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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    The thing is that the huge advantage of BM is not seen on a Target Dummie. The potential of having 100 % uptime on a boss is great with BM because you can attack at all time. You can also move at all time which makes "ranged mechanics" much easier. A BM hunter should in theory always be the last to die in a raid because it is so easy to survive when you can move around as you please. Remember, dead players do no damage. This is also why top guilds bring BM hunters no matter how they perform in terms of simulated dps or on a target dummie.
    This is stupid statement, it's not necessity to dps 100% of time thus ranged mechanics are as easy for every ranged. Did you know every spec can move their ass just like BM? If you have to move you just stop dps and don't die with specs that arent as mobile.

    In the end it doesn't matter if BM can do damage while moving because the gap is so huge and the non-mobile specs will beat BM regardless of 100% mobility.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by DotJun View Post
    I understand how parses work. My point was that all classes are easy enough to purple parse on so in the end who cares how easy one class is over the other when they are all brain dead easy?
    If it’s easy to purple parse it means you are better than the other players. It has norhing to do with how easy a class/spec is. Therefore it is not a valid or relevant argument in a debate about spec difficulty.

    BM hunter is by far easier to play than other specs. BM is by far the mos “brain dead” spec in the game. Therefore it is only natural that its maximum capacity is the lowest. BM still perform too well in M+.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mmocfd1b0ab5a3 View Post
    This is stupid statement, it's not necessity to dps 100% of time thus ranged mechanics are as easy for every ranged. Did you know every spec can move their ass just like BM? If you have to move you just stop dps and don't die with specs that arent as mobile.

    In the end it doesn't matter if BM can do damage while moving because the gap is so huge and the non-mobile specs will beat BM regardless of 100% mobility.
    If it’s a stupid statement then it shouldn’t be necessary for you to point it out.

    Of course it matters that BM can move at all time. Especially in M+. With BM you can put all your focus on dungeon/raid mechanics because it requires no focus to play the class itself.

    In raids when people know the fights inside out, then mobility becomes less important but at that time performance doesnt really matter anymore because the bosses are on farm.

    In M+ ranged mobile dps is worth gold.
    Last edited by Kaver; 2019-02-18 at 10:11 AM.

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Of course it matters that BM can move at all time. Especially in M+. With BM you can put all your focus on dungeon/raid mechanics because it requires no focus to play the class itself.
    Isn't it the opposite? BM has to focus on rotation and raid mechanics at the same time. As a caster mechanics does not suddenly require extra focus if all you do is to interrupt your rotation and continue it after done with that mechanic?
    All this assumes both classes know their rotation already and it's in their muscle memory.
    Last edited by mmocfd1b0ab5a3; 2019-02-18 at 12:22 PM.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by mmocfd1b0ab5a3 View Post
    Isn't it the opposite? BM has to focus on rotation and raid mechanics at the same time. As a caster mechanics does not suddenly require extra focus if all you do is to interrupt your rotation and continue it after done with that mechanic?
    All this assumes both classes know their rotation already and it's in their muscle memory.
    Yes, if that was true.. which it is not. No good raider completely interrupts their rotation because of movement.

    I guess you would think that if you never played anything else but BM. But that’s not how it works in reality. If you try some other specs you will see.

    A lot of mythic raid fights contain a lot of movement. So simply interrupting your rotation is not an option. You still have to keep it up as best as you can while moving. BM can very easily do that.

    However, from your descriptions I can see you dont really raid. Otherwise you would know all this.
    Last edited by Kaver; 2019-02-18 at 12:43 PM.

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by PLS View Post
    Lets see your logs! Hunters used in both world 1,2,3 kills where they could class stack anything they wanted....
    Agreed, let's see the world 1/2/3 kills and if the BM hunters aren't in the top 5 DPS, let's get some account bans rolling for the forum trolls.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mmocfd1b0ab5a3 View Post
    Isn't it the opposite? BM has to focus on rotation and raid mechanics at the same time. As a caster mechanics does not suddenly require extra focus if all you do is to interrupt your rotation and continue it after done with that mechanic?
    All this assumes both classes know their rotation already and it's in their muscle memory.
    There isn't really a rotation for BM.

