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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Segus1992 View Post
    Again, if any spec deserves to be on the bottom (I'm not sure you understand, but some spec has to be) it's the easiest spec: BM. It's the introductory spec that children can play to learn the game. It won't stay this way, but it deserves its spot.
    Except there are plenty of classes that are easier now when it comes to min/max playstyle and getting the most out of the spec. Not saying BM isn’t easy, but there are others that are just as if not easier than.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    Except there are plenty of classes that are easier now when it comes to min/max playstyle and getting the most out of the spec. Not saying BM isn’t easy, but there are others that are just as if not easier than.
    I'd like to hear examples and/or arguments. I see this said a lot and nobody ever backs it up.

  3. #83
    The Patient
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    I raid with a BM hunter and find I'm often in the top 3-4 in damage done, if not DPS. The ease of being able to continue your rotation while moving around is amazing. While other classes are having to stop their rotation I'm happily continuing on.

    Definitely not garbage. Hell, isn't Gingi of Method BM?
    “the mind that has convinced itself of its own superiority is incapable of humility, and in the absence of humility, it is incapable of growth.”
    ― Steven Erikson, Fall of Light

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Segus1992 View Post
    Again, if any spec deserves to be on the bottom (I'm not sure you understand, but some spec has to be) it's the easiest spec: BM. It's the introductory spec that children can play to learn the game. It won't stay this way, but it deserves its spot.
    I am pretty sure you dont understand. Bottom is fine if the tradeoff is easy and mobile, people are not really complaining about that. Being behind by 30% or more is not fine. From next week pretty much all hunters who do progression and are serious about dps will have rerolled to mm

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Segus1992 View Post
    I'd like to hear examples and/or arguments. I see this said a lot and nobody ever backs it up.
    WW monks pla almost a set rotation. Rogues play almost set rotation. DHs prioritize highest damaging ability off CD. Warriors prioritize abilities as they come off CD. Paladins prioritize abilities in damage order. Mages cast until a proc.
    That is all ST. Multi target most specs replace 1 ability for another with cleave being very little change.
    For BM:
    Manage a buff that affects your pet. Idea is to maintain 3 stacks at all times (not possible for 100%), while also prioritizing as some abilities come off CD around the same time. If it falls off you need to wait before using it again.
    Cleave you have to weave a Multi-Shot roughly every 3rd ability to keep Beast Cleave up, and AoE is roughly the same until 5 targets and then MS overtakes some other abilities, while still maintaining as close to 3 stacks as possible.
    Now, this is all relatively easy (as stated I’m not saying BM is hard) but min/max potential has a little more to it than just “easiest spec ever” and “brain dead” spec. Other specs are truly easier than BM now from a min/max standpoint.
    As I also stated at another time, I don’t agree with 100% mobility meaning flat damage nerf to compensate. So little does having that 100% uptime actually make a difference or even become perceived as needed that it makes any sense, as well as classes that do not have 100% mobility doing much more damage. BM doesn’t and shouldn’t be god tier in my opinion, but this much of a gap is a little excessive.
    Last edited by Eapoe; 2019-02-13 at 08:30 PM.

  6. #86
    Dreadlord Pigglix's Avatar
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    I think people who say BM is the easiest spect, havent tried arcane or frost mage...like..really? Bm easiest spec? Alright then, thanks for the laugh.

  7. #87
    Gears that doesn't scale bm really well is pretty stupid coming from blizzard's logic, But okay whatever.

  8. #88
    BM is so bad... I finally respecced into MM before the raid, tried it 15-20min at the dummy... and alrdy did comparable dps at the start of the raid and in the end even better than as BM... after still having no clue how to really play the spec to its max potential. That's just stupid. And MM is not even a top spec right now.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Segus1992 View Post
    I'd like to hear examples and/or arguments. I see this said a lot and nobody ever backs it up.
    Havoc dh is arguable the easiest spec in the game. "Is you button lit up? Press it. If its not, demons bite until it is."

