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  1. #341
    Quote Originally Posted by bullseyed View Post
    This guy is going places.

    I'm curious as to what job he has to do for the tanks though. MD? That's the only thing that makes sense with how little utility hunters have.
    He had to escort them when they were targeted by Avalanche. Yes every spec could do it but BM is the only spec that doesnt lose dps while doing it.

  2. #342
    Quote Originally Posted by Deaged View Post
    1) BM was the go to spec from the start of the expansion until now and most hunters started the tier with gear orientated for BM
    2) Parses are almost 50/50 now at the mythic level
    3) MM out performs BM by just under 10% at the 75th percentile over all of BoD mythic
    4) you have the IQ of a potato if you can't figure out why people haven't immediately switched over to MM
    Why dont we see this tendency with other classes then? For mage, rogue and warlock people always switch away from the bottom dps specs immediately. BM is the only spec in the game which is still largely played while being bottom dps.
    Last edited by Kaver; 2019-03-01 at 10:03 AM.

  3. #343
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Why dont we see this tendency with other classes then? For mage, rogue and warlock people always switch away from the bottom dps specs immediately. BM is the only spec in the game which is still largely played while being bottom dps.
    Imo, its for the class fantasy, BM hunter are the only physical ranged class (with an Bow or Gun) that has a companion live animal that you can bond with, not to mention spiritual beast that only BM hunter can have.
    Mages, lock and rogues, whichever spec you pick, is almost the same class fantasy, maybe just outlaw is a something different, but the other 2, rogues are suppose to be silent killers (ninja if you prefer), mages are just mages, and warlocks are dark magicians or whatever, there is no much unique spec fantasy.

  4. #344
    Quote Originally Posted by Lodvampire View Post
    Imo, its for the class fantasy, BM hunter are the only physical ranged class (with an Bow or Gun) that has a companion live animal that you can bond with, not to mention spiritual beast that only BM hunter can have.
    Mages, lock and rogues, whichever spec you pick, is almost the same class fantasy, maybe just outlaw is a something different, but the other 2, rogues are suppose to be silent killers (ninja if you prefer), mages are just mages, and warlocks are dark magicians or whatever, there is no much unique spec fantasy.
    I respect that opinion and I cannot say if it is wrong or right. But I think that your points about uniqueness would also apply to Demonology Warlock. And that spec is not played when it is bottom dps.

    Personally I believe the large attraction towards BM is due to advantages which exceed mere damage performance. I think it is okay that BM doesnt perform very well damagewise because it offers so many other benefits. The overall package of the BM hunter spec is really great even without having high damage.
    Last edited by Kaver; 2019-03-01 at 12:25 PM.

  5. #345
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    I respect that opinion and I cannot say if it is wrong or right. But I think that your points about uniqueness would also apply to Demonology Warlock. And that spec is not played when it is bottom dps.

    Personally I believe the large attraction towards BM is due to advantages which exceed mere damage performance. I think it is okay that BM doesnt perform very well damagewise because it offers so many other benefits. The overall package of the BM hunter spec is really great even without having high damage.
    BM and Affli/Demo warlocks compete for the same niche. They are ranged, pet classes that offer excellent solo capabilities even in basic gear. Destruction also fits to a certain extent, but most people I know tend to solo stuff using the other 2 specs. My point is, people who play hunter for solo capabilities are basically stuck with the spec. They do not have anything to fall back to. That is why BM never really drops in terms of player numbers. Warlocks on the other hand have a luxury of choice, the only limiting factor being if you can stand each particular play style. I, for example, had an allergic reaction to Legion's Demo, but was really into Affliction. If Affliction was to drop too much, I would look into Destruction. Warlocks were about playstyle choices, but with similar personal / solo capabilities. Hunters are different in that regard. You either go for BM's solo performance, or switch for raid friendly MM spec. Survival does not fit the classic playstyle anymore, so that is out (not to mention that SV lacks in the survival department compared to BM). Thus, hardly anyone shifts from BM, despite abysmally low performance as of late, while warlocks still show relatively fluid player transitions from one spec to the other.
    IMHO of course.

  6. #346
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaaz View Post
    BM and Affli/Demo warlocks compete for the same niche. They are ranged, pet classes that offer excellent solo capabilities even in basic gear. Destruction also fits to a certain extent, but most people I know tend to solo stuff using the other 2 specs. My point is, people who play hunter for solo capabilities are basically stuck with the spec. They do not have anything to fall back to. That is why BM never really drops in terms of player numbers. Warlocks on the other hand have a luxury of choice, the only limiting factor being if you can stand each particular play style. I, for example, had an allergic reaction to Legion's Demo, but was really into Affliction. If Affliction was to drop too much, I would look into Destruction. Warlocks were about playstyle choices, but with similar personal / solo capabilities. Hunters are different in that regard. You either go for BM's solo performance, or switch for raid friendly MM spec. Survival does not fit the classic playstyle anymore, so that is out (not to mention that SV lacks in the survival department compared to BM). Thus, hardly anyone shifts from BM, despite abysmally low performance as of late, while warlocks still show relatively fluid player transitions from one spec to the other.
    IMHO of course.
    Solo capabilities usually dont impact peoples choice for what spec they play in raids.