    Casters are similar to melee in that their DPS is higher to account for their downtime from moving. This means there is zero advantage for "BM being able to move" because mage, warlock, boomkin, spriest DPS is already padded to account for moving.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    If it’s easy to purple parse it means you are better than the other players. It has nothing to do with how easy a class/spec is. Therefore it is not a valid or relevant argument in a debate about spec difficulty.
    Parse color is based on %, and the bigger the number of players there is, the larger the population of orange or purpose parses is.

    So on a heavily played spec like BM, it is easier to parse. But it is even easier to parse as say a ret paladin or a DH because there are so many.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    BM hunter is by far easier to play than other specs. BM is by far the most “brain dead” spec in the game. Therefore it is only natural that its maximum capacity is the lowest. BM still perform too well in M+.
    BM is actually one of the most complicated specs in the game right now. All flavors of mage and warlock are easier. Feral druid is harder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by klogaroth View Post
    If you look at the representation in raid, sorted in order of spec DPS ranking (lowest on the left) then you get this:



    There are plenty of spots for BMs. They're a very useful spec to bring to progression. They're especially useful to give special jobs to without it tanking their DPS. Sure it's going to lower it sometimes, but they don't lose as much as other specs. They bring enough that almost all the time if you can have a BM, you should have a BM. When you don't want a BM, you probably consider an MM.

    There are more BMs than arms, survival, fire mage, frost DK, unholy DK, and sub rogues combined. That's not really the sign of a shit spec. Also you have the option of going MM if you really want/need to push damage. Warriors, DKs, rogues, monks, mages, DHs, and paladins don't have the option of a DPS spec that's better than the highest damage hunter spec. Overall, there's plenty of options for hunters in Dazar Alor.
    The fact that many groups are bad and bring bad specs to raid, do not make the specs good.

    Method isn't going to kick their long time raiders out of the guild because they're playing a hunter, nor are most guilds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by asil View Post
    I really am sick of seeing people think parses are the end all of what makes a spec good in this game.
    So DPS should focus on not doing damage, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimbolt View Post
    Yeah for top 50 guilds and top 100 mythic+ groups. For anyone else outside of that, which is 98% of the player base, it really does not matter one bit.
    BM is still the worst spec in the game, even if it does not matter that they are the worst spec in the game.

    If you hop on wowprogress for your server and check out the top 5 guilds, you'll see most the hunters are switching over from BM to MM.
    Snarky: Adjective - Any language that contains quips or comments containing sarcastic or satirical witticisms intended as blunt irony. Usually delivered in a manner that is somewhat abrupt and out of context and intended to stun and amuse.

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by bullseyed View Post
    Agreed, let's see the world 1/2/3 kills and if the BM hunters aren't in the top 5 DPS, let's get some account bans rolling for the forum trolls.

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    There isn't really a rotation for BM.

    Casters are similar to melee in that their DPS is higher to account for their downtime from moving. This means there is zero advantage for "BM being able to move" because mage, warlock, boomkin, spriest DPS is already padded to account for moving.

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    Parse color is based on %, and the bigger the number of players there is, the larger the population of orange or purpose parses is.

    So on a heavily played spec like BM, it is easier to parse. But it is even easier to parse as say a ret paladin or a DH because there are so many.



    BM is actually one of the most complicated specs in the game right now. All flavors of mage and warlock are easier. Feral druid is harder.

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    The fact that many groups are bad and bring bad specs to raid, do not make the specs good.

    Method isn't going to kick their long time raiders out of the guild because they're playing a hunter, nor are most guilds.

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    So DPS should focus on not doing damage, right?

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    BM is still the worst spec in the game, even if it does not matter that they are the worst spec in the game.

    If you hop on wowprogress for your server and check out the top 5 guilds, you'll see most the hunters are switching over from BM to MM.
    Is it actually possible for you to have constructive input in a discussion? Or can you only reply with hyperbole?

