Thread: Outlaw flaws

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  1. #21
    javanface its kinda sad, i find outlaw pretty engaging and fun to play, once i get a good roll and sinister strike procs at a decent rate.
    but those downtimes with 10+ rerolls or 10+ SS with no procs, makes you wanna throw your pc out the window!
    its the ugly face of rng.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by mojusk View Post
    javanface its kinda sad, i find outlaw pretty engaging and fun to play, once i get a good roll and sinister strike procs at a decent rate.
    but those downtimes with 10+ rerolls or 10+ SS with no procs, makes you wanna throw your pc out the window!
    its the ugly face of rng.
    Exactly. And the good RNG doesnt compensate for the bad RNG. All the top parses of Outlaw Rogues on single target fights got at least one 5x buff roll. But they still just perform average compared to other specs. Even with good RNG outlaw cant compete with assa on ST and with bad RNG it is miles behind.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunderella View Post

    oh and yeah BF being on the GDC makes it feel clunky
    This is absolutely true. In fact, if there was only 1 thing I could change on outlaw rogues right now, it would probably be to remove blade flurry from the GCD.
    I mostly play M+ and even though the RNG of RtB is a pain, it's no where near as clunky as Blade Flurry being on GCD, especially since it makes you feel like you have to "skip" a GCD worth of damage once every 15 seconds.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Exactly. And the good RNG doesnt compensate for the bad RNG. All the top parses of Outlaw Rogues on single target fights got at least one 5x buff roll. But they still just perform average compared to other specs. Even with good RNG outlaw cant compete with assa on ST and with bad RNG it is miles behind.
    well outlaw perform pretty well in BoD, i just cant make myself play it. i hate the rng playstyle.

  5. #25
    It's something i don't understand.

    RNG drives much more some classes than others, and that's something they don't normalise, they instead normalise much more things that make the classes feel much more similar to one another instead of normalise RNG so heavily RNG driven classes aren't a thing.

    Arms warrior for example, have RNG based on crit for rage generation, that's cool, you can get more crit so you can improve that, or CD recover working through RNG based on rage spent, want to improve the RNG of the spec? build well the stats and find ways to use more rage, it's a pretty cool use of RNG.

    Outlaw has something similar with the azerite trait Keep your wits about you, which improves Sinister strike procs while Blade flurry is activated, but there's nothing useful in a normal rotation for that, you can improve near to 4 or 5 Sinister strikes during the 12 seconds of Blade flurry because you have to use pistol shot procs and spend combo points (without counting stuns, mechanics, and all that jazz), so is more of an improvement for AoE than improvement over Sinister strike procs.

    RNG is cool for rotation engagement, but too much of it can feel very well or very bad, and that's not good for consistency.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by mojusk View Post
    well outlaw perform pretty well in BoD, i just cant make myself play it. i hate the rng playstyle.
    It performs well on all the AOE/cleave fights of course. But the problem with the top parses of Outlaw is that the people who made those all had very good RNG on those kills. If you get bad RNG you will perform very badly compared to other specs. The good RNG doesn't compensate for the bad RNG.

    If you compare top parses of the Outlaw Rogue to the top parses of Demon Hunters, then you can see that the Outlaw Rogue need good RNG to perform as well as an average demon hunter.

  7. #27
    I only play two toon. Druid and Rogue. Rogue is my alt and is about 400ilvl. Ive done what I can to make things work with Outlaw but the numbers just arent there. Im going to just play Sin. Like others have said, the RNG aspect is just too much and Im very unlucky in terms of RNG. Lol. So Im just going to move to something way less RNG until something gets changed.

