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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by klogaroth View Post
    There are more BMs than arms, survival, fire mage, frost DK, unholy DK, and sub rogues combined.
    That is because nobody likes those specs.

    BM has been the most popular spec in the game since Burning Crusade. By absolute miles. And yet it's so bad now that other hunter specs are being played more, because it's so so bad that even the people who really want to play it, aren't.

    BM just doesn't scale and apparently Blizzard doesn't care.

    The exact same thing happened in legion. BM got progressively worse and worse throughout the expansion because gear upgrades simply don't do as much for BM as they do for every other DPS spec. The trend in BFA was obvious before mythic Uldir had even been cleared. BM was one of the top specs at 340 gear level, middle of the road at 355, and one of the worst at 370. Now with everyone 390+ it's literally trash tier, being 20% worse than everyone else.

    Needs to be fixed, probably won't, Blizzard don't tend to fix these things unless people stop playing a spec, and BM will continue to be popular because it's the only fully mobile ranged DPS spec and you get a pet cat.
    Last edited by ydraw; 2019-02-10 at 05:36 PM.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    BM will always be fine because of the freedom and have a very good average performance. It will typically never have the potential for absolute maximum performance but that only matters when bosses are on farm. During progression parses wont matter. It’s more about doing mechanics correctly and BM has amazing potential of doing that. Gingi from Method played BM during their World First which just shows that BM hunters always will have spots in raids no matter of their maximum dps potential.

    Also, if you join a random pug for normal or heroic BoD you will see that BM hunters perform much better than shown in the logs.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Exactly. When my guild are doing mythic progression, we often see BM hunters on top of the meters because they have much more uptime and freedom compared to other classes. Parses and Logs often shows the maximum dps potential after bosses are on farm but that doesn’t matter at all.

    People who do high logs also often ignore mechanics and focus only on maximising dps. They ignore priority targets etc if it will reduce their overall dps output.
    if your BM hunters are topping this tier you are not clearing mythic anytime soon.

  3. #43
    Gingi repeatedly said that he plays BM because he doesn't have the right traits and difference between BM and MM for him is very little. Don't try to compare your gear level and traits with his gear.

    He also stated that he needs to do bitch job for tanks, needs target switching and mobility. Those are another reasons. Don't try to copy what he does and think on your own.

    And on final note: More BM Hunters =/= BM is better.

  4. #44
    BM is bad but the hunter community will repeatedly engage in self-flagellation and bend over backwards to justify it being bad. Meanwhile other classes will fight tooth and nail for buffs. That's why hunters are always bad.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by big-john View Post
    I have been looking at the recent logs on HC and it looks like BM is down the sewer. It's a bottom trash spec while MM is pulling way ahead, it's not even close.

    Is MM the best spec now?? BM looks useless.

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...e=7&dataset=90

    They could nerf other specs while NOT DOING ANYTHING TO BM and suddenly you would think BM is fine just because it's not shown as bottom on this chat (while still being the exact same thing you just called trash).

    It's all about perception, Gingi was BM in Method, did most mechanics, did well and got world first. Many other specs were not there at all. Graphs like that are just like propaganda. Just play what you enjoy and you'll be able to clear every possible content in the game. Stop being a branwashed sheeple who get offended by graphs.

  6. #46
    Alot of hunters play bm because its unlimited mobility but that doesn't mean its better than mm. A good mm hunter will demolish a bm hunter in a dps fight.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Freshouttajail View Post
    They could nerf other specs while NOT DOING ANYTHING TO BM and suddenly you would think BM is fine just because it's not shown as bottom on this chat (while still being the exact same thing you just called trash).

    It's all about perception, Gingi was BM in Method, did most mechanics, did well and got world first. Many other specs were not there at all. Graphs like that are just like propaganda. Just play what you enjoy and you'll be able to clear every possible content in the game. Stop being a branwashed sheeple who get offended by graphs.
    Do you think you're saying something enlightening here? Obviously if other specs were nerfed down to BM's level, people would say BM is fine. The whole point is that, relative to most specs, BM does significantly less damage in most situations. People don't compare their DPS to what's necessary to kill the boss, they compare their DPS to other players. Just a fact of life.