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by paror View Post
    No they are not. I am getting a bit tired of reading everyhwere that hunters are fine. You do know that Ging for example was 50% dps behind the number 1 dps on Jaina.
    I am not saying you cant bring a bm to the fights I am saying that it's retarded to call bm fine because a few are being brought to mythic progression. We are too far behind. Why would anyone take a bm hunter. The core strenght mobility is about 0% usefull on current tier. The warlocks 10ilvls below bm is doing a serieus shit ton more dps then bm. So that means bm is auto-bench in most guilds.
    This. No unique abilities either. Rogues can tricks to replace MD. Mages and shamans can bloodlust. Traps are generally worse than hex, sheep, and other CC.

    The best thing hunters have going for them is being able to turtle and hit bombs on Jadefire. Which paladins can also do with bubble and they do more DPS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by threadz View Post
    blizz probably sees no reason to buff BM when it's so overplayed. they only buff specs that nobody plays and gets kicked from groups, or makes memes on reddit.
    This is true. They have a long history of buffs and nerfs based on player count rather than actual DPS strength.

    You'd hope that Ion would be the one to reverse that trend, given that it was always a big topic on the EJs board back in the day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    BM will always be fine because of the freedom and have a very good average performance.
    If you drop down to normal mode and do 50th percentile, they are still the 9th worst DPS spec. The only class they beat is DK.

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...y=3&dataset=50

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    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    That is because nobody likes those specs.

    BM has been the most popular spec in the game since Burning Crusade. By absolute miles. And yet it's so bad now that other hunter specs are being played more, because it's so so bad that even the people who really want to play it, aren't.

    BM just doesn't scale and apparently Blizzard doesn't care.

    The exact same thing happened in legion. BM got progressively worse and worse throughout the expansion because gear upgrades simply don't do as much for BM as they do for every other DPS spec. The trend in BFA was obvious before mythic Uldir had even been cleared. BM was one of the top specs at 340 gear level, middle of the road at 355, and one of the worst at 370. Now with everyone 390+ it's literally trash tier, being 20% worse than everyone else.

    Needs to be fixed, probably won't, Blizzard don't tend to fix these things unless people stop playing a spec, and BM will continue to be popular because it's the only fully mobile ranged DPS spec and you get a pet cat.
    I feel the need here to apologize. I started the "steady shot macro" thread on EJs back in TBC. This may be my fault.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Okatan View Post
    Gingi repeatedly said that he plays BM because he doesn't have the right traits and difference between BM and MM for him is very little. Don't try to compare your gear level and traits with his gear.

    He also stated that he needs to do bitch job for tanks, needs target switching and mobility. Those are another reasons. Don't try to copy what he does and think on your own.

    And on final note: More BM Hunters =/= BM is better.
    This guy is going places.

    I'm curious as to what job he has to do for the tanks though. MD? That's the only thing that makes sense with how little utility hunters have.

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    Quote Originally Posted by threadz View Post
    not really. BM is still the most played spec by miles. MM has maybe 1/4 the # of parses and SV has been dead since it went melee.
    SV has been the best spec for hunters for BFA overall. Unclear if it still is after the recent Blur of Talons nerf.

    Just that Uldir was melee unfriendly and since hunters have the least utility of any DPS class, they weren't used. The new raid isn't melee unfriendly, but SV nerfs came just at the right time to discourage people from playing SV.

    I've been simming right around top 120 US for SV (and was briefly top 20 before mythic opened) but am not in a hard pushing guild.

