is BM really this shit?

[Monster Hunter]

I have nothing to say about pvp.

Pets getting stucked doesnt happen very often. But it is something you have to accept when having AI in your spec. On the other side the part works as a permanent dot and does a lot of effortless auto damage.

Of course BM still have to stack with other ranged in some situation but most of the time they can stand wherever they want. Especially in M+.

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That’s true. But with the low skill cap BM has you cant expect it being good at everything. No cast time, no split target damage. It’s only fair.

And with havoc dh's low skill cap it can't expect to be good at everything.

The difficulty added for having to cast some thing or be in melee range of the boss (god forbid, how the fuck did the game get to the point where having a fucking cast bar is the peak of complexity..... Fuck me) isn't any where near enough to excuse or defend the sizable difference between top and bottom.

What about 2nd from bottom? Or are they to easy?

Fire mage is almost just as mobile, is ranged and as easy.

[bullseyed]

Damm, looks like someone got bellow a BM hunter on charts, lol.

And given that BM is basically the worst spec in the game right now, he's super bad.

[Kaver]

No, easy is not a reason for low dps. All specs should be viable always to promote choice difficulty is not relevant at all. Besides by that argument you could say x spec is hard to play so should be more damage and then you'll find someone else will say no its easy too hard or easy are subjective, a moving goalpost that varies player to player.

BM is completely viable. Many people use it in mythic raiding.

But it has by far the lowest skill cap in the game and therefore it is only fair it also has the lowest dps cap. It is still very viable.

[Monster Hunter]

These options don't dont come with the talent system. They come with the content, different talents, different items, different stats and itemization and ability scaling. They could bring all this back today and keep the current talent system, it would work exactly the same way. The talent system is just a page layout that dictates how you click on icons to gain upgrades. The upgrades are what makes a difference in gameplay, not really how you spend your points.

And the more you have the more freedom and fun. Maybe you didn't find the choice between some hit or some spell power fun. But Alot of people did find the process of looking at all that choice we had and crafting something pure meme out of it.

[Kaver]

And with havoc dh's low skill cap it can't expect to be good at everything.

The difficulty added for having to cast some thing or be in melee range of the boss (god forbid, how the fuck did the game get to the point where having a fucking cast bar is the peak of complexity..... Fuck me) isn't any where near enough to excuse or defend the sizable difference between top and bottom.

What about 2nd from bottom? Or are they to easy?

Fire mage is almost just as mobile, is ranged and as easy.

Fire mages have cast time abilities plus a much more unforgiving rotation and CD’s.

If you add cast time on Kill Command and Cobras shot plus give BM an actual rotation not just a priority list, then we can talk about getting BM higher on the list.

Havoc should be second bottom, but Blizzard wont do that to their newest spec.

[Freshouttajail]

And the more you have the more freedom and fun. Maybe you didn't find the choice between some hit or some spell power fun. But Alot of people did find the process of looking at all that choice we had and crafting something pure meme out of it.

I had a lot of fun with it. But that's all completely unrelated to the talent system. I just hate when people praise how good the old talent system was when in fact what they enjoyed was the combination of like 10 old features that made character cusotmization fun and they're all unrelated to "the way you put skill points in" which is what a talent system is. You could use the exact same system we had in TBC, put in there only passive talents that give 1% dmg to one skill and there you go, your beloved talent system is now completely dead boring because the system itself does nothing, it's all about the content that goes in it.

[Monster Hunter]

I had a lot of fun with it. But that's all completely unrelated to the talent system. I just hate when people praise how good the old talent system was when in fact what they enjoyed was the combination of like 10 old features that made character cusotmization fun and they're all unrelated to "the way you put skill points in" which is what a talent system is. You could use the exact same system we had in TBC, put in there only passive talents that give 1% dmg to one skill and there you go, your beloved talent system is now completely dead boring because the system itself does nothing, it's all about the content that goes in it.

71 options will always be better than 7. No matter how much you want to "break it down".

And I agree the system was part of a wider ecosystem of freedom and choice. But it was deeply part of that, and I'm not arguing it was perfect, other games have done better.

