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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Terongor View Post
    Yeah they did, but the others orcs didn't know about this. Gul'dan killed few survivors and then told other clans that Draenai attacked unprovoked. From perspective of other clans it was Draenai wiped out a clan before they did anything to them.
    But that still cant be lebeled off as the Dreanei starting the war since we know what actually happened.

    Still doesn't matter for this argument as chronicles 3 stated Daelin started the war against the orcs in TFT no buts or anything. If chronicles stated KT started the war then they started the war.
    Yes but Thrall actions should also be put on the list since he himself attacked the Alliance. If we count the dwarves actions against the Frostwolves then its only fair to do the same with Thrall.

    Alliance had no right to capture Grom as he wasn't alliance citizen.
    He invaded and waged war against the Alliance, and they had no right to imprison him? Are you joking?

    There were texts that during after TFT Dalaran forces which were allied with southshore had killed wandering forsaken and helped othe human factions against Undeads and other horde races in silverpine attacking them. as Dalaran was a member of the alliance and southshore too which means that Dalaran forces in silverpine did to the first strike.
    For the sake of it lets say you are right, but what did Southshore had to do with a couple of mages in some far out backwater village? Or what did the humans from Arathi had to do with it, because the Forsaken launched attacks there as well. You seriously think the Forsaken launched entire campgains because of a couple of mages were in a village in Silverpine? That they were all in a state harmony, not wanting to attack anyone but immediatly when they heard about a couple of those meddling mages in some village they decided its war to the death? From Tirisfal its clear they hate any human presence and they give quests to wipe them all out.



    NE never demanded them on stopping as a term for the alliance as such it means orcs claimed the territory and NE never demanded it back as such it was NE aggresion again.

    The wilds of the Ashenvale forest will succumb to the might of the Horde, <race>. Nothing the Silverwing say or do can stop our sovereign imperative. Kalimdor belongs to the Horde. How dare they attempt to prevent us from harvesting what is rightfully ours!

    Let the pride swell in your chest as you cut down their weak attempts at slowing our progress. Destroy the Silverwing Sentinels, and earn a Warsong mark of honor. Return to me with such a mark, <name>, and you will be rewarded.
    Last edited by ausoin; 2019-02-10 at 06:33 PM.

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    But that still cant be lebeled off as the Dreanei starting the war since we know what actually happened.



    Yes but Thrall actions should also be put on the list since he himself attacked the Alliance. If we count the dwarves actions against the Frostwolves then its only fair to do the same with Thrall.



    He invaded and waged war against the Alliance, and they had no right to imprison him? Are you joking?



    For the sake of it lets say you are right, but what did Southshore had to do with a couple of mages in some far out backwater village? Or what did the humans from Arathi had to do with it, because the Forsaken launched attacks there as well. You seriously think the Forsaken launched entire campgains because of a couple of mages were in a village in Silverpine? That they were all in a state harmony, not wanting to attack anyone but immediatly when they heard about a couple of those meddling mages in some village they decided its war to the death? From Tirisfal its clear they hate any human presence and they give quests to wipe them all out.
    As draenai wiping them of caused the orcs going into war so yes we can as even Velen said in chronicles 2 that wiping out a clan would cause a total war against the orcs and draenai knowingly caused it and didn't try to do any diplomacy.

    As it didn't cause a major battle or a war no it doesn't as it would lead into having to list EVERYLAST SKIRMISH and KT troops killing darkspears on their island and all that which didn't leave into a major battle.

    How did he invade? he tried to protect the dark portal from the alliance and later just tried to find out a way to free the orcs.

    It doesn't matter that they don't want to attack or get attacked they are allied to people who has attacked and dalaran controlled alot of area in vanilla silverpine.

    Most of that can be taken as nationalistic motivational speak and as the area which they gather lumbers is still the same as Orcs have always used to terms to motivate . Silverwing is the faction that tries to end the horde gathering lumber, whiches words and actions tries to stop the orcs taking the woods

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Terongor View Post
    As draenai wiping them of caused the orcs going into war so yes we can as even Velen said in chronicles 2 that wiping out a clan would cause a total war against the orcs and draenai knowingly caused it and didn't try to do any diplomacy.
    Yes yes its always the Alliance races that have to do any diplomacy, always.