    Anyways... SV is a great spec if your raid has room for melee. The "rotation" is smoother than BM was in legion, and it is basically a 2 button spec for 50% of the fight. Even if you've always hated melee like me, try it out. Turns out I hated combo points, not melee.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Poppincaps View Post
    So Blizzard seems to like the philosophy of every class can do everything alright, but fights that fit their niche they excel in. Rastakhan probably has the most movement of any fight in BoD, but when you look at Heroic logs, BM is upper middle. If you look at warlocks, spriests, and balance druids, the fights that they would excel on, aka multidot fights, of which there are a lot of in the raid, they do tremendously well compared to everyone else. But yet they're also beating BM by like 2-3k even on the fight that BM should be top on.
    BM on heroic Rasta at 75th has 12 specs above it and 12 specs below it. The only classes not above BM on that fight are monk, paladin, warrior and death knight. BM is beaten there by 2 of 3 mage specs, 2 of 3 rogue specs, 3 of 3 warlock specs, 1 of 2 shaman, 1 of 2 druid, 1 of 1 priest and 1 of 1 DH.

    If you bump up to 90th, it becomes the 7th worst spec, falling 5 places.

    If you drop all the way down to 50th, it has 15 specs below it, putting it in the upper half.

    At no point for any percentile does it reach upper middle.
    Snarky: Adjective - Any language that contains quips or comments containing sarcastic or satirical witticisms intended as blunt irony. Usually delivered in a manner that is somewhat abrupt and out of context and intended to stun and amuse.

  8. #148
    Stood in the Fire Pakheth's Avatar
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    And here I am just wishing we could go back to MoP design of the hunter specs, especially BM. Fun to play and mobile. Easy to learn, hard to master, unlike whatever unintuitive mess of a clusterfuck we have now.

  9. #149
    are they ever gonna buff bm damage or traits ?

  10. #150
    Elemental Lord Poppincaps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kayagurcu View Post
    are they ever gonna buff bm damage or traits ?
    It seems like they might be done with balancing? I mean BM is problematic, but Spriests are by far the best and they still haven't done anything to address it even though the raids been out for almost a month. Seems they're satisfied with the current balance, which I find laughable but what can you do.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Kayagurcu View Post
    are they ever gonna buff bm damage or traits ?
    they haven't cared that we use 1 talent build for everything since launch so i doubt it.

  12. #152
    Class design team: We're not bad at math
    Also class design team:


  13. #153
    The Insane FelPlague's Avatar
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    also is it just me or do like.. all hunters play BM? just did heroic rasts, 4/5 hunters were BM the other MM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FpicEail View Post
    Class design team: We're not bad at math
    Also class design team:

    there is a big difference between math and clas balance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleccybubb View Post
    Azerite is absolutely RNG you are right. You have no idea what traits will be on that piece you got from a random source until you roll it. I've literally had a Warfront piece that had the "opposite faction" passive and no passive/proc for my spec but it did for the other 2.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    there is a big difference between math and clas balance.
    Balance is tuning. Tuning involves math.

  15. #155
    The Insane FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FpicEail View Post
    Balance is tuning. Tuning involves math.
    balancing involves tuning and testing and leveling and compensating.


    a talent that is "dreadstalker is now instant" how do you apply math to that? without just ruining the whole point of the talent?
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleccybubb View Post
    Azerite is absolutely RNG you are right. You have no idea what traits will be on that piece you got from a random source until you roll it. I've literally had a Warfront piece that had the "opposite faction" passive and no passive/proc for my spec but it did for the other 2.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by bullseyed View Post
    Agreed, let's see the world 1/2/3 kills and if the BM hunters aren't in the top 5 DPS, let's get some account bans rolling for the forum trolls.

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    There isn't really a rotation for BM.

    Casters are similar to melee in that their DPS is higher to account for their downtime from moving. This means there is zero advantage for "BM being able to move" because mage, warlock, boomkin, spriest DPS is already padded to account for moving.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Parse color is based on %, and the bigger the number of players there is, the larger the population of orange or purpose parses is.

    So on a heavily played spec like BM, it is easier to parse. But it is even easier to parse as say a ret paladin or a DH because there are so many.



    BM is actually one of the most complicated specs in the game right now. All flavors of mage and warlock are easier. Feral druid is harder.

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    The fact that many groups are bad and bring bad specs to raid, do not make the specs good.

    Method isn't going to kick their long time raiders out of the guild because they're playing a hunter, nor are most guilds.

