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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Trumpcat View Post
    Having the thread in mind so far and how we all agree that infighting and faction conflict is boring due to nothing ever changing, would be interesting if Blizzard pulls a surprise and actually change things.

    But things did change in Cata and that was not well received. I personally think the redone world and quests were better, but it introduced a permanent change and story advancement. You can't go back to Vanilla the way you can go back to Wrath.

    So I wonder, we ask for meaningful changes, but having shown that we hardly tolerate change, could we handle it without warring over the Internet and rage unsubbing? What if Tauren joined the Alliance for example?

    Probably safe to assume any signifficant changes will affect the main characters, who are not us. Like Varian dying or Illidan becoming a martyr. While gameplay wise nothing will change.
    Cataclysm was too ambitious. It was the peak for the Horde as a nuanced force and for the faction conflict as actually good, but revamping all the content made it dated. Warfronts themselves blow, but using old world zone updates the way they do to advance stories is a solid approach and it also stops the landmass clutter we're doing.
    This kind of periodic thing and regional struggles would be how I'd advance faction stories in non-faction war expansion. Or the Cataclysm thing, but applied to fewer zones and made max level.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  2. #42
    I'm tired of the faction war, let alone horde-leadership musical chairs... Let's rehash this concept in a minutely different way every 3 expansions! No, let's not. We've proven that the Horde and the Alliance are perfectly capable of moving past grudges and even coexisting in guided peace. A faction war, let alone a civil war, are just forced at this point because of their bad writing in Mists of Pandaria. (Great expansion to play, horrible story.)

  3. #43
    I was bored with the Horde civil war plot in BfA the moment it started. Its a rehash. I'm expecting them it to be like 99% similar to the Garrosh story & then they do Shyamalan swerve at the end & then we'll see a bunch of comments & videos from people telling me "see its not 100% the same!" when that wasn't the complaint -- its TOO similar to the Garrosh plot.
    Last edited by Kokolums; 2019-02-02 at 02:21 PM.

  4. #44
    The Lightbringer steelballfc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Cataclysm was too ambitious. It was the peak for the Horde as a nuanced force and for the faction conflict as actually good, but revamping all the content made it dated. Warfronts themselves blow, but using old world zone updates the way they do to advance stories is a solid approach and it also stops the landmass clutter we're doing.
    This kind of periodic thing and regional struggles would be how I'd advance faction stories in non-faction war expansion. Or the Cataclysm thing, but applied to fewer zones and made max level.
    i would say every expansion was ambition, but they are clearly doesn't go with some end goal in mind, they just have a cool moment they want to achieve, most of the time they achieve it at the beginning of the expansion .
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    I just love the idea of "I want to murder people in moderation".
    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    the only "positive" in your case is that, unlike Blizzard's writers, you aren't paid for that.

  5. #45
    Scarab Lord Maxrokur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steelballfc View Post
    i would say every expansion was ambition, but they are clearly doesn't go with some end goal in mind, they just have a cool moment they want to achieve, most of the time they achieve it at the beginning of the expansion .
    You nail it, they usually doesn't have any end goal as we saw with WoD being abandoned and throwed away Archimonde, and legion last patch literally forgot about every class storyline and the ilidarin star destroyer
    Last edited by Maxrokur; 2019-02-02 at 03:18 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varitok View Post
    No, she is my waifu. Stop posting and delete this thread immediately.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophenia View Post
    Voted Baine because... Well, Baine. Total nonsensical character, looks like World War II Italy, nobody really understands what role he's supposed to fill, not even himself

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by steelballfc View Post
    i would say every expansion was ambition, but they are clearly doesn't go with some end goal in mind, they just have a cool moment they want to achieve, most of the time they achieve it at the beginning of the expansion .
    I'll give that on other expansions, but Legion was what they intended. They were seeding things with Argus and the Army of Light from the very start, while the class halls were always basically an extra. Argus was just showing their hand. It may not have been what you or I wanted, but it was their intent.

    In the same sense that BFA will end with us teaming up under Anduin and Sadfang to defeat Sylvanas/N'zoth, despite this being a faction war expansion and it'll be what Blizzard intended even if it wouldn't have been what they sold. The concept would have failed, not the execution. With Cata, the execution is what fucked up, since too little effort was put into making a good endgame.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  7. #47
    What do you mean? It's the freshest story in the history of not just WoW, but fantasy as a whole.

  8. #48
    Scarab Lord Oneirophobia's Avatar
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    I’ve been playing my alliance characters a bit more lately because the story is at least less ridiculous because you can just assume the horde is a bunch of lolbad clods and feel alright about that.

