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  1. #1

    Warriors never bad but never good

    As I've sat here for half an hour being declined by every m+ group even though I have more than enough experience, I find myself thinking about warriors. I've only played one since cata but in my personal view, and it might be very wrong, that warrs are never great. If memory serves me well, they're usually not bad, but have they ever been a class you actually want to see? We bring nothing of real value that other classes bring.

    While I'm ranting about warrs, it also seems like other classes, those that always seem to be good, locks and rogues etc, are always allowed to stay at the top, and whenever warriors look like they might be worth considering, Blizzard descends on them because no fun is allowed.

  2. #2
    Vanilla and TBC at the least warriors were THE tank, and fury dps was among the best.

  3. #3
    I know the feeling. Only m+10 and above I can get into is when my brother calls me in his key (he is tank). I can spend two hours queueing with resulting only a headache and frustration.

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  4. #4
    Dominant tank from classic through BC, wasn't really left behind until WoD since they don't know how to handle absorbs vs blocks vs self healing.

    Dominant PvP DPS in Arms through LK and strong for PvE through MoP (I don't really play arms so can't entirely say.)

    Fury among the dominant melee DPS to Legion, constantly buggered by scaling issues that make it extremely good towards the end of an expansion.

    I mean I get where you are going with this, but you're factually incorrect. Warriors as both tanks and DPS have remained competitive in each expansion and I'd say there's a very good chance that by the end of expansion Fury warriors at the very least will be pulling quite ahead in DPS as they approach a mix of 30% crit, 30% haste, 50% mastery.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    Dominant tank from classic through BC, wasn't really left behind until WoD since they don't know how to handle absorbs vs blocks vs self healing.

    Dominant PvP DPS in Arms through LK and strong for PvE through MoP (I don't really play arms so can't entirely say.)

    Fury among the dominant melee DPS to Legion, constantly buggered by scaling issues that make it extremely good towards the end of an expansion.

    I mean I get where you are going with this, but you're factually incorrect. Warriors as both tanks and DPS have remained competitive in each expansion and I'd say there's a very good chance that by the end of expansion Fury warriors at the very least will be pulling quite ahead in DPS as they approach a mix of 30% crit, 30% haste, 50% mastery.
    I agree in raids warriors are often good, and I guess that's where the positive side of my thoughts lie. The negative is in m+ where they lack the utility. Even in legion, when we had shockwave, we weren't really sought after. I find we do competitive dps most of the time, but because of the meta no one will take you over a rogue, for example. I don't really blame people, either. If you can have the dps AND some extra utility stuff then take it. We bring a buff that can be bought on the AH.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    Dominant tank from classic through BC, wasn't really left behind until WoD since they don't know how to handle absorbs vs blocks vs self healing.

    Dominant PvP DPS in Arms through LK and strong for PvE through MoP (I don't really play arms so can't entirely say.)

    Fury among the dominant melee DPS to Legion, constantly buggered by scaling issues that make it extremely good towards the end of an expansion.

    I mean I get where you are going with this, but you're factually incorrect. Warriors as both tanks and DPS have remained competitive in each expansion and I'd say there's a very good chance that by the end of expansion Fury warriors at the very least will be pulling quite ahead in DPS as they approach a mix of 30% crit, 30% haste, 50% mastery.
    Except the fact that Blizzard just keeps on nerfing us everytime we seem to pull ahead in anything.
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Noxina View Post
    Except the fact that Blizzard just keeps on nerfing us everytime we seem to pull ahead in anything.
    I really do wonder if it's just a case of paying attention to the class you play over everything else, but it does always seem like blizz is quicker to put us back in line if we look like we're going to be top of the charts. But then again, I have very few alts. Maybe other classes are nerfed as much. I just know that right now I have the impression that locks and rogues, for example, are universally good...all the time.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Noxina View Post
    Except the fact that Blizzard just keeps on nerfing us everytime we seem to pull ahead in anything.
    Blizz balance =/= your personal desires or expectations.

    Hell, many times it doesn't even equal their own, although we haven't had a serious tuning problem since WotLK - but that was from the introduction of heroic mode and the item level inflation the extra loot caused.

