Why do the people that enjoyed Legion not enjoy BfA?

[Fabinas]

In 14~ years of raiding I can honestly say I've never known anyone to actually be excited about giving someone else a piece of loot unless they were dating.

Enough with the Blizzard apologism about personal loot. Both @Greyscale and @SirCowdog have answered you what you should have been knowing all along, claiming you're a 14y raider, but you keep strawmanning (see: "Your loot system was what held your guild together?"). Loot distribution was one of the core things that defined guilds and, if made right, bound guilds together. Personally, i never applied to a guild with loot council and fought against its implementation when suggested, because i didn't trust it would work fairly 100%. Nowadays, because of personal loot, all guilds are the same CONCERNING THE SOLE SUBJECT OF LOOT DISTRIBUTION. Guild hopping is easier than ever. Dedication and loyalty to the guild is now a little more lax.

[Magicon]

BfA lacks the glue that bound legion together.

Many people complain about the legendary system, myself included, but it made you clear out all of your Daily caches just for a chance to get it. This is just one example, but legion systems were better interconnected IMO.

The story also does not help, since it is hitting the same story beats as MoP's. Legion story was simple, but it worked because of the over the top villain. To go from Over the top villain to grounded in reality villain is pretty jarring and unexciting.

I don't agree with the last thing you said, and i think many more disagree. I think it was time to get back on the ground and not have over the top villains. Btw, er get Aszhara which is over the top enough. You van go play a fantasy spaceship game or something. BfA is boring Just because they are lazy and have made it boring.

[xindralol]

am i misremembering or wasnt legion also considered bad until late in the xpac?

I made a toon named Legionsucks right after I got into alpha.

[lolpve]

In Legion these features were fresh and even the grind was fun for a few months. The features they added during the expansion (like mage tower) were generally popular and maintained interest. In BFA the features feel really stale and the player feels like he/she is on a hamster wheel.

[dragnipur]

One reason for me is that Legion had Mage tower and BFA doesn't have something like it.So in my book it is a cut of a popular content which the developers didn't bother adding and replacing it with the dog shit which are warfrants and island expeditions.I want a good solo content like Mage tower was.

[RoKPaNda]

Then you've never been in a good raid group that was actually a team. Sounds like you've mostly just been in groups of friends or PUGs who are kind of selfish.

Oh well, can't blame you for not understanding something you've never seen before.

I've been in some of the best raid groups in my region, thanks for the condescension though. Nobody wants someone else to get an upgrade over them. Even when you see someone pass an item to someone else the reason for that is almost always to put them into a better position to get an item that they want more. When someone passes an item to you it's not out of some selfless love and adoration for you, it's because there is something else they want more and giving you some lesser item now makes it more likely they'll get the item they actually want. It's all very self serving.

Enough with the Blizzard apologism about personal loot. Both @Greyscale and @SirCowdog have answered you what you should have been knowing all along, claiming you're a 14y raider, but you keep strawmanning (see: "Your loot system was what held your guild together?"). Loot distribution was one of the core things that defined guilds and, if made right, bound guilds together. Personally, i never applied to a guild with loot council and fought against its implementation when suggested, because i didn't trust it would work fairly 100%. Nowadays, because of personal loot, all guilds are the same CONCERNING THE SOLE SUBJECT OF LOOT DISTRIBUTION. Guild hopping is easier than ever. Dedication and loyalty to the guild is now a little more lax.

Maybe you should stop being an antiquated loot system apologist? Loot systems aren't a "core thing that defined guilds." - Loot systems have always been one of the most common points of failure and drama for a guild. Guild hopping isn't any easier because people aren't shackled to master loot - If you guild hopyou're still not going to get accepted into decent guilds. Any recruitment officer worth anything is going to do their due diligence when it comes to investigating recruit stability. The loot system doesn't change that. In all seriousness if loyalty and dedication to the guild are tied to the loot system then your guild doesn't actually have the oh so revered team mentality.

[Fabinas]

I've been in some of the best raid groups in my region, thanks for the condescension though. Nobody wants someone else to get an upgrade over them. Even when you see someone pass an item to someone else the reason for that is almost always to put them into a better position to get an item that they want more. When someone passes an item to you it's not out of some selfless love and adoration for you, it's because there is something else they want more and giving you some lesser item now makes it more likely they'll get the item they actually want. It's all very self serving.