    As it didn't cause a major battle or a war no it doesn't as it would lead into having to list EVERYLAST SKIRMISH and KT troops killing darkspears on their island and all that which didn't leave into a major battle.
    Neither did the dwarves against the frostwolves then.
    How did he invade? he tried to protect the dark portal from the alliance and later just tried to find out a way to free the orcs.
    Um maybe ambushing Alliance forces under Danath? Or sieging an Alliance stronghold, Netherguard? No that's def not waging war and invading.

    It doesn't matter that they don't want to attack or get attacked they are allied to people who has attacked and dalaran controlled alot of area in vanilla silverpine.
    Yeah expect the Forsaken didnt attack becuase of those mages, the starting zone presents a clear picture of the Forsaken views of human survivors, they didnt launch all those campgains because some mages were in a backwater village doing mumbo jumbo.

    Most of that can be taken as nationalistic motivational speak and as the area which they gather lumbers is still the same as Orcs have always used to terms to motivate Silverwing is the faction that tries to end the horde gathering lumber, whiches words and actions tries to stop the orcs taking the woods
    His motivational speak is shared amongst most orcs, even Saurfag. The point is Ashenvale is NE territory, the Warsong clan refused to leave, even after they found out it was occupied, the NE attacks in vanilla prove they dont want orcs in their land.
    Last edited by ausoin; 2019-02-10 at 08:58 PM.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    Yes yes its always the Alliance races that have to do any diplomacy, always.



    Neither did the dwarves against the frostwolves then.


    Um maybe ambushing Alliance forces under Danath? Or sieging an Alliance stronghold, Netherguard? No that's def not waging war and invading.



    Yeah expect the Forsaken didnt attack becuase of those mages, the starting zone presents a clear picture of the Forsaken views of human survivors, they didnt launch all those campgains because some mages were in a backwater village doing mumbo jumbo.



    His motivational speak is shared amongst most orcs, even Saurfag. The point is Ashenvale is NE territory, the Warsong clan refused to leave, even after they found out it was occupied, the NE attacks in vanilla prove they dont want orcs in their land.
    Well its the fault that does the actions what escalates the thing and yeah horde does stuff, but many things which we talked before were escalated by the alliance. As after the draenai defeated the ogres some major orcs clans viewed draenai as the treacherous invaders. After the destruction of the bladewind clan even the ancestral spirits told to orcs that Draenai wanted to wipe them all out like the bladewind clan.

    As Velen knew that some major clans viewed them as treacherous invaders it would only make sense for him to try to negotiate with other clans and prove their innocence as everything from orcs pov pointed draenai being evil.

    As the orc rogue commander in bfa refers that battle for alterac took many days and alliance invaded frostwolf land and tried to take it. I would say that is a major battle.

    Its the same kind of attacking as alliance invaded draenor with out any reason.

    Well they still attacked first as such forsakens only sought to protect their lands from alliance bringing more troops there.

    They didn't demand the orcs the leave in wc3 when they made the alliance and peace, as such alliance as when they make peace they didn't demand orcs to leave ashenvale in wc3 they regonise the outpost as orchiss territory.

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Terongor View Post
    Well its the fault that does the actions what escalates the thing and yeah horde does stuff, but many things which we talked before were escalated by the alliance. As after the draenai defeated the ogres some major orcs clans viewed draenai as the treacherous invaders. After the destruction of the bladewind clan even the ancestral spirits told to orcs that Draenai wanted to wipe them all out like the bladewind clan.

    As Velen knew that some major clans viewed them as treacherous invaders it would only make sense for him to try to negotiate with other clans and prove their innocence as everything from orcs pov pointed draenai being evil.

    As the orc rogue commander in bfa refers that battle for alterac took many days and alliance invaded frostwolf land and tried to take it. I would say that is a major battle.

    Its the same kind of attacking as alliance invaded draenor with out any reason.

    Well they still attacked first as such forsakens only sought to protect their lands from alliance bringing more troops there.

    They didn't demand the orcs the leave in wc3 when they made the alliance and peace, as such alliance as when they make peace they didn't demand orcs to leave ashenvale in wc3 they regonise the outpost as orchiss territory.
    Yeah but they still were the agressors, its a moot point to discuss anyway since it was the old Horde.

    And Thrall attacks on the camps formed one of the most numerous and powerfull races of the todays Horde. His battles were also numerous and lasted for a good while.