  9. #49
    Scarab Lord Dellis0991's Avatar
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    For all the shit eating the Horde's been through, I got this feeling that the Alliance's karma point is about hit crit and they gonna be served the biggest pile of get fucked.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana View Post
    And why would they need to do that? What if the Horde is more about a story of a faction growing further apart?



    I don't know about you, but the Alliance is out there killing and fighting the Horde, including my character. So not sure what game you've been playing. With War mode turned on the threat of Alliance is rather real (in various degrees).



    Wrong. Part of the Horde has never been about being 'honorable savages'. It has always had the Forsaken (who are cruel, cold, genocidal and sadistic sometimes with a twist of science and magic added to it.)

    Even some parts of the Orcs and Trolls aren't about 'honor'. We have slave-masters, cannibals, worshippers of forbidden magic (voodoo or fel).



    And why would that be a problem? Stories evolve. The Horde's story can't always be about some messianic green guy trying to show them the new way and the promised land. It's like complaining that Thrall ruined everything the Horde worked for in WC1 and WC2.



    There'd still be 'problems' because the Forsaken and those darker parts of the Horde will always remain a facet of the Horde. There will -always- be that 'internal conflict' because the ideals of one side contradicts the ideals of the other.



    The Horde as a whole actually has a common theme: A lot of it's stories are very "green Jezus" and "brown Abrahamic", but ... it also has a big part which is more akin to Cain.

    And let's be honest, that later part has never really been given all that much attention. Garrosh was just a very brief touch upon it. The current storyline takes that a lot further.

    I'm pretty sure people would be more bored if we gotten another green Jezus redemption story... which is why I'm pretty sure Saurfang isn't going to survive this expansion. It's time for the Cain part of the Horde to get a few years in the spotlight of the storylines.
    1. Then it wasn't a good story because the Horde already grew apart in MoP, the Horde wasn't all that close together outside of Vanilla, especially after SoO. So growing apart is a weak narrative.

    2. War Mode is all gameplay mechanics though, narratively we had nelfs in Darkshore saying how they 'didn't want to fight us', and all the fighting is framed like we're afraid of the alliance dominating or enslaving us but they've never shown the Alliance wanting to do that outside of maybe some vanilla quests in Barrens. All our justifications for war feel hollow because fighting the alliance is like picking on people like a bully instead of defending ourselves.

    It might not be as bad

    3. It was supposed to be in WC3, and in Vanilla it was clear the Forsaken were doing stuff they weren't supposed to. The stuff with slave masters was supposed to be by criminals (Blizz screwed up and made them way too friendly with Horde leaders) and the Darkspear were supposed to have dropped cannibalism, and certain KINDS of voodoo and fel were originally looked down on but those plots were dropped.

    4. I don't WANT Thrall to fix things, I want the Orcs and Horde to grow beyond WC1 and WC2 on their own.

    5. Forsaken should've grown and changed after Wotlk, and in RPG even Forsaken had rules about not being -stupid evil- because it just made unnecessary enemies. There can be internal conflict about what way to do things is best but it shouldn't always feel like we're on the brink of civil war, there ought to be mutual or internal respect too.

    6. Cain was a jealous dumbass though, no one really wants to play Cain. Moreover I don't really feel that comparison holds up.
    Twas brillig

  11. #51
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
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    Obviously the only answer to this can be:

    No, you are the only one.

    Seriously...with people shitting on anything in the game...don't even try and make an ambiguous title. Just go all out "Horde Civil War is the worst thing ever and a reason why WoW is dead"

  12. #52
    Legendary! The One Percent's Avatar
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    Last edited by The One Percent; 2019-02-03 at 08:31 AM. Reason: Received Infraction
    You're getting exactly what you deserve.

  13. #53
    The Siege Of Orgrimmar sucked for ruining orc lore and by extension the lore of the Horde, and this new rebellion storyline looks its going to kill off the rest of the Horde's lore.

  14. #54
    The Lightbringer steelballfc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dellis0991 View Post
    For all the shit eating the Horde's been through, I got this feeling that the Alliance's karma point is about hit crit and they gonna be served the biggest pile of get fucked.
    how
    i can't foresee it
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    I just love the idea of "I want to murder people in moderation".
    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    the only "positive" in your case is that, unlike Blizzard's writers, you aren't paid for that.

  15. #55
    I think the point of this expansion was bringing that back into the light and actually resolving it this time, whereas MOP threw the people who supported Garrosh under the bus.

    Though I can't see any way that could possibly resolve things unless this ends in 3 factions.

  16. #56
    The Lightbringer steelballfc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    I think the point of this expansion was bringing that back into the light and actually resolving it this time, whereas MOP threw the people who supported Garrosh under the bus.

