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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Battlebeard View Post
    Not only PvP gods play subletly. I strongly believe most people still use button 1-5 more than most other buttons. This I base on watching streamers, guild discussions, discussions I had in raids/bgs, discussions on various discord servers etc.

    While the pvp gods of twitch have many bindings, I often see them have some of the most used abilities on buttons 1-5.

    The beauty of all Blizzard games have been the philosophy of "easy to play, hard to master" and I think all speccs should be easy to pick up but hard to be gods with. The standard buttons in the game for abilities are the regular buttons, it's fair to say ALOT of people are used to these.

    You also obviously use different abilities in shadow dance and in stealth. Correct me if I'm wrong, cause I'm no pvp god, but most players will never be in a situation where they would use Sap in dance, or some dance abilties in stealth. So to jam in 10+ abilities in the number bar, when you prefer 1-5, maybe button 6, is not a good design. You would have to either use buttons 7 to 0, which honestly, my fingers can't reach them without letting go of movement buttons WASD, so that's a mess, or you would have to start stance macros, and that sucks too.

    Regardless, WHY not just keep the bars separate. IF you prefer to have the same abilities you can just bind them the same, so no change for you. But for me, who dies to have two different bars, it would save the specc for me. I see litterally 0 reason to not have them separated, since you CAN just keep them the same if you want. Have them the same by default and let people like me rebind, then you don't even have to bother with that, just give me the possibility!
    There are 36 unique specializations in WoW.

    Arguing in favor of making Subtlety more dumbed down and homogenized for accessibility purposes is utterly stupid, particularly so in the face of the history of that spec. There is no need to have all 36 specs in the game designed for the least common denominator.

    BTW, "Correct me if I'm wrong, cause I'm no pvp god, but most players will never be in a situation where they would use Sap in dance" you are completely, utterly wrong. Please take your ignorance someplace else.
    Subtlety Rogue was an amazing, incredible, unique, and fun spec prior to Legion and BfA

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by shoegazing View Post
    BTW, "Correct me if I'm wrong, cause I'm no pvp god, but most players will never be in a situation where they would use Sap in dance" you are completely, utterly wrong. Please take your ignorance someplace else.
    He's right, though. Most players will never use sap in dance. For that to happen you have to play PvP and use a focus target+focus macros... which I don't think equals a lot of players.

    Which is why it is so vital to the class. Opportunities to distinguish yourself from others is what drives MMOs! Doesn't matter if it's gear or skill, there always has to be a way to raise yourself above the rest, and since WoW is lacking opportunity to do the latter nowadays, any such design feature is highly welcome.

  3. #83
    Herald of the Titans Battlebeard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shoegazing View Post
    There are 36 unique specializations in WoW.

    Arguing in favor of making Subtlety more dumbed down and homogenized for accessibility purposes is utterly stupid, particularly so in the face of the history of that spec. There is no need to have all 36 specs in the game designed for the least common denominator.

    BTW, "Correct me if I'm wrong, cause I'm no pvp god, but most players will never be in a situation where they would use Sap in dance" you are completely, utterly wrong. Please take your ignorance someplace else.
    You avoid the subject. If the bars could be bound separetly, what harm would that do? Right now they are the same, so just bind them the same if you prefer. What possible harm would it do you if I can bind them separate? There is litterally 0 arguement agains me here other than "it has always been this way" and that is no good argument.

    I don't know why I bother talking to hardcore fanboys, but when someone who defend no changes even if the changes are for the better calls ME ignorant, that kinda triggers me.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Battlebeard View Post
    Personally I don't care how good or bad that specc is. Until they have separate stealth bars and shadow dance bars, I will NEVER touch Sub.

    As an example, I want to only use bar 1-5. In stealth I want cheapshot on 3 and sap on 1 (had that since vanilla), but in dance, I want Eviscerate on 3 (cause thats my 3 on my non stealth bar) and Ambush (don't even remember new name for that ability) on 1.

    I don't wanna use button 6-0, and all my Shift-Bindings etc are already occupied. And WHO wants to use Stance macros (if in stealth cast this, if in dance cast this etc).