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    So DPS should focus on not doing damage, right?

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    BM is still the worst spec in the game, even if it does not matter that they are the worst spec in the game.

    If you hop on wowprogress for your server and check out the top 5 guilds, you'll see most the hunters are switching over from BM to MM.
    Are you trolling?

    Your perception of other specs’ mobility is completely skewed.

    BM is by faaaaaaar the easiest spec to play in both raiding and M+. I have a BM as my first Alt and it is ridiculous how little effort you have to put in to do good damage. It cant multidot but that would also be completely insane when the complexity of the spec is so low.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Are you trolling?

    Your perception of other specs’ mobility is completely skewed.

    BM is by faaaaaaar the easiest spec to play in both raiding and M+. I have a BM as my first Alt and it is ridiculous how little effort you have to put in to do good damage. It cant multidot but that would also be completely insane when the complexity of the spec is so low.

    Wow look at that man, he has a BM hunter alt. LMAO

  18. #158
    To the OP

    BM is fine and you should only swap to MM if you get Azerite pieces that push your damage past BM. A lot of players already have decent BM gear. Over time as people get better gear for MM it will consistently do better damage than BM in BoD. If you have only played BM up until BoD, then there will be a small learning curve for MM as well.

    BM's single target damage could do with a buff, possibly reversing the 5% nerf that was done at the start of Uldir. By the end of Uldir BM was already starting to fall behind as other classes scaled better with more BiS gear and the re-origination array. BM's single target damage doesn't scale well with any specific stat and with the loot rng of titan/war-forging you can be stuck with too much of one stat and there's little you can do about it. BM's strength is mobility which is good for encounters like Mekkatorque , Conclave , Rastakhan & Jaina. It also has great defensive's (extra stam and a 100k+ heal every 30 secs) which can be useful for progression.

    With MM however mastery is going to increase your damage across the board so as the Tier progresses and you get more BiS pieces it will scale very well. In BoD there are a number of fights where MM has an advantage especially in regards to target switching and multi target fights where Careful Aim has higher up time. MM also has a better execute so it will excel at the end of fights which is great for progression.

    BoD is great for multi-dot classes with encounters like Jadefire, Grong, Conclave, Rastakhan, Stormwall and Jaina, in Uldir there were very few fights where this was an advantage. Add to this that BM's single target damage is a bit lower that it should be and you can easily see why its not really going to be a top performer in BoD. That doesn't make it bad, just not optimal.

    As shown in this thread I think the most disappointing issue with BM is the lack of options in regards to viable alternative talent choices.
    Last edited by rustyboy; 2019-02-19 at 02:14 PM.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Regalosh View Post
    Wow look at that man, he has a BM hunter alt. LMAO
    Nothing wrong with playing BM. But thinking that BM is a complex spec is just crazy.

    Personally I couldnt main a BM hunter. It would be waaaaay too boring. It’s nice to have as an Alt though for when you need to turn your brain off for a while.
    Last edited by Kaver; 2019-02-19 at 03:23 PM.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Yes, if that was true.. which it is not. No good raider completely interrupts their rotation because of movement.

    I guess you would think that if you never played anything else but BM. But that’s not how it works in reality. If you try some other specs you will see.

    A lot of mythic raid fights contain a lot of movement. So simply interrupting your rotation is not an option. You still have to keep it up as best as you can while moving. BM can very easily do that.

    However, from your descriptions I can see you dont really raid. Otherwise you would know all this.
    The major big problem I see with BM and aways be like that, is that all talentes are instant + free movement = you need to be ALWAYS cast something to not drop your dps, with classes, like locks, mages, shamans ( those 3 i'm leveling alts right now) and at some point, you can wait a couple seconds for a proc and not droping so much dps like when you need to pop turtle to soak something (which, by the way, i believe is the only immune of all classes besisdes mages that makes you unable to cast anything during it, correct me if I wrong)
    Last edited by Lodvampire; 2019-02-19 at 08:15 PM.

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