But my argument is simple, the current system is fucking shit, the current choice ecosystem is fucking shit and the old one, no matter its flaws was better and gave us the opportunity play around far more.

I would rather 71 passive talents than the current system.

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Fire mages have cast time abilities plus a much more unforgiving rotation and CD’s.

If you add cast time on Kill Command and Cobras shot plus give BM an actual rotation not just a priority list, then we can talk about getting BM higher on the list.

Havoc should be second bottom, but Blizzard wont do that to their newest spec.

1. They have 1 cast time ability part of the main dps rotation. Once you get a certain level of crit though it's chaining instants.

They can also replace fireball with scorch for movement.

No one has a rotation anymore.

And cast time is not difficulty or complexity.

[Freshouttajail]

I would rather 71 passive talents than the current system.

Why? You just want to click icons in a menu page? Cuz that's all it would be. If a talent doesn't give a a skill or mechanically change something you already have, IMO it should not exist. The amount of clicks needed to spend the points shouldn't be a concern.

[Monster Hunter]

Why? You just want to click icons in a menu page? Cuz that's all it would be. If a talent doesn't give a a skill or mechanically change something you already have, IMO it should not exist. The amount of clicks needed to spend the points shouldn't be a concern.

Because I want to play with my stats. Lose some here to gain some there, combine it with gear. Maybe I get the imp dmg item for lock and want to make imp gun. So I shuffle some stats around.

Maby I want to make a small trade of between offence and defence.

Lose I bit from something to splash into off healing. Take a bit of frost on my Fire mage.

It's fucking choices. We gained nothing by not having them.

Maybe my shaman wants some block because I got a shield with a funny ability and I want to play a 1h and shield shaman.

Wf shaman was a meme build after all with a 2hand.

Everything they have done since the end of wotlk has been aimed at removing freedom and choice. In the persuite of a balance that never comes.

[Kaver]

1. They have 1 cast time ability part of the main dps rotation. Once you get a certain level of crit though it's chaining instants.

They can also replace fireball with scorch for movement.

No one has a rotation anymore.

And cast time is not difficulty or complexity.

No matter how you put it, it is still much easier to keep up the BM "rotation" while on the move compared to the fire mage rotation. Combustion is also a much more punishing CD to use compared to Bestial Wrath. Mages also have Rune of Power which restrict their movement. Fire mages also have spells like meteor where they have to predict movement before casting it. For AOE fire mages actually have to use different abilities in a certain order.. not just press multishot every fourth second. BM hunters don't have anything like the Hot streak mechanic. BM has to manage a single buff which can be easily tracked with a weak aura.

BM is just the spec with the lowest skill cap. By far. There are no downsides to BM in relation to difficulty. The spec belongs on the bottom of the dps charts. End of story

[Monster Hunter]

No matter how you put it, it is still much easier to keep up the BM "rotation" while on the move compared to the fire mage rotation. Combustion is also a much more punishing CD to use compared to Bestial Wrath. Mages also have Rune of Power which restrict their movement. Fire mages also have spells like meteor where they have to predict movement before casting it. For AOE fire mages actually have to use different abilities in a certain order.. not just press multishot every fourth second. BM hunters don't have anything like the Hot streak mechanic. BM has to manage a single buff which can be easily tracked with a weak aura.

BM is just the spec with the lowest skill cap. By far. There are no downsides to BM in relation to difficulty. The spec belongs on the bottom of the dps charts. End of story

Predict movement? How shit are your tanks. And it's actually pritty punishing going into a CD without having your barbed shot stacked with spare charges to refresh it to hold the duration.

I'm getting the feeling you don't actually play bm. Because bw isn't quivilant to combustion. That would be aspect of the wild.

Befor we continue this I sugest you brush up on how bm plays in bfa.

https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/beast-...owns-abilities

[Eapoe]

Predict movement? How shit are your tanks. And it's actually pritty punishing going into a CD without having your barbed shot stacked with spare charges to refresh it to hold the duration.

I'm getting the feeling you don't actually play bm. Because bw isn't quivilant to combustion. That would be aspect of the wild.

