress her up like the Subtlety icon, and fuck the holy shit out of her. Maybe that will relieve you of all these frustrations at long last and you can actually become a normal person again and not a timelocked 2015 ranting dipshit.

Okay. Infracted.

Why do you care so much about a random dude on the internet? Pick your battles mate. There are bigger problems in the world.

[redf]

I wanna know the name of the genius mastermind dev who replaced dfa with that crap called secret technique so i could suggest him another job

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lKbXmhCPtU

the same who were responsible for this

[legendaryusername]

Sub is dead like the game tehee

[Soisoisoi]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lKbXmhCPtU

the same who were responsible for this

Video just makes it look like it's gone to shit when in reality there's only minor changes to the PvE "rotation", ie SnD being removed, Rupture essentially just had a name change (I'd love it to go back for PvP, because Bleed can't be cloaked/dispelled), and you get a reset with Prep.