Outlaw flaws

[Kaver]

Lmao here you go with your 5 roll bullshit again. Do you even play outlaw? What logs are you looking at, heroic? We perform, on average, better than demon hunters on 7/9 fights, hello? The only fight where they do considerably better is Mekka because our alacrity drops while they get to use their meta on landing.

Or are you looking at irrelevant heroic logs, where everything gets zerged down? Because I have a very helpful graph for you, for those logs:



All of my parses are high purple / orange, with a 99 on mythic grong last night without a single 5 roll, without a good st helmet (snake eyes/wits), and with no mythic weapons as I was tanking before this week. Weird,huh.

Yes the RNG is there, but the fight length makes up for the rng every single time. If you're not doing good damage as outlaw its not because "MUH 5 Roll" , its because your roll priority is terrible, or your azerite is terrible.

There are two valid points here, BF on GCD needs to go, and Double roll on AR needs to come back.

Mate I get your points. But please keep a sober language. There is no need to become so aggressive towards me. I'm just pointing out some "concerns". They might be wrong but you can explain that without getting nasty.

My concerns based on logs from Mythic Grong for example. https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/ra...ue&spec=Outlaw

All the tops logs got 5x buff rolls close to the beginning of the fight. And they all as a minimum got a 2x buff roll on the opener. So great RNG. But they still don't out-dps the top DH logs which don't have the same amount of RNG involved. And I'm just thinking, what is the point of RNG if you're not king when you get good RNG.

That said, I'm all down for making 2x buff rolls baseline for AR and call it a day.

[Djanco]

i think something outlaw could benefit from is just a baseline energy regen if RtB is active regardless of buff and more of an active role of gameplay change depending on what buff you have. i've always seen outlaw (and combat) as the "builder" spec, your combo point building abilities do more damage than finishers. so maybe something like one of the currently shittier buffs could be changed to make pistol shot do more baseline damage to incentivize using a different builder for the duration of the buff or maybe bring back expose armor as an outlaw specific debuff to maintain for extra raid damage. i don't know. just spitballing. either way loaded dice should be baseline if the current reroll logic is to always have 2+ buffs

[Powerogue]

Losing the artifact ability left a huge gaping hole in their burst DPS that killing spree/blade rush do absolutely nothing to negate, considering they both rely heavily on hitting 4+ targets for even tolerable damage.

The cannonball thing was fun too, used that a lot while soloing.

I don't care that they're doing adequately overall DPS wise, the fact is they don't feel like it. I can't pvp for crap without burst, and they gutted my spec fantasy just as they finally let me have a pirate themed zone and outfits.

I've played this spec, in some variant, since late vanilla, and this is the only expansion to ever make me hate it so much I just avoid playing the character entirely despite it being my main.

[Vitinariy]

Is anyone at all excited about our mastery? I think it should just be rolled out into a passive skill and mastery should be changed completely.
For example something like: "Increases your chance to receive 2 buffs on Roll the Bones by X%".
That would maintain the RNG fantasy they seem to want to keep, but still give us an option to be less unhappy about rolls. It also has potential to make mastery great again.

[Biomega]

Is anyone at all excited about our mastery? I think it should just be rolled out into a passive skill and mastery should be changed completely.
For example something like: "Increases your chance to receive 2 buffs on Roll the Bones by X%".
That would maintain the RNG fantasy they seem to want to keep, but still give us an option to be less unhappy about rolls. It also has potential to make mastery great again.

Mastery is decidedly boring and uninspired on a number of classes. At least ours isn't just a literal "increases your damage by X%" like it is for some others.

I do agree that it could be more interesting, and that there are many ways to potentially go about that. The goal, I think, would be to add something that actually changes what you do. For example, rather than giving you a higher chance to get the right RtB roll, it could be something that changes the reroll logic entirely once you reach certain thresholds - by, for example, increasing the power of individual RtB effects (not all of which are on a linear scale) or adding some sort of secondary benefit that scales with mastery, or whatever. That's for Blizz to figure out and what we pay them for.

[Aldo Hawk]

Is anyone at all excited about our mastery? I think it should just be rolled out into a passive skill and mastery should be changed completely.
For example something like: "Increases your chance to receive 2 buffs on Roll the Bones by X%".
That would maintain the RNG fantasy they seem to want to keep, but still give us an option to be less unhappy about rolls. It also has potential to make mastery great again.

I don't think that making the mastery about roll the bones would be healthy for the spec, since if for example you don't get two buffs after rolling like 3 or 4 times even having high mastery that means that you are not using it.

And even after having those two buffs, that mastery would be there sitting doing nothing.

I think mastery should be involved with sinister strike proc chance and energy costs and maybe also increasing pistol shot and BtE crit chance and it's damage.

[ymirsson]

I don't think that making the mastery about roll the bones would be healthy for the spec, since if for example you don't get two buffs after rolling like 3 or 4 times even having high mastery that means that you are not using it.