Befor we continue this I sugest you brush up on how bm plays in bfa.

https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/beast-...owns-abilities

Seriously, you should just stop replying to him. Between his/hers and Mavicks responses they are either trolling or missing the point entirely and just arguing to argue with no real point.
As was pointed out to both of them, there are multiple specs that are just as easy as BM, it not easier at this point to min/max damage and play at higher levels (read: the best BM could be played). This includes the concept that BM is indeed an easy spec.
Kaver can’t even point out to you what classes are more complex. He/she even tried using the fact that they are melee means they are harder than BM, which in turn implies that every rdps spec is easier to play than melee while negating the point he made that DH should be 2nd from lowest. Stating melee is inherently harder than a rdps means that DH should be higher than all rdps specs simply because it is melee, then states that it is so easy it should be just above BM.
As stated, he/she is either trolling or just arguing to argue with no factual evidence to back up what they are typing.

[Kaver]

Predict movement? How shit are your tanks. And it's actually pritty punishing going into a CD without having your barbed shot stacked with spare charges to refresh it to hold the duration.

I'm getting the feeling you don't actually play bm. Because bw isn't quivilant to combustion. That would be aspect of the wild.

Befor we continue this I sugest you brush up on how bm plays in bfa.

https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/beast-...owns-abilities

Don't get salty and personal my friend. We are just having a civilized debate here. If it gets too much for you, then you are allowed to close your computer for a couple of hours and return

Legion BM was so easy that BM hunter now thing that a single buff is hard to manage.

I used Bestial Wrath as an example because it is the only CD which actually changes your "rotation" a little bit. At least if you take Killer Cobra. But okay, we can also use Aspect of the Wild for the comparison. That just make BM even easier compared to fire mage. The CD just let you spam your abilities even more :P

I'm not saying it's difficult to play fire mage, but it just have some restrictions (like other specs) which BM don't have. In terms of difficulty there are no downsides to BM and it has by far the lowest skill cap in the game. Therefore it is only fair that it has the lowest dps cap. Fortunately, Blizzard understand this.

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Kaver can’t even point out to you what classes are more complex.

All other specs require more effort to play compared to BM hunter. There you go

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Kaver can’t even point out to you what classes are more complex. He/she even tried using the fact that they are melee means they are harder than BM, which in turn implies that every rdps spec is easier to play than melee.

No not all ranged. Only BM. Other ranged are casters and have a lot of downsides to them. BM don't have these downsides. BM function as a melee but with ranged attacks. Therefore they are easier than melees. You cant compared BM to other ranged classes. BM is a ranged melee spec.

For confirmation: I'm not saying ranged/casters are easier than melee in general. Only BM. There you go mate

[Monster Hunter]

Don't get salty and personal my friend. We are just having a civilized debate here. If it gets too much for you, then you are allowed to close your computer for a couple of hours and return

Legion BM was so easy that BM hunter now thing that a single buff is hard to manage.

I used Bestial Wrath as an example because it is the only CD which actually changes your "rotation" a little bit. At least if you take Killer Cobra. But okay, we can also use Aspect of the Wild for the comparison. That just make BM even easier compared to fire mage. The CD just let you spam your abilities even more :P

I'm not saying it's difficult to play fire mage, but it just have some restrictions (like other specs) which BM don't have. In terms of difficulty there are no downsides to BM and it has by far the lowest skill cap in the game. Therefore it is only fair that it has the lowest dps cap. Fortunately, Blizzard understand this.

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All other specs require more effort to play compared to BM hunter. There you go

It's not salty I'm genuinely saying you need to look up BM, because it's showing that you don't know how they play in bfa.

Fire mage combustion just let's you spam instant pyros.

I'm pritty sure you are just trolling though. But My salt is entirly reserved for blizzard, for the piss poor state of the classes dispite all the feedback given in alpha and beta.

I'd also wager you didn't know marksman was 2 Button spec for 8.0 yet did silly dps on Alot of bosses in uldir. Spam steady shot till lock and load proc, hit aim shot, repeat.... Top dps in my guild... GG I'm so skillezd

[Kaver]

It's not salty I'm genuinely saying you need to look up BM, because it's showing that you don't know how they play in bfa.