    Yet, I seem to be like the only one with this problem
    Yeah those macros would take about 2 minutes to make and they'd work flawlessly. If you lack the ability to change bindings, and you can't make macros, is an MMO really for you?

  5. #85
    Herald of the Titans Battlebeard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Segus1992 View Post
    Yeah those macros would take about 2 minutes to make and they'd work flawlessly. If you lack the ability to change bindings, and you can't make macros, is an MMO really for you?
    Got 3 answers for that:

    1. This is working around the problem, not solving it. 0 reason to not allow separate bars
    2. I hate macros and have never really used em or felt the need too. It should not be needed to play and enjoy the game.
    3. How fun is a stance macro in a lore/rp/epicness perspective. I want to Eciscerate my enemy, not stancemacro my enemy. Its fun to cast certain abilities and macros take away alot of the epic feeling so to speak.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by shoegazing View Post
    There are 36 unique specializations in WoW.

    Arguing in favor of making Subtlety more dumbed down and homogenized for accessibility purposes is utterly stupid, particularly so in the face of the history of that spec. There is no need to have all 36 specs in the game designed for the least common denominator.

    BTW, "Correct me if I'm wrong, cause I'm no pvp god, but most players will never be in a situation where they would use Sap in dance" you are completely, utterly wrong. Please take your ignorance someplace else.
    Based on your earlier post about you being a software engineer who watched your students going to NASA etc., I’m surprise how poorly you talk to other people. Please keep a sober tone for further discussion.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Battlebeard View Post
    Got 3 answers for that:

    1. This is working around the problem, not solving it. 0 reason to not allow separate bars
    2. I hate macros and have never really used em or felt the need too. It should not be needed to play and enjoy the game.
    3. How fun is a stance macro in a lore/rp/epicness perspective. I want to Eciscerate my enemy, not stancemacro my enemy. Its fun to cast certain abilities and macros take away alot of the epic feeling so to speak.
    Can you explain what you mean by separate bars? Why would it make a difference if you separate the dance bar from the stealth bar, as you use the same skills in both of them anyway?

    As for the 1 to 5 stuff, my setup goes like this: 1 is Nightblade, 2 for Eviscarate, 3 for Kidneyshot, 4 is Sap, 5 is racial, Q is Backstab/Shadow Strike and E is Shuriken Throw. The rest of the bottom bar is filled with stealth specific skills like Distract, Pickpocket, ... only Cheap Shot is off the bound to Mousewheel Down (+ modifiers for alternate targets).

    Point is, I still use the standart buttons (1-5 etc) for the standart rotation.
    Except for focusmacros/arena 1 2 3 (for which there is no alternative), macros aren't necessary. I do have a mouse with additional buttons, but using all the modifiers (alt, shift, ctrl), these have become superfluous with Legion. You can comfortably fit your entire ability-set onto the standart keyboard.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Based on your earlier post about you being a software engineer who watched your students going to NASA etc., I’m surprise how poorly you talk to other people. Please keep a sober tone for further discussion.
    I guess that would include refraining from the ad hominems. :P

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Battlebeard View Post
    Got 3 answers for that:

    1. This is working around the problem, not solving it. 0 reason to not allow separate bars
    2. I hate macros and have never really used em or felt the need too. It should not be needed to play and enjoy the game.
    3. How fun is a stance macro in a lore/rp/epicness perspective. I want to Eciscerate my enemy, not stancemacro my enemy. Its fun to cast certain abilities and macros take away alot of the epic feeling so to speak.
    1. Right, so you just want to whine.
    2. Maybe it shouldn't but unless you're a very low level player you will want them anyway.
    3. What? Do you even know how macros work? They can literally be indistinguishable from the real ability icons.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Based on your earlier post about you being a software engineer who watched your students going to NASA etc., I’m surprise how poorly you talk to other people. Please keep a sober tone for further discussion.
    Being intelligent or educated does not mean you've got any level of people skills. Most of the time people in STEM fields actually have less social skills than most, speaking from experience as a mechanical engineer.