Maybe you should stop being an antiquated loot system apologist? Loot systems aren't a "core thing that defined guilds." - Loot systems have always been one of the most common points of failure and drama for a guild. Guild hopping isn't any easier because people aren't shackled to master loot - If you guild hopyou're still not going to get accepted into decent guilds. Any recruitment officer worth anything is going to do their due diligence when it comes to investigating recruit stability. The loot system doesn't change that. In all seriousness if loyalty and dedication to the guild are tied to the loot system then your guild doesn't actually have the oh so revered team mentality.

I was kinda expecting such an answer. Who decides what is antiquated or not? You? Blizzard? I don't think so. Just because Blizzard introduced personal loot, so they can 1. minimise split runs in competing guilds, 2. avoid playing the referee on loot problems with pugs, ninjas etc, doesn't mean Loot council (which may not be my cup of tea) or any participation loot system (dkp, epgp etc) is now antiquated. Your opinion may be they are antiquated, but you're only saying that because Blizzard removed the choice from guilds and enforced the personal loot.

Of course guilds are not defined by their loot systems. But, when they were allowed (by having master loot as an in-game option), it was one of many factors that defined guilds. For some people it might have been the deciding factor, if their past experiences dictated as such.

And why should we talk about only "decent" guilds (what are those anyway? what criteria defines a "decent" guild?). The fact remains that whenever someone new joins a guild has absolutely no obligation to stay with the guild after getting the desired loot from the raids, because personal loot dictates that ITS HIS REWARD and as such, it is assigned to him. Forsaking the fact that the player was aided to get this reward by the rest of the raid.

Also, when a guild needs a new tank, healer or dps to continue raiding, they take the player. No matter what. Because that ensures the rest of the players will stay and raid and the guild won't fall apart. No sane Guild leader or council is going to reject a guild hopper if it means they will lose more raiding night and by that, more players. Diligence in choosing new raid members can't ALWAYS be the deciding factor, especially on content drought and low player retention times.

When master loot and the chosen by each raid loot system existed, each new player not only had to prove his worthiness to the guild, but to show good faith by agreeing not having a priority in the combined raid loot before the oldest members. Personal loot removes that as well. Staying in 2 or 4 or 10 raids doesn't ensure loyalty anymore. The player is trained to think that the game awarded him loot for his own achievements and not because of a combined effort, as a part of a team.

[Zantera]

I loved Legion (one of my favorite expacs), I don't dislike BFA but it's more in the middle of the xpacs for me. I think what OP misses a bit (at least from opinions i've heard from friends) is that doing the same thing again doesn't necessarily mean it will turn out the same. Legion introduced m+ and BFA also has m+ but IMO m+ were much more enjoyable in Legion because of 3 affixes instead of 4, and low keys didn't feel annoying because of fortified/tyrannical. Other players I've heard have said "m+ is still good but it's not new anymore".

Think of it like a movie sequel that tries to do what the first movie did but it ends up feeling less exciting because you've been there before.

[peter92q]

I enjoyed both. I've enjoyed every single expansion. What's my secret? I was never emotionally attached to some children's roleplaying game. My hero is there, he can slice up bad guys, that's all I need.

[Bigby]

The classes I play aren't fun anymore. I was able to slog through even WoD because I enjoyed my FDK. Not so in BfA.

[Voidwielder]

This is also something I don't understand.

BfA a just a reskinned Legion, yet Legion is still considered as a good expansion.

There was a lot to do in Legion. And it felt new, fresh and somewhat exciting. We were dealing with new bits of lore in the Valarjar zone, then we were dealing with a unique storyline in a zone entirely dedicated to it and then we were dealing with Legion itself. Seriously, where is the Suramar of BfA? The best thing about the questing experience in Legion and they failed to learn from it? Couldn't even be bothered to copy it... and no, War Campaign is not equivalent to that. The OH class quests are comparable in their length to War Campaign. Besides, all 12 OH class quests were unique, with unique bits of lore. War Campaign is the same for everyone - it's separated by faction, not classes.