    People normally choose raid specs based on performance. And while BM currently do poorly in terms of “log dps” it offers a lot of “freedom performance” which MM and other specs dont offer in the same degree.

  7. #347
    Quote Originally Posted by TOM_RUS View Post
    Since BM can't cleave or multi dot anything on BOD, it should at least be top on single target fights. But that's not the case and needs to be fixed. Reported it as a bug in game. Everyone should do the same.
    Gotta love stuff like this. Warcraft logs removes multidot damage and other padding automatically.

    Just try DPSing the wrong boss on Conclave the next raid and see what your warcraft logs parse looks like.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by FpicEail View Post
    IIRC in WotLK it was more than just scaling. Readiness was moved from being the Survival 41-pointer the Marksmanship 21-pointer (why did they ever do this?), so as BM you could go 50/21 and be pretty broken with Readiness + Bestial Wrath (the BM 51-pointer was Exotic Pets + extra Pet talent points so it wasn't as valuable). Plus, by that point BM was not only the effectively-mandatory Hunter raiding spec but it had been for all of BC as well. So it made sense for BM to be nerfed, although in 3.0.8 they did their usual mistake on piling multiple nerfs at once which turned the spec from must-play to must-avoid.

    Did they really ban people, and if so was it purely because of the feedback?
    I mean we got the point where we weren't being super civil with GC on the warcraft boards. But saying "don't be stupid" when someone is refusing to adhere to proveable models isn't that unreasonable. Powertripping people like GC also don't like it when you quote their own posts, proving them wrong, it turns out.

    But yes, I'm well aware of the state of BM in TBC. Sometimes I regret that thread where we developed that steadyshot macro. Someone else probably would have eventually. But it really controlled the class for quite some time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    But it was one of the highest DPS specs at the start of the expansion. Why is it so hard for you to accept that this isn't deliberate? If Blizzard was punishing BM with low DPS because it's "easy", why did it let BM be one of the highest DPS in Uldir?

    The logical answer is: It's not deliberate, it's just that Blizzard still hasn't worked out how to fix BM's scaling. BM *always* starts off strong, then gets worse and worse the higher item level gets throughout an expansion. It's a numbers problem, it's not deliberate tuning. It just never gets fixed because the number of people playing BM remains strong no matter how poorly it does numbers-wise.

    BM is a unique spec in the game since it's only spec that does the majority of its damage through its pet. It has very high baseline damage but scales poorly, because pets scale poorly.
    Obviously that troll is wrong and people really shouldn't be responding.

    But with Ion's history over at EJs and whatnot, he knows about the scaling problems hunters have always had. There is no chance it is accidental or the result of bad balancing.

    There are some "imbalance" things that Blizzard does on purpose. From time to time they come close to admitting it. But it is like season in Diablo 3. Each season they nerf and buff different sets for each class. They do this to keep it "fresh" so you have to switch to a different spec, so you don't burn out.

    WoW is different, but the same concept applies and is used. Periodically they nerf or buff classes "just 'cause" so you "have to" switch. They do this "for your own good" so you don't get bored and quit. Making you mad is actually better than making you bored in that respect.

    Hunters are just one of the more immune classes to that. People generally pick one of the specs and play that no matter what, if they aren't involved in higher-end raiding. That's often because hunters are a highly played alt class, and people don't have time to learn multiple specs.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    And it was still near the top after that. It only started slipping once people were in 375+ gear. If they really meant for BM on the bottom they would have nerfed it by a lot more than 5%. The 5% nerf only took it from top spot to around 4th.
    The BM nerfs were really because of how OP a few BM PVP traits were in arena and world PVP.

    The PVE tuning was minor.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Deaged View Post
    1) BM was the go to spec from the start of the expansion until now and most hunters started the tier with gear orientated for BM
    2) Parses are almost 50/50 now at the mythic level
    3) MM out performs BM by just under 10% at the 75th percentile over all of BoD mythic
    4) you have the IQ of a potato if you can't figure out why people haven't immediately switched over to MM
    If you filter out the PUG mythic boss(es), you'll see MM is far ahead of BM already.

    A lot of the "I like having a pet that is big and red" people only do a boss or two of mythic. And it makes sense with how bad BM has been.