  9. #89
    Herald of the Titans Battlebeard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lodravel View Post
    Can you explain what you mean by separate bars? Why would it make a difference if you separate the dance bar from the stealth bar, as you use the same skills in both of them anyway?

    As for the 1 to 5 stuff, my setup goes like this: 1 is Nightblade, 2 for Eviscarate, 3 for Kidneyshot, 4 is Sap, 5 is racial, Q is Backstab/Shadow Strike and E is Shuriken Throw. The rest of the bottom bar is filled with stealth specific skills like Distract, Pickpocket, ... only Cheap Shot is off the bound to Mousewheel Down (+ modifiers for alternate targets).

    Point is, I still use the standart buttons (1-5 etc) for the standart rotation.
    Except for focusmacros/arena 1 2 3 (for which there is no alternative), macros aren't necessary. I do have a mouse with additional buttons, but using all the modifiers (alt, shift, ctrl), these have become superfluous with Legion. You can comfortably fit your entire ability-set onto the standart keyboard.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I guess that would include refraining from the ad hominems. :P

    I want to use different abilities in stealth and in shadow dance.
    In Stealth I want 1. Sap, 2. Garrote, 3. Cheap Shot, 4. Pick Pocket, 5. Distract
    In Dance I want 1. Shadow Strike, 2. Garrote (only same), 3. Eviscerate, 4. Nightblade, 5. Kidney Shot

    So I want to use far from the same abilities in both.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Segus1992 View Post
    1. Right, so you just want to whine.
    2. Maybe it shouldn't but unless you're a very low level player you will want them anyway.
    3. What? Do you even know how macros work? They can literally be indistinguishable from the real ability icons.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Being intelligent or educated does not mean you've got any level of people skills. Most of the time people in STEM fields actually have less social skills than most, speaking from experience as a mechanical engineer.

    I don't want to whine, I want it solved. Cause right now, the current situation may cause 0 trouble for you but ALOT of trouble for me. With the change I want (ability to bind them different), it would be 0 trouble for me and STILL 0 trouble for you. How can you even be against it, when it harm you in no possible way?

    Very low level? in 15 years I never used macros, I have many Cutting Edge achivements, been a mythic raider i top 50 guilds from TBC to WOD, and played at 2,2k in both arena and RBG. It's not godlike, but it's better than avarage and ALOT better than new players. I NEVER felt the need for addons. Except here, and that sucks.

    I know how macros work, but it's still not the same. It's simply not the same feeling. It's like eating gluten free bread, it may taste almost the same but it's just not as good.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Battlebeard View Post
    I want to use different abilities in stealth and in shadow dance.
    In Stealth I want 1. Sap, 2. Garrote, 3. Cheap Shot, 4. Pick Pocket, 5. Distract
    In Dance I want 1. Shadow Strike, 2. Garrote (only same), 3. Eviscerate, 4. Nightblade, 5. Kidney Shot

    So I want to use far from the same abilities in both.
    You do know that shadowstrike teleports when used from stealth? What is the ability you open with in pve? If it is not shadowstrike, you play massively wrong.
    Subtlety has no garrote. Why have garrote there? Do you do any worldquests? You never want to cheapshot mobs while dancing? You always open with cheapshot? Because you miss out a 25% buffed shadowstrike and with the right talent cheap shot is free in dance.

    It's nothing personal, but you are either a really bad rogue or have 3 fingers per hand.
    Last edited by Luhmina; 2019-05-16 at 09:12 PM.
    Dying could endanger your health!

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Battlebeard View Post
    I want to use different abilities in stealth and in shadow dance.
    In Stealth I want 1. Sap, 2. Garrote, 3. Cheap Shot, 4. Pick Pocket, 5. Distract
    In Dance I want 1. Shadow Strike, 2. Garrote (only same), 3. Eviscerate, 4. Nightblade, 5. Kidney Shot

    So I want to use far from the same abilities in both.