Some of the profession quests were overdesigned, but they kept people busy. There was a stream of content that had a depth. By this point in Legion life cycle we already had a megadungeon in the form of Karazhan, three boss raid and we were about to enter NH.

Plus the two big selling points of BfA are just bad - IEs and Warfronts. They are dull, boring, tedious.

[ali725]

i did enjoy legion and BFA but i quit for a while anyway because it was basically same thing imo. Not interested in AI content and i probably just needed a break from all the WQ grinding.

[MrLachyG]

Me, personally have not enjoyed this game in a LONG time. I believe it has been bad since WotLK. I am, however, confused why people seem to love Legion and hate BfA.

Let's compare BfA to Legion for a moment:
It has the same dungeon systems
It has the same mythic+ systems
It has the same raiding systems
It has the same looting systems
It has the same PvP gearing system
It has the same PvP rank system
It has the same world quest system
It has the same titanforging system

It has, in my opinion, actually has improved PvP gear mattering, added Conquest points and made PvP combat better than Legion.
It has, in my opinion, an improved world, music and quest system.

My understanding has been that a lot of people concidered Legion as "best expansion ever" and that those same people (could be wrong) conciders BfA as the "worst expansion ever".

Assuming Blizzard beleved you guys, and Legion was actually the best WoW has ever been. What exectly is so much worse in BfA than Legion?

Was it the Legendary system of Legion what made it so good?
Was it the Artifact weapon - "you do content to get transmog for your artifact weapon" - what made Legion so good?
Was the classes in Legion that much more fun than in BfA?

The only things left to blame is the NEW systems. Namely
1. Azerite Armor system
2. Island Expeditions
3. War mode
4. Warfront

Blizzard seem to be in the same boat as you guys, they look at Legion as the greatest expansion ever. So they only compare Legion to BfA in order to "fix the game". They spend all their energy on the above 4 systems...

If they "fix" all these systems, do you honestly think the game will suddenly be fun?

only thing i would add is that it has actually expanded on mythic+ with different seasons and different final affixes

[Elias01]

One reason for me is that Legion had Mage tower and BFA doesn't have something like it.So in my book it is a cut of a popular content which the developers didn't bother adding and replacing it with the dog shit which are warfrants and island expeditions.I want a good solo content like Mage tower was.

Funny how most exclusive content in Legion expansion was more praised feature. Feature what goes compeltly againts Blizzard philosophy of accessability.

[Osmeric]

Funny how most exclusive content in Legion expansion was more praised feature. Feature what goes compeltly againts Blizzard philosophy of accessability.

Lesson you should have learned long ago: praise on the forums need not reflect general customer sentiment. The consequences of listening to the whole "make WoW harder!" line going into Cataclysm should have been a clue.

[MidnyteTV]

Getting rid of ML for guilds. That alone will not contribute to guilds surviving and will eventually turn wow raiding into Pugs with a few hundred mythic guilds.

[Kokolums]

Lesson you should have learned long ago: praise on the forums need not reflect general customer sentiment. The consequences of listening to the whole "make WoW harder!" line going into Cataclysm should have been a clue.

They've made WoW easier and easier and subs keep falling.

[lolbubble]

Lets take one of both expansion's (many) selling points.

Legion: Artifact weapons

BFA: Azerite system

Would you say these two systems are equal? This is why.

[Armourboy]

I think a lot can be said about some of this content just being new for Legion, but I think a bug factor for BfA is that some of it feels like a stripped down/worse system than what was in Legion.

The artifact weapon system made sense, unlocking the potential of a legendary weapon makes sense, soaking up crap in a necklace just so you can use your gear is a much less elegant system.

WQ's and Mythic+ were new, but by the end of Legion lots of people were tired of them. Myself I was just done with the timer system that is Mythic+ and haven't done a single one in BfA. If you want something to be hard then make it hard, stop with this go go go as the means to difficulty.

I think also with them removing unique sets, tier bonuses and other things, well there is little motivation to do some of these things.

Classes are dull and I'll be the first to admit I liked the fact that on DW classes in Legion you finally didn't need to get lucky with upgrading two weapons.

[PaladinBash]

Ret's made shittier through lack of artifact and legendary combos. Undeniably unfun and shittier.