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by VladimirM View Post
    This. Showing picture of statistics page and complaining about a spec is so funny considering Warcraftlogs are here for quite some time and people still didn't learn how to use it.
    You mean like when Blizzard nerfed BM hardcore because it was topping Warcraftlogs only on the first 3 bosses of Uldir in the first 2 weeks? Knowing BM doesn't scale nearly as well as basically any class/spec? That Marksman feels even worse than it's Legion counterpart to play, and Survival is just another melee spec that shouldn't be?

    And yes, despite people going 'it's only a couple %, it doesn't matter' it does matter. Hence why there's been plenty of cases of Ferals having been turned away since the start of BFA along with Spriests. Starting a raid tier or a m+ season with any spec underperforming or being 'last' puts a stigma on them that X or Y would be better so a good player would be playing those instead and only a trash player would play the worst performing spec.

    But there are enough people that prefer playing BM, that even if you doubled the amount of parses for Survival and Marksman it still wouldn't equal up because it feels better to play than the other 2 specs.
    Last edited by Ahlae; 2019-02-14 at 01:05 AM.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by paror View Post
    I am pretty sure you dont understand. Bottom is fine if the tradeoff is easy and mobile, people are not really complaining about that. Being behind by 30% or more is not fine. From next week pretty much all hunters who do progression and are serious about dps will have rerolled to mm
    30% behind? What world do you live in?
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    WW monks pla almost a set rotation. Rogues play almost set rotation. DHs prioritize highest damaging ability off CD. Warriors prioritize abilities as they come off CD. Paladins prioritize abilities in damage order. Mages cast until a proc.
    That is all ST. Multi target most specs replace 1 ability for another with cleave being very little change.
    For BM:
    Manage a buff that affects your pet. Idea is to maintain 3 stacks at all times (not possible for 100%), while also prioritizing as some abilities come off CD around the same time. If it falls off you need to wait before using it again.
    Cleave you have to weave a Multi-Shot roughly every 3rd ability to keep Beast Cleave up, and AoE is roughly the same until 5 targets and then MS overtakes some other abilities, while still maintaining as close to 3 stacks as possible.
    Now, this is all relatively easy (as stated I’m not saying BM is hard) but min/max potential has a little more to it than just “easiest spec ever” and “brain dead” spec. Other specs are truly easier than BM now from a min/max standpoint.
    As I also stated at another time, I don’t agree with 100% mobility meaning flat damage nerf to compensate. So little does having that 100% uptime actually make a difference or even become perceived as needed that it makes any sense, as well as classes that do not have 100% mobility doing much more damage. BM doesn’t and shouldn’t be god tier in my opinion, but this much of a gap is a little excessive.
    No melee is ever going to be easier than BM simply because of the movement requirements. Havoc, while simple, requires quick thinking. Any other spec you mentioned is just ridiculous. "prioritizes abilities as they come off CD" is exactly what BM does, except AoE where you space it out with MS. Simply because you're a ranged with full mobility, BM automatically becomes easier than any of the mentioned specs even if the rotations in a vacuum are similarly easy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pigglix View Post
    I think people who say BM is the easiest spect, havent tried arcane or frost mage...like..really? Bm easiest spec? Alright then, thanks for the laugh.
    Yes, BM is most certainly easier. Not even close. Have YOU tried those specs? They're not hard, but they're nowhere near BM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mardux View Post
    Havoc dh is arguable the easiest spec in the game. "Is you button lit up? Press it. If its not, demons bite until it is."
    Havoc is simple, as mentioned above, but requires quick thinking and movement. BM is similarly simple without these requirements.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Segus1992 View Post
    30% behind? What world do you live in?
    No melee is ever going to be easier than BM simply because of the movement requirements. Havoc, while simple, requires quick thinking. Any other spec you mentioned is just ridiculous. "prioritizes abilities as they come off CD" is exactly what BM does, except AoE where you space it out with MS. Simply because you're a ranged with full mobility, BM automatically becomes easier than any of the mentioned specs even if the rotations in a vacuum are similarly easy.

    Yes, BM is most certainly easier. Not even close. Have YOU tried those specs? They're not hard, but they're nowhere near BM.


    Havoc is simple, as mentioned above, but requires quick thinking and movement. BM is similarly simple without these requirements.
    The actual world. Should try it.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by TOM_RUS View Post
    Except it's not easiest spec. You have to maintain stacks and shit in order to do DPS. BFA BM probably hardest incarnation of BM ever been. It doesn't deserve to be lowest. Pure DPS should never be lowest. Hybrid classes should be lowest if anything.