    - - - Updated - - -




    I don't want to whine, I want it solved. Cause right now, the current situation may cause 0 trouble for you but ALOT of trouble for me. With the change I want (ability to bind them different), it would be 0 trouble for me and STILL 0 trouble for you. How can you even be against it, when it harm you in no possible way?

    Very low level? in 15 years I never used macros, I have many Cutting Edge achivements, been a mythic raider i top 50 guilds from TBC to WOD, and played at 2,2k in both arena and RBG. It's not godlike, but it's better than avarage and ALOT better than new players. I NEVER felt the need for addons. Except here, and that sucks.

    I know how macros work, but it's still not the same. It's simply not the same feeling. It's like eating gluten free bread, it may taste almost the same but it's just not as good.
    Just a practical question :

    To arrange spells on your stealth bar, you go into stealth. How would you arrange spells on your Shadow Dance bar? Would you go into Shadow Dance multiple times until you get it right? :P

  12. #92
    Herald of the Titans Battlebeard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luhmina View Post
    You do know that shadowstrike teleports when used from stealth? What is the ability you open with in pve? If it is not shadowstrike, you play massively wrong.
    Subtlety has no garrote. Why have garrote there? Do you do any worldquests? You never want to cheapshot mobs while dancing? You always open with cheapshot? Because you miss out a 25% buffed shadowstrike and with the right talent cheap shot is free in dance.

    It's nothing personal, but you are either a really bad rogue or have 3 fingers per hand.
    Oh, that's right, there is no garrote anymore, I simply forgot that, haven't played Sub in so long, so used to Assa hehe.

    Anyway, I don't want Cheap shot in dance at all. In dance, I just wanna spam shadowstrike and eviscerate when i get CP capped. And possibly Nightblade sometimes. And what do you mean by fingers, you can't utilize all 5 on the 1-5 action bars? Thumb is on space by default, smallest finger is on shift (got alot of bindings with shift) and then I move with one finger while using abilities on the other 2. To stretch for button 6-0 etc is way to far for my hands, and my hands are regular sized.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Just a practical question :

    To arrange spells on your stealth bar, you go into stealth. How would you arrange spells on your Shadow Dance bar? Would you go into Shadow Dance multiple times until you get it right? :P
    I'm sure they could add a smooth way to add abilities to their dance bar. And they could also make the Dance bar be the same as stealth bar by default, but ALLOW me to change the dance bar, even if I have to wait for it to be ready over and over to arrange it. That way, only people like me have to actively change.

  13. #93
    1-5 are standard hotkeys. That is the bare minimum. Add in shift, alt, ctrl and you got more. With 2 mods you have enough to double bind everything.
    Add in q e r c v b, i mean give your thumb activities instead of spamming jump like hunters do.
    With simple macros you can achieve everything you want. stance:1 is stealth, stance:2 is dance,vanish,subterfuge.

    Also i can't believe that you never want to cheap shot in dance. Like i said, you facetank everything or only use kidney?
    I have to admit i mostly use cheap shot in wpvp because mobs die after 2 shadow strikes + 2 finisher(mfd), but on occasion i use it because it stuns, is free(talent) and gives 2 cp.

    I still can't believe you don't use cheapshot in dance ever.
    Dying could endanger your health!

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Battlebeard View Post
    I don't know why I bother talking to hardcore fanboys, but when someone who defend no changes even if the changes are for the better calls ME ignorant, that kinda triggers me.
    My position is not "no changes ever." In its current state the spec requires quite a lot of change. My position is no changes intended to dumb Subtlety down for the least common denominator when Assassination already fills that niche. Historically we have Subtlety designed for me, Assassination designed for you. You are asking for both to be designed for you leaving nothing for me. That is not a reasonable thing for you to ask for. Go pound rocks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Based on your earlier post about you being a software engineer who watched your students going to NASA etc., I’m surprise how poorly you talk to other people. Please keep a sober tone for further discussion.
    I am always respectful and helpful to people who ask for help. But people who admit their own ignorance but still for some reason want to argue with those who know better do not deserve infinite patience. They have been offered many helpful suggestions such as taking 30 seconds to write a stance macro but they clearly aren't interested in listening. "Subtlety should be played with only 1-5 binds" is not a reasonable position that deserves unending patience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Luhmina View Post
    Also i can't believe that you never want to cheap shot in dance.
    Based on everything else, I have no trouble believing it. For example, the fact that they are arguing about how Subtlety should be designed, yet they aren't even aware that we don't have Garrote.
    Last edited by shoegazing; 2019-05-17 at 12:15 PM.
    Subtlety Rogue was an amazing, incredible, unique, and fun spec prior to Legion and BfA