    I wonder how many will switch back after the buff if they end up neck and neck.
    Snarky: Adjective - Any language that contains quips or comments containing sarcastic or satirical witticisms intended as blunt irony. Usually delivered in a manner that is somewhat abrupt and out of context and intended to stun and amuse.

  8. #348
    Quote Originally Posted by bullseyed View Post
    Gotta love stuff like this. Warcraft logs removes multidot damage and other padding automatically.
    No, it doesn't. It only removes it on fights where it is actually padding, like Conclave (where multidot damage is irrelevant because the bosses reset to full health). Take a look at the non-padding fights and you'll see all the multidot classes right up the top.

  9. #349
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Solo capabilities usually dont impact peoples choice for what spec they play in raids.

    People normally choose raid specs based on performance. And while BM currently do poorly in terms of “log dps” it offers a lot of “freedom performance” which MM and other specs dont offer in the same degree.
    You are very wrong about that. Solo capabilities do not impact a choice only at a relatively top level. When it comes to non top 100 level play, vast majority of people tend to stay in one spec throughout whole expansion, or at least an expansion tier. To gear a character in several specs requires much more dedication and time than most people can afford to spend. When a class has a single solo (or 5 man) spec, chances are you are going to pick some extremely good gear outside of a raid. That really impacts a choice of what spec you use in a raid as well. A properly equipped, crit based BM will likely outperform MM in the same gear, which is sub optimal for MM. Most casual players will follow the path of least resistance. And casual audience is the base 90% for this game. Not trying to offend anyone, I too am quite casual as of late. I simply do not have time to properly equip multiple specs and rather concentrate on one.
    Locks are in a very sweet spot in terms of solo play. All of their specs have very similar solo capabilities. Therefore spec switches are much more often and occur without major issues. Not true for hunters. Not only you sacrifice solo ability, you sacrifice your signature pet or turn melee when you opt for other specs.

  10. #350
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaaz View Post
    You are very wrong about that. Solo capabilities do not impact a choice only at a relatively top level. When it comes to non top 100 level play, vast majority of people tend to stay in one spec throughout whole expansion, or at least an expansion tier. To gear a character in several specs requires much more dedication and time than most people can afford to spend. When a class has a single solo (or 5 man) spec, chances are you are going to pick some extremely good gear outside of a raid. That really impacts a choice of what spec you use in a raid as well. A properly equipped, crit based BM will likely outperform MM in the same gear, which is sub optimal for MM. Most casual players will follow the path of least resistance. And casual audience is the base 90% for this game. Not trying to offend anyone, I too am quite casual as of late. I simply do not have time to properly equip multiple specs and rather concentrate on one.
    Locks are in a very sweet spot in terms of solo play. All of their specs have very similar solo capabilities. Therefore spec switches are much more often and occur without major issues. Not true for hunters. Not only you sacrifice solo ability, you sacrifice your signature pet or turn melee when you opt for other specs.
    "vast majority of people tend to stay in one spec throughout whole expansion" No that is definitely not true. The majority plays the spec which performs the best. BM is the only spec in the game which is played will being bottom dps.

    What you're saying about gearing is just not true mate. It doesn't require much extra effort to switch to MM. Most of the Azerite gear we get are random so you are just as likely to have good MM traits as BM traits with the exception of bonus rolls in raids. And the gear you get from the weekly chest is also not oriented towards BM. You are just as likely to get something good for MM.

    Also, we don't see this tendency with any other class in the game. So it is just not true that this is the reason why people stick with BM. We play BM because of the freedom and convenient gameplay. Let's be real.

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/21 - BM has 35.8 k parses on mythic as the bottom spec. This has never been seen before with any other spec. Especially not for a class which has 3 dps options.

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...1#difficulty=4 - And for a more "casual" viewpoint we can also look at heroic logs where BM has 190 k parses as the bottom spec.

    Gearing is not the problem. If it was we would see this tendency with other classes also. But we don't.
    Last edited by Kaver; 2019-03-08 at 11:37 PM.

  11. #351
    BM has the unique property of not losing damage while moving. It's very jarring to switch away from that. Sometimes even tip-top hunters chose BM because of that, esp. on progress, even if it's slightly lower damage.

  12. #352
    BM pets should have talent trees again. That would be fun at least

  13. #353
    Can't play another caster class after playing BM and having free mobility. Don't really care how dumpster it currently is. In the end all that really matter is the group you're playing with. Majority of players stay in Normal/Heroic raids so if you are doing 20k dps as BM and other people are doing 24k dps who really cares. That's plenty of damage to kill bosses.
    Last edited by xpose; 2019-03-12 at 11:40 AM.

  14. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by xpose View Post
    Can't play another caster class after playing BM and having free mobility.
    Yeah, everything else I play is melee besides BM and Marks (DH, DK, Paladin).
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