    Back in MoP and WoD SV was fully mobile and was top/middle on many encounters and in dungeons. BM was fully mobile in MoP and did great DPS. MM was fully mobile in WoD and did great DPS.

    Why didn't we pay "mobile tax" back then and it suddenly so needed now?
    It is by FAR the easiest spec.

    - you have one buff to manage. Other classes have multiple.
    - you dont really have a resource. Focus just mean you cant spam cobra shot but that doesnt make the spec difficult.
    - your main dps CD is very short so you can use it without planning.
    - you can stand wherever you want and move at all time. There is no excuse for BM hunters to stand in shit.
    - your pet does a lot of auto damage.
    - if you mess up your rotation you still do good dps. It doesnt really punish you if you use your abilities in a non-optimal order.

    BFA BM might be more difficult than Legion BM but it is still by far the easiest spec in the game.

    To be real, the main goal of the BM spec is to make it possible for small kids to play the game.
    Last edited by Kaver; 2019-02-14 at 12:31 PM.

  14. #94
    I play BM. I have my complaints about the mechanics of the spec and how the abilities flow, about how the GC changes really messed it up, about how abilities that should be baseline are talents, and various other gripes. I'm pretty sure BM isn't the only spec from all classes that have similar complaints. But the amount of damage I put out isn't a bar to my ability to participate in an active raiding guild, nor is it so low that my contribution is of no consequence. I'd like to see some buffs and changes, but chances are, they ain't coming until 9.0.

    I will say, however, that of two players of the same skill level/gear level, one playing BM, and the other playing any of the other ranged classes, the other ranged class will come out on top nine times out of ten in almost every raid encounter in the current expansions raid tiers, and depending on the encounter, the margin is significant (^10%). Folks will say, "Ah yes, but BMs mobility......". That is an advantage only for the length of time it takes for an encounter to be learned, and not even for the total time it takes to progress past a given encounter.

    So whilst BM ain't burning up the charts, I wouldn't go so far as to say it's shit....just lacking. That does take something away from the fun of playing the spec, but so to do the other things I've mentioned.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by paror View Post
    The actual world. Should try it.
    http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/T23_Raid.html explain why the only ones 30% behind even the top DPS spec is non-DPS specs, then? Or maybe you're freed of the burden of intelligence to such a degree that you think statistics on warcraftlogs actually says how good the specs are? Because I'm assuming even you don't think you're dumb enough to compare the worst spec of a pure DPS class to the best DPS spec in the game, and you're comparing BM to MM.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Segus1992 View Post
    I'd like to hear examples and/or arguments. I see this said a lot and nobody ever backs it up.
    I swapped to MM this week and it's easier than BM, especially in 3 target cleave. BM is absolutely clusterfuck with having to manage beast cleave, barbed shot stacks and kill commands between.

    Rotation is very simple and MM is even almost as mobile as BM since aimed shot is the only ability that cannot be casted while moving. Even then there is big room to hold aimed shot as long as you don't overcap focus or aimed shot charges. If you miss few aimed shots during encounter because of movement MM still is far ahead.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Segus1992 View Post
    30% behind? What world do you live in?
    No melee is ever going to be easier than BM simply because of the movement requirements. Havoc, while simple, requires quick thinking. Any other spec you mentioned is just ridiculous. "prioritizes abilities as they come off CD" is exactly what BM does, except AoE where you space it out with MS. Simply because you're a ranged with full mobility, BM automatically becomes easier than any of the mentioned specs even if the rotations in a vacuum are similarly easy.

    Yes, BM is most certainly easier. Not even close. Have YOU tried those specs? They're not hard, but they're nowhere near BM.