    And as it stands Arms warriors have been buffed twice so far this expansion with the only real nerfs to Fury being the loss of shockwave.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Season2mask View Post
    I really do wonder if it's just a case of paying attention to the class you play over everything else, but it does always seem like blizz is quicker to put us back in line if we look like we're going to be top of the charts. But then again, I have very few alts. Maybe other classes are nerfed as much. I just know that right now I have the impression that locks and rogues, for example, are universally good...all the time.
    Visit the other forums.

    The best ones for people complaining about how Blizzard hates their class are Paladins and Shaman.

  9. #9
    Sorry OP. You missed warriors golden years in vanilla thru Cata. Best tank, Gods in DPS, and gods in PVP. Our scaling was just insane. I miss the days of rage not being normalized along with heroic strike. WotLK was the last time I felt like a juggernaut on my warrior.

    Anyways I’m just messing with ya since you didn’t get to experience the class pre Cata. It was great times though. As for being good or not now I can’t say as I’m no longer subbed but generally speaking when the end of the expansion is here that’s when you’ll see warriors start shining more.

  10. #10
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    Warrior need shockwave back and many problems would be solved regarding M+

  11. #11
    Warchief msdos's Avatar
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    If the title was "Arms warrior never bad, but never good" then you'd have a legit thread.

    In vanilla, warriors used to have this talent called sword spec, well they could specialize in any type of 2h, but sword spec was the one that procced an extra swing. So they would roll with a pocket resto shammy (I was one of the shammies) and the shammy would just follow them around dropping windfury. Windfury would stack with sword spec then they'd get the Hand of Justice trinket out of BRD which procced ANOTHER swing and you can imagine what ensued.

    They gutted windfury and sword spec. Then they introduced Stormherald. Stormherald would proc like a 3 second stun but they didn't gut mace specialization, which stacked with the stun. So all through TBC warriors dominated again. Then they introduced Bladestorm and beastcleave came.

    Today's warrior is a result of warriors being tuned out of control in the early days, like people have posted.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Season2mask View Post
    those that always seem to be good, locks
    Locks have been utter trash in a good portion of raid tiers, and rarely were topping meters. They are definitely not "one of the classes that are not allowed to not be good".

    Warriors have been absolute gods of melee at least from Vanilla through Cata. Usually not in the first or the second tier of the xpac, but their scaling was just way better than that of other classes. They have been completely dominating both PvE and PvP in the last (and possibly previous last) tiers for 10 years straight. I don't know about their current standings (they have barely been middle of the pack in WoD, when I last played the game), but they are by no means a "never good" class.
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  13. #13
    If my memory serve me well warrior was:

    OP in vanilla
    good in TBC
    OP in WotLk
    good in cata
    OP at begening and at end of MOP
    realy good at end of WoD
    super strong in legion
    and now warr is simple ok , not bad not op

  14. #14
    Prot is awesome in M+ this season... I invite fury warriors as i like them and ill always go for a prot warr if one queues. So tanky and amazing dps, makes the dungeon go quicker (our prot warr solid last boss in underrot on a +16 key with victory rush spamming)

    I get declined for grps on my havoc dh just as much as my warr, dh is 389 with several +10s and 3 +12s under his belt and people decline me for +5s haha.. It's sadly just how pugs are...

  15. #15
    Warchief ImpTaimer's Avatar
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    Warriors scale as well as their gear allows them to because of the way Rage worked.

    In vanilla through BC its not an argument to claim Prot Warrior being good because Blizzard intentionally designed raiding to have at least one of each class. Since Warriors could tank and had no reliable healing utility, encounters were designed to cater towards them being a tank. Not always main tank, but tank none the less. With perfect gear a warrior could even achieve amazing DPS (again, due to the way Rage worked).

    WotLK DKs were Blizzard's child pet. Encounters were no longer designed for a Warrior always be a tank. It wasn't until armor penetration became more available did Warriors shoot back up to towards the top.

    Cata and onward Warriors only survived the shit show of B-team designers due to the way Rage worked. WoD being the expansion that started the slow neutering of how Rage worked along with many arbitrary forced spec "fantasies".

    In BFA Rage mechanic has been completely neutered and arbitrated so the class has no meaningful scaling outside whatever the devs force you to. Couple that with purposefully terrible gear itemization and there's no hope for Warriors to excel at anything because Blizzard will simply just nerf whatever is making Warriors too good.
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by ImpTaimer View Post
    Warriors scale as well as their gear allows them to because of the way Rage worked.

