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  1. #1
    Merely a Setback Adam Jensen's Avatar
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    Venezuela's Collapse was not due to socialism

    Venezuela collapsed due to corruption and mismanagement, not socialism.

    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/heres...154605494.html

    The political positions of American politicians frequently described as "socialist" either by themselves or by their detractors, such as Warren, Sanders, and AOC, are not the same political positions that lead to Venezuela's downfall. Most of their platforms are based on socialist or welfare policies of first world nations. The reforms these people want have been successful in many first world nations where they've been implemented.

    Furthermore, none of them want a full conversion to socailism. Democratic Socialist Bernie Sanders himself stated in no unclear terms that he wants to keep the means of production in the US private. They all want a capitalist system. But they want reasonable fetters on the system so the middle and lower classes are protected by the abuse of greedy corporations.

    So can we please stop with the comparisons to Venezuela, which fell apart due to corruption and not socialism? No one wants to emulate Venezuela, not even Venezuelans.

    There are valid criticisms against AOC, Warren or Sanders, but kneejerk comparisons to Venezuela are just stupid.

    The top answer on this stack exchange explains it well:

    https://politics.stackexchange.com/q...e-of-socialism

    Although many political candidates in the United States are now self-identifying as "Democratic Socialist," they tend to model their principals after Nordic Model Social Democracy. Social Democracy and Democratic Socialism are somewhat close in many ways, but Social Democracy is a bit more like a well-taxed Capitalist economy with social benefits; whereas Democratic Socialism has more government control over the economy, property and institutions are more public than private, and there are more elements of a decentralized planned economy.
    Democratic Socialists look to the Nordic model, not the Soviet model. Democratic socialists reject authoritarianism and reject the seizure of private enterprise, both of which were instrumental in Venezuela's collapse.

    It is pure dishonesty and ignorance to claim that the policies of democratic socialists will lead the US the way of Venezuela.
    Putin khuliyo

  2. #2
    AOC literally released a document which stated that her green new deal will be funded by what is essentially priting money. Im sorry, but I dont buy their bullshit.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    It is pure dishonesty and ignorance to claim that the policies of democratic socialists will lead the US the way of Venezuela.
    Yes, we've discussed on this form ad infinitum how socialists pursuing socialist policies and then collapsing can't possibly be due to socialism. Did you bother to read the Green New Deal document that everyone is lauding? The government control needed to put that in place makes Venezuela look like a capitalist paradise.

  4. #4
    Banned JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Its also stupid because Bernie/AoC are Soc Dems and Warren is a liberal.
    Comparing them to any socialist country has always been silly.

  5. #5
    https://www.foxnews.com/world/what-s...chavez-crusade

    Fox news said they weren't socialist though.
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  6. #6
    This all stems from a misuse of definitions. Venezuela's collapse was because they shifted to a socialist economy that was indeed corrupt and mismanaged. You can't mismanage a capitalist economy because no one manages a capitalist economy.

    That is not to say that leftists in the West want Venezuelan socialism, they want the Nordic model. The Nordic model is not socialist though. There is a difference between democratic socialism and social democracy. Socialism always entails the government controlling the means of production but that is not what Nordic countries do (they actually privatize many things which are publicly owned in the US) and that is not what most leftists in the West actually want. They want higher taxes, more regulations, and welfare programs but that has nothing to do with the means of production. South American leftists are actually the ones that call themselves democratic socialists because they want government control. When leftists in the US and Europe call themselves this, they are mostly just misusing the term.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Lot's of thing wrong in here:

    1. Those politicians are social democrats, which are basically capitalists who want to introduce rules to make it more manageable.
    2. Democratic Socialism is a "new" term. It's basically social democracy but they don't want to use the name because the working class knows that social democrats fucked them over in Europe.
    This is true.

  7. #7
    Bloodsail Admiral Ooid's Avatar
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    Nah man it's just that True Socialism™ hasn't been done yet.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    The Nordic Model?
    Like Norway has?
    Like.. nationalised oil and high taxes to support welfare?
    Wrong again. I'm unsure how many times you have to be told that facts are different before you actually notice.

    Norway have partially privatized their oil (currently called Equinor), while Venezuela fully nationalized their oil industry. One company improved by the change, one went the other way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    And nationalising every single big industry is exactly what many socialists want. Because that is what socialism means.
    And that's what Venezuela did. There exists a minor socialist party in Norway - but it is small and largely irrelevant.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Simplemente Feliz View Post
    AOC literally released a document which stated that her green new deal will be funded by what is essentially priting money. Im sorry, but I dont buy their bullshit.
    Jesus you people are fucking stupid. The government has been doing that since 2008. So has every other civilized nation.

    It is fucking painful to have to listen to individuals who are so ignorant and slow, it is like watching old people eat.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Socialism always entails the government controlling the means of production but that is not what Nordic countries ][/COLOR]
    No. Socialism is a generic term used to describe any form of political system based around the concept of society.

    What you are talking about is Marxism and its derivations. There are many non-Marxist forms of socialism.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    This all stems from a misuse of definitions. Venezuela's collapse was because they shifted to a socialist economy that was indeed corrupt and mismanaged. You can't mismanage a capitalist economy because no one manages a capitalist economy.

    That is not to say that leftists in the West want Venezuelan socialism, they want the Nordic model. The Nordic model is not socialist though. There is a difference between democratic socialism and social democracy. Socialism always entails the government controlling the means of production but that is not what Nordic countries do (they actually privatize many things which are publicly owned in the US) and that is not what most leftists in the West actually want. They want higher taxes, more regulations, and welfare programs but that has nothing to do with the means of production. South American leftists are actually the ones that call themselves democratic socialists because they want government control. When leftists in the US and Europe call themselves this, they are mostly just misusing the term.
    Mostly true, but there are some socialist in US and Europe, and they have cheered for Venezuela (some still do).