Fire mage combustion just let's you spam instant pyros.

I'm pritty sure you are just trolling though. But My salt is entirly reserved for blizzard, for the piss poor state of the classes dispite all the feedback given in alpha and beta.

I'm not trolling.

BM is by far the easiest spec.

FACTS:

- Ranged abilities
- All instant abilities. No cast time
- Simple forgiving rotation. No punishing use-order.
- Very simple AOE rotation.
- Immunity
- Very little resource management. Focus might as well not be there.
- Very simple and unforgiving CD. Bestial Wrath has a very short CD which allows you to use it with very little planning ahead.
- Pet doing a lot of auto damage.

When you COMBINE all these things it makes BM by far the easiest spec in the game.

[Eapoe]

Don't get salty and personal my friend. We are just having a civilized debate here. If it gets too much for you, then you are allowed to close your computer for a couple of hours and return

Legion BM was so easy that BM hunter now thing that a single buff is hard to manage.

I used Bestial Wrath as an example because it is the only CD which actually changes your "rotation" a little bit. At least if you take Killer Cobra. But okay, we can also use Aspect of the Wild for the comparison. That just make BM even easier compared to fire mage. The CD just let you spam your abilities even more :P

I'm not saying it's difficult to play fire mage, but it just have some restrictions (like other specs) which BM don't have. In terms of difficulty there are no downsides to BM and it has by far the lowest skill cap in the game. Therefore it is only fair that it has the lowest dps cap. Fortunately, Blizzard understand this.

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All other specs require more effort to play compared to BM hunter. There you go

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No not all ranged. Only BM. Other ranged are casters and have a lot of downsides to them. BM don't have these downsides. BM function as a melee but with ranged attacks. Therefore they are easier than melees. You cant compared BM to other ranged classes. BM is a ranged melee spec.

For confirmation: I'm not saying ranged/casters are easier than melee in general. Only BM. There you go mate

Your exact post when the person questioned you as to why DH are more complex, why warriors are more complex, etc, is that they are melee while BM is rdps.
Don’t backtrack now and try to change your arguement, simply state that you were wrong, apologize, and clarify.
You also state all other specs require more effort than BM, yet when posed the very direct question of “how,” and the counter response of pointing out that how specifically, your arguement equates to “because.” You are repeating the same thing with no factual evidence to back it up. You say melee are more complex than BM because they have to range a boss, but that comes back to meaning all rdps specs are inherently easier than all melee simply because they don’t have to range a boss.
You also try to argue BM use a priority system of press an ability on CD, which has also been pointed out to you is factually wrong, while you ignore that is what almost all other specs do at this point.
As stated before, at this point I’m done with you. I’m not getting pulled back into an arguement with you again as you have added nothing new to any discussion. All of your posts are hyperbolic and have not once ever approached something as a good reason to back up what you take the time to try and explain.
Have a good day, may your life be happy, and move on, for that is what I am doing.

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I'm not trolling.

BM is by far the easiest spec.

FACTS:

- Ranged abilities
- All instant abilities. No cast time
- Simple forgiving rotation. No punishing use-order.
- Very simple AOE rotation.
- Immunity
- Very little resource management. Focus might as well not be there.
- Very simple and unforgiving CD. Bestial Wrath has a very short CD which allows you to use it with very little planning ahead.
- Pet doing a lot of auto damage.

When you COMBINE all these things it makes BM by far the easiest spec in the game.