    Havoc is simple, as mentioned above, but requires quick thinking and movement. BM is similarly simple without these requirements.
    You quite simply ignored my entire post as soon as you read “prioritize off cd” didn’t you? I know you did because if you read my post entirely you would know that’s exactly what BM doesn’t do.
    You’re also now trying to split hairs by bringing movement into the arguement, which also has no place in this discussion. Movement has zero impact on how hard a spec is to play. It may impact some elements such as damage potential on boss phases, but that doesn’t make it difficult. Are you high? Trying to pass off movement as an element of difficulty. I’ve even stated in previous posts that stating movement is a reason to nerf a class is beyond silly as having 100% of it has such a little factor as to try and justify a huge gap between specs.
    You keep trying to state Havoc requires quick thinking. This is just laughable. Havoc is by far one of the easiest melee specs right now, if not the easiest. Maybe if you mentioned Feral you’d have a point. As it stands, the 2 most difficult specs in game right now from a dps standpoint are Ferals and Aff Locks. Everything else is laughable.
    Again though, the fact you stated BM just uses every ability as it comes off CD just makes me realize you either have no idea how BM plays, or you have no idea what min/max means.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    You quite simply ignored my entire post as soon as you read “prioritize off cd” didn’t you? I know you did because if you read my post entirely you would know that’s exactly what BM doesn’t do.
    You’re also now trying to split hairs by bringing movement into the arguement, which also has no place in this discussion. Movement has zero impact on how hard a spec is to play. It may impact some elements such as damage potential on boss phases, but that doesn’t make it difficult. Are you high? Trying to pass off movement as an element of difficulty. I’ve even stated in previous posts that stating movement is a reason to nerf a class is beyond silly as having 100% of it has such a little factor as to try and justify a huge gap between specs.
    You keep trying to state Havoc requires quick thinking. This is just laughable. Havoc is by far one of the easiest melee specs right now, if not the easiest. Maybe if you mentioned Feral you’d have a point. As it stands, the 2 most difficult specs in game right now from a dps standpoint are Ferals and Aff Locks. Everything else is laughable.
    Again though, the fact you stated BM just uses every ability as it comes off CD just makes me realize you either have no idea how BM plays, or you have no idea what min/max means.
    The literal only case of thinking whatsoever a BM has to do is 1. use MS on cleave and 2. don't use Barbed Shot on CD. If you want to maximize Frenzy, you need to manage Barbed Shot somewhat (though perfect uptime is not possible).

    Movement NOT being a part of how hard a spec is to play is just ridiculous, what kind of moron compares specs by how difficult they are to maximize on a dummy?

    Havoc requires quick thinking because it, like any melee spec, requires movement. I'll be honest I haven't played Havoc since Legion, during the period when Momentum was the build you went with, and based it off of that. One of the few specs I haven't played in BfA. I could be wrong about it these days.

    That said, a melee is automatically harder than a ranged spec by default, especially one that has no limitations whatsoever on mobility.

    The fact that you think Barbed Shot somehow makes BM more than an inch from completely mindless is mind boggling. While yes, you want to delay it to be as close to the buff running out as possible, that's also the only thinking you have to do unless you have Barrage or Stampede talented, where you want to save the CDs for when AoE happens, if it does sometime soon.
    The problem is that most, if not all, other classes have these kinds of abilities baseline. Havoc, the spec you see as the easiest in the game, has Eye Beam baseline, as well as Immolation Aura, Blade Dance, Fel Barrage, and Fel Rush as talents. These abilities all need to be held off on if AoE or cleave is coming up.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Segus1992 View Post
    30% behind? What world do you live in?
    No melee is ever going to be easier than BM simply because of the movement requirements. Havoc, while simple, requires quick thinking. Any other spec you mentioned is just ridiculous. "prioritizes abilities as they come off CD" is exactly what BM does, except AoE where you space it out with MS. Simply because you're a ranged with full mobility, BM automatically becomes easier than any of the mentioned specs even if the rotations in a vacuum are similarly easy.

    Yes, BM is most certainly easier. Not even close. Have YOU tried those specs? They're not hard, but they're nowhere near BM.


    Havoc is simple, as mentioned above, but requires quick thinking and movement. BM is similarly simple without these requirements.
    Havoc doesnt require thinking any quicker than bm. But havoc does require much less thinking ahead than bm.

  20. #100
    been playing for all of legion to now. Right now it really feels like its falling off. Its not terrible but even parsing well on warcraftlogs, its starting to be non competitive in my raid group.

    I am going to try switching to MM for a bit and see if I can compete a bit better even with the movement impairment

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