  8. #28
    High Overlord
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    I have tried my best to love or at least enjoy outlaw playstyle, but there's just too much RNG. You can either keep up with any other DPS spec on a boss fight if you get lucky with rolls or get beaten by a tank if you reroll 10 times and get nothing worthy to keeping.
    Outlaw has the potential to be great with few changes like:
    - Remove GCD on BF (as others mentioned it feels way too clunky)
    - Reduce the number of buffs (6 is way too much when in reality all you care about is CRIT or 2 buffs only)
    or
    - Rework mastery to increase the chance of rolling extra buffs

    Until then anything gets done to minimise the RNG of Outlaw spec I will be switching back to SIN.

  9. #29
    Herald of the Titans Battlebeard's Avatar
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    Roll the Bones killed the specc for me. I played Combat from Vanilla to WoD and when they added this, and gave it so much RNG, it just took away all the fun. And no, Slice and Dice doesn't solve the core problem. I always hated that ability too.

  10. #30
    Given that having 2 buffs is always a good situation i would say that a good rework for roll the bones would be that it throws two dices so it gives a pair of buffs every time and when both dices roll the same buff one of them just roll again or give the single buff plus an extra buff like lost paradise does, and i'm not thinking about lost paradise's buff, if not something more like a buff that empowers that single buff, making that single buffs could get interesting while being very hard to get and when a bad/weak even empowered single buff appears it would get much more less punishing than today to simply reroll it.

    This way would give away the little probability of getting all the buffs less one but would also give away and smooth a lot the great downtime of having bad RNG while azerite traits and talents could be redesigned in a better way without having to balance roll the bones, like replacing the loaded dice talent, the lost paradise trait, replacing/modifying snake eyes trait, balancing or replacing the slice and dice talent, etc.

    We could have better talents/traits while bad luck becomes from getting single weak buffs from getting two weak buffs which is much more better.

    Also overall damage or some buffs would need readjustment due to this change but it would get roll the bones in a much more better situation.

    Just think about it, some single buffs already change the way the spec flows, others simply don't, but with this most of the time roll the bones would modify the flow or rotation by one way or another, and when some pairs doesn't, it would just need synergy readjustments to make it more interesting (or don't, simply having two buffs already is good enough even being a mix or true bearing and buried treasure).

    What do you think?
    Last edited by Aldo Hawk; 2019-03-07 at 04:24 AM.

  11. #31
    I think Roll the Bones is actually ok. Or rather, it would be. If they balanced the buffs. Like Aldo Hawk just said, some single buffs totally change the gameplay style and some don't. In an ideal world all of the single buffs would and yeah, there'd always be a 'best' option but at least the need to re-roll would either be non-existent or far far less than it is now. To quote the Ravenholdt guide for Outlaw "The benefits of rerolling do not change no matter how bad your luck has been so far. This means there is no point where rerolling becomes not worth it. Always reroll until you get the buffs required."

    That's just not fun gameplay. You want to spend your points on damage because that's kind of core to the Rogue class. You don't want to spend them refreshing a buff over and over and over again. I really like whoever suggested that the mastery be re-worked to include some increase in rolling 2 or more buffs on a %. Not an ideal solution, but I've been saying for awhile that Outlaw/Combat's mastery is the most boring thing about it and it's always the worst stat. Would be nice for Mastery to be a good stat for once if they actually changed it to something like this.

    Lastly, yeah. In agreement about the talents on some of the tiers. They're just...odd. Especially the level 90 tier with Alacrity/Loaded Dice/Slice and Dice. I'd rather Alacrity be removed/baked in and something else be added here or rework this entire tier. Look at our level 100 talents, this is where things are great IMO. Dancing Steel, Blade Rush and Killing Spree are all equally viable in various situations (usually between single target, AOE and M+ but hey better than other tiers right?) and I wish the other talent levels were of a similar 'all viable given the situation' kind of thing. If I had my way, I'd also rework the first tier to be entirely about Pistol Shot. Quickdraw + Weaponmaster are fine one makes shot do more damage, one procs the opportunity shot more often. I wish Ghostly Strike was changed to be another Pistol Shot changing flavor to something more interesting.