    Though I can't see any way that could possibly resolve things unless this ends in 3 factions.
    or stall the war with old god plot device
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    I just love the idea of "I want to murder people in moderation".
    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    the only "positive" in your case is that, unlike Blizzard's writers, you aren't paid for that.

  17. #57
    This comes at the cost of the essential Horde theme established ever since WoW started.

    The Horde provides variety, while the Alliance is bland. That variety comes with the benefit of colourful storytelling, but it also provides the risk of storytelling continously going the "civil war" way. The Alliance's blandness on the other hand allows only a handful of rather linear, bland and expectable stories to be told, but it comes with the benefit of faction unity.



    Horde players that play Horde because "it provides better storytelling and is more interesting", yet complain because of the recurring theme of disagreement within the faction itself, clearly need to make their mind up about which faction they definitely wish to play and for what reasons, while accepting the up and shortcomings of their choice. The same players who go about the lore subsection of MMOC and taunt Alliance players about Alliance storytelling being bland are also usually the same ones who complain about internal Horde conflict recurring as a Horde theme. It isn't an issue rooted in Blizzard's storytelling, but an issue tied to the players who play Horde for "variety" without accepting the consequences of it.

    Their unreasonable complaints aren't far from being heard though, which is why Blizzard comes up with weak and uncharacteristic storytelling on the Alliance end of things, where Tyrande acts like she's been abandoned, even though the Alliance is in this war because of what was done to the night elves in the first place. This is why Blizzard came up with Tyrande's artificial and sudden butthurt in regards to the completely unreasonable decision to fight for Darkshore, making Anduin look like a mastermind strategist in the face of a millenia-old elf. Furthermore, the night elves then enlist the Alliance's heroes to save their people's bacon and open a warfront through the Alliance's 7th Legion in Boralus.

    Players need to make their mind up and, once they do, they should stop complaining over the consequences that come with the choice they themselves make. I however have always pointed out that the lack of choices to pick from, when it comes to factions themselves, is something that indeed needs fixing; there need to be more options than the Horde or Alliance out there. This is why anyone who has a problem with the way the Horde and the Alliance are represented should be supportive of having more than two factions, instead of trying to force an unnatural development upon existing factions.
    Last edited by Magnagarde; 2019-02-02 at 09:18 PM.

  18. #58
    Scarab Lord Maxrokur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    Horde players that play Horde because "it provides better storytelling and is more interesting", yet complain because of the recurring theme of disagreement within the faction itself, clearly need to make their mind up about what faction they play.
    Dude, there is a big difference between disagreement and starting a civil war because you don't like the current governor, the alliance doesn't get much spotlight but the horde is literally just 1 storyline that is being repeated TWICE.

    I am waiting for the hentai fest of 8.2 and 8.3 to see if they can salvage anything from this but clearly this expansion is worse than WoD and that addon was abandoned at mid development for Legion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varitok View Post
    No, she is my waifu. Stop posting and delete this thread immediately.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophenia View Post
    Voted Baine because... Well, Baine. Total nonsensical character, looks like World War II Italy, nobody really understands what role he's supposed to fill, not even himself

  19. #59
    Pandaren Monk Lupinemancer's Avatar
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    I like it, it makes the Horde exciting. I wish the Alliance would have some drama, instead of being the boring unitied "good guys" faction where everyone agrees with each other.
    That what I miss about Vanilla, when the Night ELves kinda had two leaders, Tyrande and Fandral, who was trying to usurp Tyrande's rule. We need more of that!

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Maxrokur View Post
    Dude, there is a big difference between disagreement and starting a civil war because you don't like the current governor, the alliance doesn't get much spotlight but the horde is literally just 1 storyline that is being repeated TWICE.

    I am waiting for the hentai fest of 8.2 and 8.3 to see if they can salvage anything from this but clearly this expansion is worse than WoD and that addon was abandoned at mid development for Legion.
    I know, but I never expected things to be better than this in the first place. Expecting a different story with Sylvanas as a warchief is unreasonable in my opinion.

    This goes for Alliance players too. Alliance players complain about blandness, but they decided to play a bland faction that is passive-aggressive.

    This is why I already brought this up as something that is, at least in my opinion, the biggest issue here:

    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde
    I however have always pointed out that the lack of choices to pick from, when it comes to factions themselves, is something that indeed needs fixing; there need to be more options than the Horde or Alliance out there. This is why anyone who has a problem with the way the Horde and the Alliance are represented should be supportive of having more than two factions, instead of trying to force an unnatural development upon existing factions.

    The night elves and the undead being factions of their own is the only solution I see to this, but one that I don't see happening. These races' themes are either suppressed (night elves) or are completely disjointed (undead) from the faction they're a part of.
    Last edited by Magnagarde; 2019-02-02 at 09:24 PM.

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