    Alliance attacking Dreanor for no reason? They opened the portal and immediatly besieged a Alliance stronhold, ambushed a Stormwinds army under Danath and raided Alliance locations to obtain powerfull artifacts. Cmon now.

    The Arathi battleground and Southshore had nothing to do with a couple of mages in Silverpine, also where is this logic with the case of Grom and how the Alliance had no right to imprison Grom? Or attack Dreanor?

    They didnt regnocise anything, talk about headcanon, in vanilla they fought to push the orcs out, that is a clear message of their demands.
    Last edited by ausoin; 2019-02-10 at 09:56 PM.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    Yeah but they still were the agressors, its a moot point to discuss anyway since it was the old Horde.

    And Thrall attacks on the camps formed one of the most numerous and powerfull races of the todays Horde. His battles were also numerous and lasted for a good while.

    Alliance attacking Dreanor for no reason? They opened the portal and immediatly besieged a Alliance stronhold, ambushed a Stormwinds army under Danath and raided Alliance locations to obtain powerfull artifacts. Cmon now.

    The Arathi battleground and Southshore had nothing to do with a couple of mages in Silverpine, also where is this logic with the case of Grom and how the Alliance had no right to imprison Grom? Or attack Dreanor?

    They didnt regnocise anything, talk about headcanon, in vanilla they fought to push the orcs out, that is a clear message of their demands.
    That is true, but defensive war is defined as in many cases as attacking perceived hostile force before it attacks you as an act of maintaning indepence or survival.

    We I admit there one more major war/battle started by horde.

    As Alliance knew they were going to leave draenor for other world which would make their treath to azeroth minimal.

    As the forces in arathi and southshore were allied with the mages who were currently attacking the horde as opposed. capturing Grom who only tried keep his people safe from things happening in interment camps.

    If you make an peace with an enemy and ally with him and don't demand the lands they took from you by regnocise the land as theirs. As they you can't be in war and allied at the same time they made peace in Hyjal and clearly NE didn't demand warsong operations to stop then as they were gathering lumber there still from wc3 till vanilla atleast.

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Terongor View Post
    That is true, but defensive war is defined as in many cases as attacking perceived hostile force before it attacks you as an act of maintaning indepence or survival.

    We I admit there one more major war/battle started by horde.

    As Alliance knew they were going to leave draenor for other world which would make their treath to azeroth minimal.

    As the forces in arathi and southshore were allied with the mages who were currently attacking the horde as opposed. capturing Grom who only tried keep his people safe from things happening in interment camps.

    If you make an peace with an enemy and ally with him and don't demand the lands they took from you by regnocise the land as theirs. As they you can't be in war and allied at the same time they made peace in Hyjal and clearly NE didn't demand warsong operations to stop then as they were gathering lumber there still from wc3 till vanilla atleast.
    Who says the orcs wouldnt have returned? The portal was only shut after taking back one of the stolen artifacts from Dreanor. And Nerzull portals from Dreanor would have destroyed the Eastern kingdom if left unchecked since it corrupted the land.

    This is really streching it, going by that the Horde is already at total war against the Alliance. Those mages started the whole thing!

    Grom attacked and waged war against the Alliance they had every right to imprison him, end of story.

    Who says they didnt demand? They cleary didnt want them there. Its their lands and the Warsong didnt care,and Thrall did nothing about it because the plot demanded it.
    Last edited by ausoin; 2019-02-10 at 11:35 PM.

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    Who says the orcs wouldnt have returned? The portal was only shut after taking back one of the stolen artifacts from Dreanor. And Nerzull portals from Dreanor would have destroyed the Eastern kingdom if left unchecked since it corrupted the land.

    This is really streching it, going by that the Horde is already at total war against the Alliance. Those mages started the whole thing!

    Grom attacked and waged war against the Alliance they had every right to imprison him, end of story.

    Who says they didnt demand? They cleary didnt want them there. Its their lands and the Warsong didnt care,and Thrall did nothing about it because the plot demanded it.
    Khadgar and Turalyon talked like it was extremely unlikely and it was only though as a possibility in farout future in their conversation. As Gaz told them that Draenor was dying so in time it would have just died out. Also a thing that alliance didn't know they didn't attack there because they though that his portals would destroy eastern kingdoms.