  12. #32
    I'd suggest RtB buffs which are closer to each other in their output (and maybe more interesting, so like every buff changes the play style a little), and RtB itself got a cooldown of like 10-15 seconds.

  13. #33
    The problem is that they can't really buff the "bad RtB options", that would have the opposite effect, as you indirectly lower the power of dispatch vs RtB buffs.
    And since any 2 buff combo would then become increasingly strong, you would ALWAYS want to reroll for two buffs over using dispatch.

    So the only realistic way to fix the issue that isn't a bandaid fix, would be to make getting 1 buff not feel as bad or make it less common.

    So as per my first post in this topic:
    For example:
    - Make loaded dice baseline. Nobody picks this talent as it's clearly inferior to alacrity; but it makes a lot of openers a lot more clean and RNG free. At least on boss fights you're guaranteed to at least start out well with all your procs and bloodlust when you get a 2+ buff minimum during AR.

    - Make something like Paradise lost baseline. Maybe even make it stack so that after 2-3 rerolls, sticking with a single buff is superior over rerolling a 4th time. That way it doesn't feel like you're stuck in this infinite reroll loop where you feel like the fight is over before you get any dispatches out.
    In practice I find the RtB rotation a lot more bearable now that BtE has priority over rerolling. At least it feels like I'm also doing some damage finishers even on unlucky streaks.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Nythiz View Post
    The problem is that they can't really buff the "bad RtB options", that would have the opposite effect, as you indirectly lower the power of dispatch vs RtB buffs.
    And since any 2 buff combo would then become increasingly strong, you would ALWAYS want to reroll for two buffs over using dispatch.

    So the only realistic way to fix the issue that isn't a bandaid fix, would be to make getting 1 buff not feel as bad or make it less common.

    So as per my first post in this topic:


    In practice I find the RtB rotation a lot more bearable now that BtE has priority over rerolling. At least it feels like I'm also doing some damage finishers even on unlucky streaks.
    The spec has plenty of RNG. They should just remove 2x and 5x buff rolls and buff the single buffs.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Nythiz View Post
    The problem is that they can't really buff the "bad RtB options", that would have the opposite effect, as you indirectly lower the power of dispatch vs RtB buffs.
    And since any 2 buff combo would then become increasingly strong, you would ALWAYS want to reroll for two buffs over using dispatch.
    Boy do I have some bad news for you...it's uh...already this way more or less. The only single buff you keep anymore is Ruthless Precision. You don't even keep solo Grand Melee anymore in a world where you have Deadshot or Ace Up Your Sleeve, and basically every raiding Outlaw rogue has at least one of those. I just hope that the 8.2 rework of the Azerite trait system doesn't screw up working BTE ahead of re-roll logic or plunge the spec further into the 'always reroll until you get precision or 2 buffs' territory. Ideally it would help alleviate RtB reroll logic like Legion did with the Loaded Dice trait not being a talent. Hopefully it's something even better this time.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathris View Post
    Boy do I have some bad news for you...it's uh...already this way more or less. The only single buff you keep anymore is Ruthless Precision. You don't even keep solo Grand Melee anymore in a world where you have Deadshot or Ace Up Your Sleeve, and basically every raiding Outlaw rogue has at least one of those. I just hope that the 8.2 rework of the Azerite trait system doesn't screw up working BTE ahead of re-roll logic or plunge the spec further into the 'always reroll until you get precision or 2 buffs' territory. Ideally it would help alleviate RtB reroll logic like Legion did with the Loaded Dice trait not being a talent. Hopefully it's something even better this time.
    You say that like I don't know that.
    Doesn't change my point that buffing individual RtB buffs will only make things worse, not better.
    Then you'd have to nerf the top end, but you also don't want to lose the feeling the buffs have an impact on your rotation and output; so that's hard as well.