And even after having those two buffs, that mastery would be there sitting doing nothing.

I think mastery should be involved with sinister strike proc chance and energy costs and maybe also increasing pistol shot and BtE crit chance and it's damage.

That's like saying any mastery that is a proc is not used, therefore useless, if it doesn't proc. That's not how DPS works.

[Aldo Hawk]

That's like saying any mastery that is a proc is not used, therefore useless, if it doesn't proc. That's not how DPS works.

If you don't get two buffs after rolling like 3 or 4 times even having high mastery that means that you are not using it.

And even after having those two buffs, that mastery would be there sitting doing nothing.

That quantity of stats would be more useful in another stat than mastery.

That would be worst than the current mastery, since that mastery you just defended would just be useful until you get two buffs and then it would not do anything at all.

Also... You can't compare a proc like main gauche with a proc like double buffs from RTB. It doesn't fix what's wrong about RtB and when it procs it would just sits there doing nothing at all.

[Polarthief]

I feel like if they tweaked RtB to not be shit (like melding S&C and BT into other rolls like BS and TB, removing 5 rolls, and making 2-rolls more often), and also made our Mastery not dogshit garbage, and made our spenders besides BtE feel good, then we'd have a pretty nice spec overall.

The problem is we have an incompetent dev team who thinks abandoning class design, right after they stripped away a lot of class design (artifacts, legendaries, tier sets) is a good idea.

[ymirsson]

If you don't get two buffs after rolling like 3 or 4 times even having high mastery that means that you are not using it.

And even after having those two buffs, that mastery would be there sitting doing nothing.

That quantity of stats would be more useful in another stat than mastery.

That would be worst than the current mastery, since that mastery you just defended would just be useful until you get two buffs and then it would not do anything at all.

Also... You can't compare a proc like main gauche with a proc like double buffs from RTB. It doesn't fix what's wrong about RtB and when it procs it would just sits there doing nothing at all.

It wouldn't fix the fundamental flaws, indeed. But that proposed mastery wouldn't be different from any other percent chance for a positive effect, which does othing if does not happen.
Do you feel that Main Gauche mastery is wasted, each time an attack does not trigger it?

[Vitinariy]

Actually, maybe scratch the previous suggestion. They can just easily rework Loaded Dice into something like: "Rerolling a 5 CP RtB within 5-7 seconds of the previous one, guarantees you rolling 2 buffs". This way it's both less random and not tied to AR.

Mastery is still not cool though. The only melee mastery I like so far is WW monks, since it's the only mastery that interacts with your rotation. I really wish more classes could have something similar.

[Aldo Hawk]

It wouldn't fix the fundamental flaws, indeed. But that proposed mastery wouldn't be different from any other percent chance for a positive effect, which does othing if does not happen.
Do you feel that Main Gauche mastery is wasted, each time an attack does not trigger it?

No, i feel it's wasted when the same quantity of the stat it's better in any other one making mastery feel like a consolation prize.

When i think about changes for Outlaw i don't think on small patches. There is a good base for it but mechanics wise is totally broken.

[ymirsson]

But that's different statement. And if you argue that the mastery is bad mechanics wise, then a redesign should of course contain a rebalancing.

[Mamercus]

I think outlaw is fine except for the mastery being kind of bad. The BFA remake of Outlaw was very successful in terms of making it more fun and more usable. If you don't like how outlaw plays in raid because of its bad consistency and mediocre ST, then assassin is waiting for you over there (and sub too whenever it's made into a non-cripple spec).

I agree that loaded dice belongs as a baseline passive. I don't think it would make the class too powerful. It would just make it so that you don't have situations in which you are a potato on a boss in M+ rerolling until it's at 30% health. Even that is not so bad because of the spec strengths on trash. You will either be on par with other classes or a bit better or you will be potato level and you just have to plan your comp etc. around that.

[Polarthief]

I think outlaw is fine except for the mastery being kind of bad. The BFA remake of Outlaw was very successful in terms of making it more fun and more usable. If you don't like how outlaw plays in raid because of its bad consistency and mediocre ST, then assassin is waiting for you over there (and sub too whenever it's made into a non-cripple spec).

There's a huge difference between "bad consistency" and "being the most inconsistent spec in the game that also doesn't make up for its bad RNG with the good RNG".
For the rotation, it's fine, it just need RtB tweaks and a Mastery change, but to say "well the RNG is fine so deal with it" isn't really fair. If you end up rerolling for an entire fight, that's not only unfun, but it tanks your DPS. Even getting 2 5-rolls won't make you the top DPS on equal skill, which is kinda BS all things considered.

[Kaver]

There's a huge difference between "bad consistency" and "being the most inconsistent spec in the game that also doesn't make up for its bad RNG with the good RNG".
For the rotation, it's fine, it just need RtB tweaks and a Mastery change, but to say "well the RNG is fine so deal with it" isn't really fair. If you end up rerolling for an entire fight, that's not only unfun, but it tanks your DPS. Even getting 2 5-rolls won't make you the top DPS on equal skill, which is kinda BS all things considered.