    It wasn't a total war, but to safeguard from a hostile force destroy the ones supporting as it protects forsakens.

    He only raided supplies, protected warsongs and planned to free orcs from the camps.

    They didn't say anything about it in wc3 or chronicles 3 when they made the peace, as such it was a white peace without terms, like returning the lands

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Terongor View Post
    Khadgar and Turalyon talked like it was extremely unlikely and it was only though as a possibility in farout future in their conversation. As Gaz told them that Draenor was dying so in time it would have just died out. Also a thing that alliance didn't know they didn't attack there because they though that his portals would destroy eastern kingdoms.

    It wasn't a total war, but to safeguard from a hostile force destroy the ones supporting as it protects forsakens.

    He only raided supplies, protected warsongs and planned to free orcs from the camps.

    They didn't say anything about it in wc3 or chronicles 3 when they made the peace, as such it was a white peace without terms, like returning the lands
    The orcs invaded again from Dreanor, as such the Alliance had every reason to invade Dreneor, their goals doesnt mater, since they had every right to attack anyway.


    So let me get this straight, the Alliance has no right to go after Grom even though he invaded and waged war against the Alliance, but the Forsaken have every right to launch entire campgains in Arathi and Hillsbrad because they supported a couple of mages, in what way they supported you cant explain. Talk about double standards.

    One of the few canon sources about it is that orc speech about taking all of Ashenvale. We can brush it off as nothing but that is still cannon, unlike saying the NE accepted Horde presence.
    Last edited by ausoin; 2019-02-11 at 09:21 AM.

  10. #170
    Riddle me this, who cast the first stone? It's an endless circle of hatred.

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    The orcs invaded again from Dreanor, as such the Alliance had every reason to invade Dreneor, their goals doesnt mater, since they had every right to attack anyway.


    So let me get this straight, the Alliance has no right to go after Grom even though he invaded and waged war against the Alliance, but the Forsaken have every right to launch entire campgains in Arathi and Hillsbrad because they supported a couple of mages, in what way they supported you cant explain. Talk about double standards.

    One of the few canon sources about it is that orc speech about taking all of Ashenvale. We can brush it off as nothing but that is still cannon, unlike saying the NE accepted Horde presence.
    I'm not saying they did or didn't have a right to attack draenor or trying to capture grom, but as interment camps had less humane treament than the forsakens did the humane thing would have being only to aim to kill Grom.

    But grom part is still irelevant to the new horde vs alliance which started more war or instigated major battles.

    Well thats still just a one orc not even the leader of the warsong outriders its same as saying 7th legion is genocidal when some of its memberd says they want to wipe out the entire horde.

    They didn't accept like "yeah its yours" but they didn't demand thrall troops to leave ashenvale alone when they allied in wc3 against Archimonde nor did they during founding of durotar and the source you pointed out said only a night elf army is trying make them leave neither Tyrande nor Thrall is saying about it.

  12. #172
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avellon View Post
    Riddle me this, who cast the first stone? It's an endless circle of hatred.
    The Legion cast the first stone, and the Horde and Alliance have danced to its tune since WC1.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." - The Player, "Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead"

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Terongor View Post
    I'm not saying they did or didn't have a right to attack draenor or trying to capture grom, but as interment camps had less humane treament than the forsakens did the humane thing would have being only to aim to kill Grom.

    But grom part is still irelevant to the new horde vs alliance which started more war or instigated major battles.

    Well thats still just a one orc not even the leader of the warsong outriders its same as saying 7th legion is genocidal when some of its memberd says they want to wipe out the entire horde.

    They didn't accept like "yeah its yours" but they didn't demand thrall troops to leave ashenvale alone when they allied in wc3 against Archimonde nor did they during founding of durotar and the source you pointed out said only a night elf army is trying make them leave neither Tyrande nor Thrall is saying about it.
    Forsaken had more humane treatment? Like force feeding prisoners with the blight?
    You did say that the Alliance had no right to go after Grom since he wasnt an Alliance citizen.

    Grom was captured by the time he was Thrall right hand man.

    He was a captain not a random grunt, and yes its prob just common orc speech and nothing more. But still the fact is its the NE lands, and Thrall should have been well aware that the orc are not welcome since all the skrimishes that were happening, but there had to be a battleground so the story tooked the back seat.
    Last edited by ausoin; 2019-02-11 at 01:50 PM.