    Having said that, BM isn't useless. If you somehow have an absolutely terrible MM setup (e.g. no UV traits, shit weapon) and you're going to be on bitch duty for M Jaina (doing ballista, carrying bombs your priests didn't MC fast enough, escorting your tank with Avalanche), BM brings some value. It theoretically loses less DPS than MM would doing all those jobs, and it has Spirit Mend to help keep you alive if you know you're going to be out of the raid stack for a bit (e.g. when escorting the tank with Avalanche). Something people love to ignore is that Gingi has explicitly stated that he did not have a good setup for MM, and that was the main reason he played BM.

    If you have good MM azerite and you're playing BM on any boss besides M Jaina (and you probably only want 1 BM at most for Jaina), and you're not just completely incompetent at MM, you're probably not doing the most damage you could be doing, and if you're competitive, you should feel bad about that.

    If you're not competitive, who cares what you play? Have fun. :-)

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by HonneurVilified View Post
    Do you think you're saying something enlightening here? Obviously if other specs were nerfed down to BM's level, people would say BM is fine. The whole point is that, relative to most specs, BM does significantly less damage in most situations. People don't compare their DPS to what's necessary to kill the boss, they compare their DPS to other players. Just a fact of life.

    Having said that, BM isn't useless. If you somehow have an absolutely terrible MM setup (e.g. no UV traits, shit weapon) and you're going to be on bitch duty for M Jaina (doing ballista, carrying bombs your priests didn't MC fast enough, escorting your tank with Avalanche), BM brings some value. It theoretically loses less DPS than MM would doing all those jobs, and it has Spirit Mend to help keep you alive if you know you're going to be out of the raid stack for a bit (e.g. when escorting the tank with Avalanche). Something people love to ignore is that Gingi has explicitly stated that he did not have a good setup for MM, and that was the main reason he played BM.

    If you have good MM azerite and you're playing BM on any boss besides M Jaina (and you probably only want 1 BM at most for Jaina), and you're not just completely incompetent at MM, you're probably not doing the most damage you could be doing, and if you're competitive, you should feel bad about that.

    If you're not competitive, who cares what you play? Have fun. :-)
    If what I said was well known we would never see these stupid useless threads because people know that it means nothing and they know that there will always be a bottom spec therefore making it useless to talk about this at all. Yet people keep on making these threads. So yeah, for a lot of people this should be enlightening.

    Being competitive or not changes little to nothing. Proved by Method having Gingi as BM and getting world first.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    That is because nobody likes those specs.

    BM has been the most popular spec in the game since Burning Crusade. By absolute miles. And yet it's so bad now that other hunter specs are being played more, because it's so so bad that even the people who really want to play it, aren't.

    BM just doesn't scale and apparently Blizzard doesn't care.

    The exact same thing happened in legion. BM got progressively worse and worse throughout the expansion because gear upgrades simply don't do as much for BM as they do for every other DPS spec. The trend in BFA was obvious before mythic Uldir had even been cleared. BM was one of the top specs at 340 gear level, middle of the road at 355, and one of the worst at 370. Now with everyone 390+ it's literally trash tier, being 20% worse than everyone else.

    Needs to be fixed, probably won't, Blizzard don't tend to fix these things unless people stop playing a spec, and BM will continue to be popular because it's the only fully mobile ranged DPS spec and you get a pet cat.
    not really. BM is still the most played spec by miles. MM has maybe 1/4 the # of parses and SV has been dead since it went melee.

  10. #50
    This thread is a good example of why BM buffs are so rare to come by. So many of the people that continue playing it just literally have no idea or just flat don't care about being competitive. All they can do is quote Gingi playing it for WF while being clueless of the context. And as long as you have this army of "it's fine" people no wonder Blizzard doesn't care to look deeper.

  11. #51
    Elemental Lord Poppincaps's Avatar
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    So Blizzard seems to like the philosophy of every class can do everything alright, but fights that fit their niche they excel in. Rastakhan probably has the most movement of any fight in BoD, but when you look at Heroic logs, BM is upper middle. If you look at warlocks, spriests, and balance druids, the fights that they would excel on, aka multidot fights, of which there are a lot of in the raid, they do tremendously well compared to everyone else. But yet they're also beating BM by like 2-3k even on the fight that BM should be top on.