How Blizzard currently think: "How do we make this spec fit our 2019 design philosophy?"

How Blizzard should think: "How do we make this spec most fun for players?"

[Mamercus]

There's a huge difference between "bad consistency" and "being the most inconsistent spec in the game that also doesn't make up for its bad RNG with the good RNG".
For the rotation, it's fine, it just need RtB tweaks and a Mastery change, but to say "well the RNG is fine so deal with it" isn't really fair. If you end up rerolling for an entire fight, that's not only unfun, but it tanks your DPS. Even getting 2 5-rolls won't make you the top DPS on equal skill, which is kinda BS all things considered.

It does though in certain situations. Ever play outlaw in M+? There's a reason why it's such a common spec in competition. I even said "loaded dice should be a baseline passive," which would make the spec even more powerful than it already is.

[Polarthief]

How Blizzard currently think: "How do we make this spec fit our 2019 design philosophy?"

How Blizzard should think: "How do we make this spec most fun for players?"

Basically, and boy do they love their RNG so Outlaw is probably their most favorite spec. It's honestly not terrible rotationally; the whole key to Outlaw's "difficulty" is knowing when to reroll and knowing when to hold the buff(s). Sometimes it's obvious (if you have RP or 2/5 rolls, never reroll), while other times, it's not as obvious (you have GM on something that constantly deals damage, or a couple mobs with a mediocre buff but BF is active), but I do enjoy it when it's not just constantly rerolling bad (read: BT and S&C especially; TB and BS have their uses) 1-rolls. Some light (or heavy) tweaks to RtB would go a long way. Wouldn't see it in a patch, but I'd love to see S&C and BT molded into BS and TB to give them some extra value, such as BS still gives a CP but now also has an increased (not +30%) chance to proc SS's extra slash, and TB still doubles the effect of Restless Blades, but now also comes with 10 energy per second (since the 4 was pretty dang weak).

Then you also have the absolutely useless Mastery and a relatively-not-powerful-3m-cooldown (which mostly just affects things like the cooldown essence or Convergence of Fates from last expansion; anything that adds CDR to all the big cooldowns of a class). It already has some decent CDR, but when all specs get CDR to boot, it can make the spec much weaker in ST-only fights, something Outlaw is already struggling with. What if the Mastery was changed to revolve around RtB completely?
"Your Roll the Bones ability has an X% higher chance to roll more than 1 enhancement and all Roll the Bones abilities have a Y% increased effect."*
People earlier mentioned how just having the former would make it 'worthless' when you have RtB or when you don't have 2+ buffs, which is where the secondary effect takes place. Imagine buffing some of those benefits by 30-50% or something like that (or however much it scaled)! Imagine where you actually get more 2-rolls than 1-rolls (but you'd probably have to sacrifice a lot of other stats to accomplish that)! That said, I would also flat out remove 5-rolls (would have to if my tweaks went in anyway) and put in 3-rolls instead (at a much higher rate than the ridiculous 1% 5-roll). A 5-roll with increased effects would be insane and there's way too much variance between getting 1-2 5-rolls (the outliers) and getting 0 (the norm). There's simply no need for it.

Idk, that's how I'd heavily tweak Outlaw without changing it rotationally. The Mastery not being tied to RtB is honestly a crime at this point, and RtB itself needs some tweaks, badly.

*Just so it's crystal clear for each buff:
- RP: Affects the crit of both BtE and everything else
- GM: Affects both the attack speed and leech
- TB: The coding still recognizes that TB is just half of what it was in Legion: 1s per CP. A 50% increased effect would be 1.5s per CP. 30% would be 1.3s per CP, etc. Assuming my "heavy tweak" went in too, it would also increase the energy regen benefit.
- BS: This one would be weird. It would give a chance to proc yet another bonus CP, with the chance being Y%. So if you have a 50% Y, you'd get 2 CP per SS, with 3 CP 50% of the time. Assuming my "heavy tweak" went in too, this would also affect the S&C portion, though it might be a little too busted then. Should consider swapping S&C and BT with each other when melding them with TB/BS.
- BT and S&C: Already said above, but it'd just equate to more energy regen and more SS proc chance.

[glowpipe]

the best change for rtb is making all the buffs semi balanced and add a cooldown so rerolling is completely out of the question. Thats what i hate the absolute most with outlaw, having to fish for buffs, main reason im not even trying the spec again after legion

[Varolyn]

I really wish blizz would do something to make Outlaw's single target opener damage to be a little higher. Right now it's pathetic most of the time, and even if you get a five roll on pull the opener damage isn't anything crazy at all. Perhaps they could make KS a more viable option again to give outlaw a little more ST firepower.