    In the end it comes down that balancing individual RtB buffs will always be a utopian reality. When gear shifts and with azerite traits in existence the buffs will always shift in priority. For all we know they nerf DS and AUYS traits and buff Brigand's Blitz and suddenly we're all rolling for True Bearing again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    The spec has plenty of RNG. They should just remove 2x and 5x buff rolls and buff the single buffs.
    I personally disagree, but I guess opinions can differ on that front.
    I would hate for RtB to just become SnD 2.0 where it's a token buff you just need to keep up.

    I quite like the rerolling and the 2x and 5x buff; while it can be frustrating, it also gives a good feeling when you do hit those good buffs.
    I just think they should tweak it on the lower end so that the cases where you're rerolling 4+ times doesn't feel as bad.

    And as I said before the fact that BtE is already higher prio (assuming you have PS/AUYS traits, but I think everyone does), which takes away a massive pain, as at least you'll be using BtE every 3-4 rerolls.
    Last edited by Nythiz; 2019-03-07 at 12:45 PM.

  17. #37
    i think that the spec is decent, the only thing i want for blizzard to do is make Loaded Dice baseline like it was in legion, getting cucked by bad RtB procs on pull when CDs are up can gimp your dps

  18. #38
    all they need to do is add a cooldown on rtb to remove rerolling, then balance it a bit

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Nythiz View Post
    You say that like I don't know that.
    Doesn't change my point that buffing individual RtB buffs will only make things worse, not better.
    Then you'd have to nerf the top end, but you also don't want to lose the feeling the buffs have an impact on your rotation and output; so that's hard as well.

    In the end it comes down that balancing individual RtB buffs will always be a utopian reality. When gear shifts and with azerite traits in existence the buffs will always shift in priority. For all we know they nerf DS and AUYS traits and buff Brigand's Blitz and suddenly we're all rolling for True Bearing again.



    I personally disagree, but I guess opinions can differ on that front.
    I would hate for RtB to just become SnD 2.0 where it's a token buff you just need to keep up.

    I quite like the rerolling and the 2x and 5x buff; while it can be frustrating, it also gives a good feeling when you do hit those good buffs.
    I just think they should tweak it on the lower end so that the cases where you're rerolling 4+ times doesn't feel as bad.

    And as I said before the fact that BtE is already higher prio (assuming you have PS/AUYS traits, but I think everyone does), which takes away a massive pain, as at least you'll be using BtE every 3-4 rerolls.
    What I dont like is that we currently need at least one 5x buff roll to compete with a DH on a Single Target fight. So we are not rewarded for good RNG but only punished for bad RNG (on single target fights).

    Outlaw AOE however is OP.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    It performs well on all the AOE/cleave fights of course. But the problem with the top parses of Outlaw is that the people who made those all had very good RNG on those kills. If you get bad RNG you will perform very badly compared to other specs. The good RNG doesn't compensate for the bad RNG.

    If you compare top parses of the Outlaw Rogue to the top parses of Demon Hunters, then you can see that the Outlaw Rogue need good RNG to perform as well as an average demon hunter.
    Lmao here you go with your 5 roll bullshit again. Do you even play outlaw? What logs are you looking at, heroic? We perform, on average, better than demon hunters on 7/9 fights, hello? The only fight where they do considerably better is Mekka because our alacrity drops while they get to use their meta on landing.

    Or are you looking at irrelevant heroic logs, where everything gets zerged down? Because I have a very helpful graph for you, for those logs:



    All of my parses are high purple / orange, with a 99 on mythic grong last night without a single 5 roll, without a good st helmet (snake eyes/wits), and with no mythic weapons as I was tanking before this week. Weird,huh.

    Yes the RNG is there, but the fight length makes up for the rng every single time. If you're not doing good damage as outlaw its not because "MUH 5 Roll" , its because your roll priority is terrible, or your azerite is terrible.

    There are two valid points here, BF on GCD needs to go, and Double roll on AR needs to come back.
    Last edited by Sinte; 2019-03-07 at 06:58 PM.

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