  14. #174
    Dreadlord Rozz's Avatar
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    Tbh Idk why we allow the Forsaken to grow in number since Arthas died. They are a suffering people destined for extinction. It is more merciful to let their kind peacefully fade and to never make more of them. There is no morally justifiable reason to bring others into their situation. The only thing they are really good for is acting as meat shields for the living races and Sylvanas. Whatever useful alchemy they learned can simply be adopted by other witty races. Everyone would be happier if the blight was lost to time.

    I don't think it's wrong to feel the Forsaken shouldn't be ruining or claiming resources from the living. They serve an immediate purpose, but Sylvanas' quest to have an immortal army is self serving and reasonably questionable.
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    Let's say, for example, that you're an intellectual. You begin gaming and are now surrounded by crass, anti-intellectual gamers.

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    Forsaken had more humane treatment? Like force feeding prisoners with the blight?
    You did say that the Alliance had no right to go after Grom since he wasnt an Alliance citizen.

    Grom was captured by the time he was Thrall right hand man.

    He was a captain not a random grunt. But still the fact is its the NE lands, and Thrall should have been well aware that the orc are not welcome since all the skrimishes that were happening, but there had to be a battleground so the story tooked the back seat.
    Atleast the forsakens didn't force humans to kill the ones they loved in gladiatorial matches and made it thing anyone can have. Emotional and physical distress from it is much worse than blight experiments because some of them actually lived and had to remember what they did. Forcing feeding prisoners blight is easily comperable to kirin tors experiments on orcs. Plus all other "nice treament" blackmoore did to thrall and other prisoners.

    I said they had no right imprison him, killing is a totally different thing.

    Yeah he was captured by then but you can only blame him on the commands of the horde of draenor. Also on the intermenr camp front thrall offered to spare all the humans if they let the orcs go. Compared on alliance aggreaion orcs atleast show they can negotiate.

    Captain is so low of a rank he doean't have say in overall strategy so his oppiniona matter as much as grunts.
    NE didn't problems with while they were allied why would they have if they weren't at war.

  16. #176
    Pandaren Monk Benomatic's Avatar
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    Only for the purge of the undead.

  17. #177
    The Unstoppable Force Arrashi's Avatar
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    I don't but baine sure as hell does.

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Terongor View Post
    Atleast the forsakens didn't force humans to kill the ones they loved in gladiatorial matches and made it thing anyone can have. Emotional and physical distress from it is much worse than blight experiments because some of them actually lived and had to remember what they did. Forcing feeding prisoners blight is easily comperable to kirin tors experiments on orcs. Plus all other "nice treament" blackmoore did to thrall and other prisoners.

    I said they had no right imprison him, killing is a totally different thing.

    Yeah he was captured by then but you can only blame him on the commands of the horde of draenor. Also on the intermenr camp front thrall offered to spare all the humans if they let the orcs go. Compared on alliance aggreaion orcs atleast show they can negotiate.

    Captain is so low of a rank he doean't have say in overall strategy so his oppiniona matter as much as grunts.
    NE didn't problems with while they were allied why would they have if they weren't at war.
    Both were cruel but to argue that the Forsken were MUCH more humane is just ignoring everything we know about the Forsken, is not just the blight but turning prisoners in ghouls and in the case of Brennadam, turning People to fish So they can die due to lack of air and laughing all the way, that is the very def of inhumane.

    Why, why they had no right to imprison him, you know the Horde takes Alliance prisoners as well? Every factions does it.

    He attacked the camps alongside Thrall.
    Giving the soldiers a chance to surrender means nothing when talking in this context, Thrall attacked first.

    They didnt have a problem? Thats just your headcanon,by attaking the Horde in vanilla its clear what they wanted.
    Last edited by ausoin; 2019-02-11 at 05:45 PM.

  19. #179
    Only Forsaken and Goblins.

    Forsaken are already dead, and Goblins, well, its feels just like when killing Gnomes ... and cockroaches *evil grin*

  20. #180
    As long as it's not another douchebag ret pala jerkoff which is supposed to be for the greater good or some nonsense like that, implying that the upstanding Alliance is doing the world a favor. Evidently that won't happen cause the moment the Alliance does something mildly.. not good a wave of nelf and human ret tears hit the forums and they have to whitewash it later.

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