Actually, this is too good not to respond to:
You just stated rdps does not mean harder than melee, just for BM. So you just countered yourself, again.
Yes, all instant. First decent post you’ve made, but let’s not forget melee are almost all, if not all instant. As well as most rdps have instants or some kind of ‘cqstable while moving’ spell they can use while moving that means they don’t just drop to zero damage when moving.
Factually wrong. Use abilities out of actually prioritizing how you use them affects your damage. Hence arguements about min/max potential that you gloss over all the time.
AoE simple yes, but no more than other specs. BM also changes based on number of mobs. 2-4 weave a MS between every 3-4 abilities depending on Haste while still using other abilities and keeping up FF. 5+ MS takes over priority of KC in rotation while still keeping up FF buff. Compare to other specs that, like DH, their rotation stays the same. Frost mage adds in Blizzard. Paladin replaces TV with DS. Those are just 3 specs with a much easier rotation than BM. Guess you’ll overlook those too.
Mages and Paladins both have immunities. Paladins can even give their immunities (to physical) to other people.
Just lol. Focus might as well not be there. You let me know how your next BW damge window goes when you spam CS down to 0 and then press BW.
BW CD close, but again false. When comparing to min/max, or in other words it’s greateat potential, you want at least 1 charge of FF up going into BW. There’s also wanting KC to be ready, as well as when MoC is coming off Cd as you generally would like those to line up.
Your pets auto damage also ties directly into your management of FF uptime. Thi, again, ties into your management of buffs and min/max.
When you combine all of these things it shows there is more complexity to BM than what you are trying to point out.
Just so we’re still on same page: I’ve never once stated Bm isn’t easy. It is actually a pretty easy spec; but that doesn’t mean that it’s the easiest spec in game like you want to make people believe.

[Monster Hunter]

I'm not trolling.

BM is by far the easiest spec.

FACTS:

- Ranged abilities
- All instant abilities. No cast time
- Simple forgiving rotation. No punishing use-order.
- Very simple AOE rotation.
- Immunity
- Very little resource management. Focus might as well not be there.
- Very simple and unforgiving CD. Bestial Wrath has a very short CD which allows you to use it with very little planning ahead.
- Pet doing a lot of auto damage.

When you COMBINE all these things it makes BM by far the easiest spec in the game.

Combustion, phoenix flames, fire blast, pyro, fire blast, pyro, phoenix, pyro, blast, pyro, blast, pyro, fire ball x till blast pyro. Repeat till combustion.......

Frost dk. Winter, oblit oblit oblit oblit frost strike frost strike frost strike oblit oblit oblit oblit blah blah blah edgy lord. Pop dragon.

[Wilfire]

BM needs a 5-10% flat damage increase or it will continue to be shit. Hell it would still be garbage even after a 10% flat damage buff but at least it wouldn't be rock bottom by a wide margin anymore.

[Eapoe]

BM needs a 5-10% flat damage increase or it will continue to be shit. Hell it would still be garbage even after a 10% flat damage buff but at least it wouldn't be rock bottom by a wide margin anymore.

Pretty much this. Most people in this thread don’t seem opposed to BM being bottom damage, they just don’t want to be bottom damage by such a large margin.

[Mavick]

Seriously, you should just stop replying to him. Between his/hers and Mavicks responses they are either trolling or missing the point entirely and just arguing to argue with no real point.
As was pointed out to both of them, there are multiple specs that are just as easy as BM, it not easier at this point to min/max damage and play at higher levels (read: the best BM could be played). This includes the concept that BM is indeed an easy spec.
Kaver can’t even point out to you what classes are more complex. He/she even tried using the fact that they are melee means they are harder than BM, which in turn implies that every rdps spec is easier to play than melee while negating the point he made that DH should be 2nd from lowest. Stating melee is inherently harder than a rdps means that DH should be higher than all rdps specs simply because it is melee, then states that it is so easy it should be just above BM.
As stated, he/she is either trolling or just arguing to argue with no factual evidence to back up what they are typing.

Telling me I'm missing the point when you obviously can't grasp the difference between the concepts of some subjective concept like "easy vs hard" vs a far more concrete concept of "punishing vs not nearly as punishing". If that's me "missing the point" then I'm completely happy with that if the alternative is lying to myself to say that the spec I'm playing is just as challenging and rewarding to play on a mechanical level as all the others out there. Get a fucking clue, seriously.

Edit: It's actually so laughable when I read back over your posts. You just keep repeating some vague nonsense like "I'm not saying BM isn't easy, but it's not as easy as some other specs out there". Then get butthurt when people tell you that you're really saying nothing that means anything at all.