  15. #95
    Herald of the Titans Battlebeard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shoegazing View Post
    My position is not "no changes ever." In its current state the spec requires quite a lot of change. My position is no changes intended to dumb Subtlety down for the least common denominator when Assassination already fills that niche. Historically we have Subtlety designed for me, Assassination designed for you. You are asking for both to be designed for you leaving nothing for me. That is not a reasonable thing for you to ask for. Go pound rocks.



    I am always respectful and helpful to people who ask for help. But people who admit their own ignorance but still for some reason want to argue with those who know better do not deserve infinite patience. They have been offered many helpful suggestions such as taking 30 seconds to write a stance macro but they clearly aren't interested in listening. "Subtlety should be played with only 1-5 binds" is not a reasonable position that deserves unending patience.



    Based on everything else, I have no trouble believing it. For example, the fact that they are arguing about how Subtlety should be designed, yet they aren't even aware that we don't have Garrote.

    Please, I really want you to give this answer. WHAT change would it be you if the bars could be bound separately? There is LITTERALLY NO CHANGE for you because you CAN bind them the same if you want to. So it affects you ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. So HOW can you be against something that affects you nothing? It affect me, but has no consequence for you. It's a win-win, how do you not see it. Hopeless fanboy.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Battlebeard View Post
    Please, I really want you to give this answer. WHAT change would it be you if the bars could be bound separately? There is LITTERALLY NO CHANGE for you because you CAN bind them the same if you want to. So it affects you ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. So HOW can you be against something that affects you nothing? It affect me, but has no consequence for you. It's a win-win, how do you not see it. Hopeless fanboy.
    I don't give a damn about bar swapping -- As stated, I already disable bar swapping entirely because the bar lag is absolutely intolerable. I have abilities like Sap and Cheap Shot available on the same binds at all times because I use macros like

    #showtooltip
    /cast [mod:shift] Shadow Dance
    /cast [mod:ctrl] Shadow Step
    /cast Sap

    So even when I'm not in Stealth or Dancing already, I can instantly Dance Step Sap by holding shift and control and pressing my bind for Sap. (I can also Step Sap by using just control, Dance Sap using just shift, or only Sap by using no modifiers are all). And I have a separate bind entirely for @Focus Sap which also includes similar Dance and @Focus Step modifier options.

    The thing that you said that is absolutely unacceptable to me is this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Battlebeard View Post
    I strongly believe most players want to use button 1-5
    Subtlety isn't for players who want a 5 button spec. There are many good options available for players who want that. Subtlety should never be one of them. Go pound rocks.
    Last edited by shoegazing; 2019-05-18 at 03:17 AM.
    Subtlety Rogue was an amazing, incredible, unique, and fun spec prior to Legion and BfA

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Battlebeard View Post
    As an example, I want to only use bar 1-5.
    Wrong game buddy.

    I strongly believe most players want to use button 1-5,
    Bull crap, if that were true, BFA sub numbers would be MUCH higher.

    Sometimes I believe activisonblizz is catering to casuals or people that prefer simple and mindnumbing boring rotations, including you. Honest to god, it makes me sick.

  18. #98
    Herald of the Titans Battlebeard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shoegazing View Post
    I don't give a damn about bar swapping -- As stated, I already disable bar swapping entirely because the bar lag is absolutely intolerable. I have abilities like Sap and Cheap Shot available on the same binds at all times because I use macros like

    #showtooltip
    /cast [mod:shift] Shadow Dance
    /cast [mod:ctrl] Shadow Step
    /cast Sap

    So even when I'm not in Stealth or Dancing already, I can instantly Dance Step Sap by holding shift and control and pressing my bind for Sap. (I can also Step Sap by using just control, Dance Sap using just shift, or only Sap by using no modifiers are all). And I have a separate bind entirely for @Focus Sap which also includes similar Dance and @Focus Step modifier options.