    To be fair though, I don't think that's necessarily a problem with BM, although I think it could use a 5% buff probably, but also the fact that spriests, boomys, and warlocks are pretty ridiculous right now. Although tbh spriests kinda got shit on for the first part of the expansion, so I'm fine with them having their moment in the sun.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Mavick View Post
    This thread is a good example of why BM buffs are so rare to come by. So many of the people that continue playing it just literally have no idea or just flat don't care about being competitive. All they can do is quote Gingi playing it for WF while being clueless of the context. And as long as you have this army of "it's fine" people no wonder Blizzard doesn't care to look deeper.
    this! Gingi would have played mm if he would have gotten better traits. His words. I am swapping to my moonkin in raids. Currently last phase Meka torque mythic and I just can not do competitive DPS as BM

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by threadz View Post
    not really. BM is still the most played spec by miles. MM has maybe 1/4 the # of parses and SV has been dead since it went melee.
    It's the most played hunter spec, but it's outnumbered by 3-4 other ranged specs nowadays.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by HonneurVilified View Post
    Do you think you're saying something enlightening here? Obviously if other specs were nerfed down to BM's level, people would say BM is fine. The whole point is that, relative to most specs, BM does significantly less damage in most situations. People don't compare their DPS to what's necessary to kill the boss, they compare their DPS to other players. Just a fact of life.
    And with good reason. Because raid leaders look at the relative DPS charts and decide who to invite on that basis.

  14. #54
    There is a very illuminating post up by Bendak at Eyes of the Beast, go read. I'm new to forums so it wouldn't allow me to link...

  15. #55
    The Lightbringer Niwes's Avatar
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    shit is a relative term.

    numberwise at least wclogs do not look like its great in BoD. as someone who just do a lot outdoor stuff like world quests, islands, etc it has a nice comfort zone. as a m+ player you are good mid ground. pvp i have no glue.

    playwise its subjective. i personally think BM is hell of clunky, boring, slow. you can move while you do most of your dmg. thats nice. other than that the spec feels utterly shit to me. but for me, all the hunter specs and hunter class in general feels shitty to me in BfA (and also did somewhat in Legion). so, its taste.

  16. #56
    Field Marshal Ginji's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    shit is a relative term.

    numberwise at least wclogs do not look like its great in BoD. as someone who just do a lot outdoor stuff like world quests, islands, etc it has a nice comfort zone. as a m+ player you are good mid ground. pvp i have no glue.

    playwise its subjective. i personally think BM is hell of clunky, boring, slow. you can move while you do most of your dmg. thats nice. other than that the spec feels utterly shit to me. but for me, all the hunter specs and hunter class in general feels shitty to me in BfA (and also did somewhat in Legion). so, its taste.
    yeah they really fuked the hunter specs this expansion

  17. #57
    http://eyesofthebeast.com/2019/02/th...r/#more-113634

    ^ the blog by Bendak, and as per usual he nails it

  18. #58

  19. #59
    Shadow is the top DPS on that log?

    Has the world gone crazy, insane and topsy turvey????

  20. #60
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    To be fair, BM has never scaled well and it has never truly been addressed.
    But, BM isn't brought just for its damage capabilities; if you want damage, you don't bring BM.
    If you want flawless movement at range to deal with mechanics without skipping a beat rotation-wise with some pretty decent on-demand burst for prio burn targets, BM is a good choice.
    It's ease of play is why it's the "most popular" (paired with the exotic pets and such) and it's very welcoming to the lower end player.
    But, that's also what skews the numbers even more and exaggerates the discrepancy in DPS.
    Top tier, performance-first players will typically go with whatever sims best, and being top tier, they are close in performance to the robot sim, thus their chosen spec grows more top-heavy.
    With a lot of mid to lower tier players (skill-wise, content-wise, etc) choosing BM over MM, for example, there are many more parses of subpar performance weighing down the average.

    Basically, the difference isn't as bad as logs indicate and BM is still suitable for a good number of fights given its free movement at range and general utility (turtle shell to cheese mechanics, etc), but if you want pure damage, it is the worst, no questions asked.

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