    In vanilla through BC its not an argument to claim Prot Warrior being good because Blizzard intentionally designed raiding to have at least one of each class. Since Warriors could tank and had no reliable healing utility, encounters were designed to cater towards them being a tank. Not always main tank, but tank none the less. With perfect gear a warrior could even achieve amazing DPS (again, due to the way Rage worked).

    WotLK DKs were Blizzard's child pet. Encounters were no longer designed for a Warrior always be a tank. It wasn't until armor penetration became more available did Warriors shoot back up to towards the top.

    Cata and onward Warriors only survived the shit show of B-team designers due to the way Rage worked. WoD being the expansion that started the slow neutering of how Rage worked along with many arbitrary forced spec "fantasies".

    In BFA Rage mechanic has been completely neutered and arbitrated so the class has no meaningful scaling outside whatever the devs force you to. Couple that with purposefully terrible gear itemization and there's no hope for Warriors to excel at anything because Blizzard will simply just nerf whatever is making Warriors too good.
    Rage has been normalized since MoP.

    Not the best argument for why you think warriors aren't very good at the moment.

  17. #17
    In all honesty warriors are pretty damn bad atm. Anything that counted before Legion was pvp and raids, now we've got M+ as well which is pretty damn important.

    Warriors are never allowed to be overpowered even in the slightest. Especially not to the extents of Arcane mages at the end of WoD for example.

    So when was the last time anyone has see more than 2 warriors in a M raid comp? It's pretty damn rare to see 1 warr and on the top level 1 is the maximum. It's a walking buff, nothing else. There are much better alternatives. Raid-wise fury is at the level of importance of a DH. 1 per raid and anything more is a waste of a spot.

    In M+ the story is much different. DPS warriors are useless. There's literally no reason to bring warr over DH/rogue/RDPS. NONE. And queing takes ages compared to classes like boomkins/mages/shamans/DHs/rogues.

    And in pvp warriors are mediocre at best and pretty much the amount of comps availabe for them in 3v3 is 1.

  18. #18
    I stopped playing at the end of WoD, so I don't know how warriors have felt since, but the absolute best and most fun warriors have ever been was during and especially towards the end of WotLK.

    Prot PvP was absolute hilarity (it was also sort of awesome briefly early Mop before they nerfed the shit out of it because all the Mage QQ).

    Charging around and Shield Slamming clothies for 50% of their HP in crit gear was hilarious.

    Running HCs in full ICC crit gear as Prot was more fun than it can be described. Nothing could seriously harm you, you didn't need any healing but it felt like playing Barbarian in a hack and slash.

    Heroic strike/Cleave spam would give you carpal tunnel but it felt like you were a total monster.
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  19. #19
    Don't know, from my standpoint Warriors tend to end on a stronger side of things, especially closer to end of expansion with scaling.

    If I'd bring a genuine never bad never good class, it would probably be hunters. These guys are the mediocrity incarnate in my view.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Don't know, from my standpoint Warriors tend to end on a stronger side of things, especially closer to end of expansion with scaling.

    If I'd bring a genuine never bad never good class, it would probably be hunters. These guys are the mediocrity incarnate in my view.
    DPS Shamans are the height of mediocrity if you ask me. They have brief periods where they shine such as ToT but in general they just aren't great and without Resto the class would hardly have any representation at all in either PvP or PvE. Spriests are weird, they are either OP as fuck (early Legion, BoD) or you just don't see them at all. Hunters are usually present thanks to their great mobility and utility but yeah, DPS wise they struggle mightily at the moment.

    By contrast, using my personal experience, Warriors were the only tanks and a great DPS in vanilla once geared, in TBC Fury was great and Prot was still one of the only tanks, in Wrath we struggled at the beginning of the expansion then shot up due to scaling, didn't play Cata, in Mists Arms was a terror and Prot fared very well, in WoD Glad stance was strong then Arms took over as being a cleave monster, in Legion Fury and Arms took turns being OP with Fury dominating Nighthold and Antorus while Arms crushed in ToS. BfA is probably the most mediocre we've been in a while and yet still we have a presence in top tier content.

    People crying about Warriors having it bad don't know shit if you ask me. But then again every class forums acts as if the devs all came and shat on their carpet just because they play a certain class in a game.

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