    The thing that you said that is absolutely unacceptable to me is this:



    Subtlety isn't for players who want a 5 button spec. There are many good options available for players who want that. Subtlety should never be one of them. Go pound rocks.
    I didn't say sub was a 5 button specc, just that the MOST USED abilities are on 1-5 for most players. This I base on discussions ingame, on discord and simply by watching streamers.

    I have every ability the sub-rogue has avaliable bound. To 1-5 (6 as well), Shift 1-6, and various others like E,F,H,G,T,R etc and shift-e,f,h etc etc. I use every ability, I just want the ones you use the most, the ones I listed before, liek shadowstrike, nightblade etc on buttons 1-5. And the most used stealth abilities, sap, cheapshot, distract, pick pocket etc ALSO on 1-5. Is this really crazy? It's not dumbing down the specc, it's just making it convinient.

    That's the beaty with all blizzard games, they are easy to play but hard to master. So should sub be. The skillfloor should always be low and the skillceiling should always be high. Sub has a high skillceiling, one of the highest in the game, but also the skillfloor is also high, which is completly uncessary. Make sub easier to play at a baselevel, it will still remain hard to master. So you, mr.pro won't be affected at all. Why not let more people enjoy the specc? The only thing worse than fanboys are elitists.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Beefkow View Post
    Wrong game buddy.



    Bull crap, if that were true, BFA sub numbers would be MUCH higher.

    Sometimes I believe activisonblizz is catering to casuals or people that prefer simple and mindnumbing boring rotations, including you. Honest to god, it makes me sick.
    I mean I want to use 1-5 for the most common abilities. I don't want less spells for Sub and I use ALL abilities on other bindings. But I don't wanna press Shift-3 to eviscerate, I want that to be simply on 3, cause it's one of the most used spells. But I don't want it in stealth on button 3, there I want cheap shot etc.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Battlebeard View Post
    I didn't say sub was a 5 button specc, just that the MOST USED abilities are on 1-5 for most players. This I base on discussions ingame, on discord and simply by watching streamers.

    I have every ability the sub-rogue has avaliable bound. To 1-5 (6 as well), Shift 1-6, and various others like E,F,H,G,T,R etc and shift-e,f,h etc etc. I use every ability, I just want the ones you use the most, the ones I listed before, liek shadowstrike, nightblade etc on buttons 1-5. And the most used stealth abilities, sap, cheapshot, distract, pick pocket etc ALSO on 1-5. Is this really crazy? It's not dumbing down the specc, it's just making it convinient.

    That's the beaty with all blizzard games, they are easy to play but hard to master. So should sub be. The skillfloor should always be low and the skillceiling should always be high. Sub has a high skillceiling, one of the highest in the game, but also the skillfloor is also high, which is completly uncessary. Make sub easier to play at a baselevel, it will still remain hard to master. So you, mr.pro won't be affected at all. Why not let more people enjoy the specc? The only thing worse than fanboys are elitists.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I mean I want to use 1-5 for the most common abilities. I don't want less spells for Sub and I use ALL abilities on other bindings. But I don't wanna press Shift-3 to eviscerate, I want that to be simply on 3, cause it's one of the most used spells. But I don't want it in stealth on button 3, there I want cheap shot etc.
    I see now. The skills you'll want to use in Stealth and in SD largely overlap, and if it's bothering you that you can't put that one ability on that one button, that is on your lack of flexibility - I don't think many people have this problem. To all others it is negligible, and it might be easier to readjust your attitude about this issue than wait for a fix that will likely never come.

  20. #100
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    i don't play the rogue for control factor its just pointless to hold when you could be stabbing. when giving a choice always ambush and eviscerate.

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