    Mostly the parties have less than 10% of the votes - but extremists are often more visible.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    Democratic Socialists look to the Nordic model, not the Soviet model. Democratic socialists reject authoritarianism and reject the seizure of private enterprise, both of which were instrumental in Venezuela's collapse.
    Then tell those politicians to stop using the term "democratic socialism" - the Nordic countries have social democrats (and minor democratic socialist parties that are mostly irrelevant).

    It's really simple: if they want to follow a model the first part would be to actually study how it works, so they actually know what they are talking about - if they believe it is called "democratic socialism" they have clearly not done that.

    And technically the Nordic countries are "welfare states" - and are not necessarily governed by social democrats. Currently three of the Nordic countries have centre-right governments with support from anti-immigration/nationalist parties.
    Last edited by Forogil; 2019-02-09 at 10:31 PM. Reason: No double negation

  12. #12
    Scarab Lord Zaydin's Avatar
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    Venezuelas issues are a combination of authoritarianism, rampant corruption and failing to diversify their economy, since they put all their eggs in one basket hedging on oil prices staying high.
    "If you are ever asking yourself 'Is Trump lying or is he stupid?', the answer is most likely C: All of the Above" - Seth Meyers

  13. #13
    Merely a Setback Adam Jensen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    Then tell those politicians to stop using the term "democratic socialism" - the Nordic countries have social democrats (and minor democratic socialist parties that are mostly irrelevant).

    It's really simple: if they want to follow a model the first part would be to actually study how it works, so they actually know what they are talking about - if they believe it is called "democratic socialism" they have clearly not done that.

    And technically the Nordic countries are "welfare states" - and are not necessarily governed by social democrats. Currently three of the Nordic countries have centre-right governments with support from anti-immigration/nationalist parties.
    I think that's a fair statement to make, a lot of the confusion does arise from the misuse of labels.

    I just think its ridiculous to think that people like Sanders or AOC want to follow in Venezuela's footsteps, or to think that their ideas will lead us in that direction.
    Putin khuliyo

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    I think that's a fair statement to make, a lot of the confusion does arise from the misuse of labels.

    I just think its ridiculous to think that people like Sanders or AOC want to follow in Venezuela's footsteps, or to think that their ideas will lead us in that direction.
    Especially since we're much more diversified in terms of resources, and have a much broader potential revenue base.
    "We must make our choice. We may have democracy, or we may have wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both."
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  15. #15
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    There are tons of capitalist nations around the globe that have risen and fallen, and you don't hear a peep out of anyone about how capitalism failed them. Why? Because just like Venezuela, it wasn't the economic system that caused the country to fail. It's always other factors. The fact that the people who masturbate while thinking about capitalism point to Venezuela as the one single "proof" that socialism doesn't work shows just how desperate they are for any kind of example.
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    This all stems from a misuse of definitions. Venezuela's collapse was because they shifted to a socialist economy that was indeed corrupt and mismanaged. You can't mismanage a capitalist economy because no one manages a capitalist economy.
    Google "oligarchy".

    That is not to say that leftists in the West want Venezuelan socialism, they want the Nordic model. The Nordic model is not socialist though. There is a difference between democratic socialism and social democracy. Socialism always entails the government controlling the means of production but that is not what Nordic countries do (they actually privatize many things which are publicly owned in the US) and that is not what most leftists in the West actually want.
    Socialism doesn't require government control of capital specifically. It can, but the idea is generally to put it under the control of society at large (hence, the term "socialism"). There are other ways of going about this.
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  17. #17
    People will blame socialism because they're too dumb to understand the impact of monetary policy, or what monetary policy is all together. Venezuela spent on completely ancillary projects that were basically patronage for favored parties (corruption, essentially), and made no effort to offset this expenditure. Instead they just printed bolivars and sent them out the door, and faith in any semblance of steady value in their currency collapsed.
    Last edited by Polyxo; 2019-02-10 at 09:22 AM.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    I think that's a fair statement to make, a lot of the confusion does arise from the misuse of labels.

    I just think its ridiculous to think that people like Sanders or AOC want to follow in Venezuela's footsteps, or to think that their ideas will lead us in that direction.
    Well, I don't think that Chavez planned that Venezuela would get into this mess. (I'm unsure if Maduro has any plans.) Chavez got popular because he actually reduced poverty, even though that in part was possible because he just took the money from the oil company without investing for the future - and was lucky with oil prices increasing under his watch. (Oil prices are still high compared to when Chavez was first elected.)

    AOC is still member of Democratic Socialists of America, whereas Sanders is not.

    It is possible that she doesn't understand their policies, or have been fooled by them - but Democratic Socialists of America want socialism.
    They claim they want more worker cooperatives than state-owned companies - but still socialism; and certainly not the Nordic model.

    To further clarify the difference: most (all?) Nordic social democratic parties have left SI (Socialist International) due to its lack of democracy etc, and instead (together with DNC) joined "Progressive Alliance". Democratic Socialist of America left SI because they viewed it as neo-liberal.

  19. #19
    Herald of the Titans CostinR's Avatar
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    When politicians embrace the term "socialist" they better be ready for the rightful amount of backlash that comes from it, and as others pointed out the Nordic countries aren't socialist countries.
    "Life is one long series of problems to solve. The more you solve, the better a man you become.... Tribulations spawn in life and over and over again we must stand our ground and face them."

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    It's almost as if Norway doesn't have tons of sanctions and an opposition that is trying to overthrow the government and waging economic warfare to make it happen.
    Perhaps because Venezuela has 50 times as much oil as Norway?
    Is that your way of admitting that you were wrong, and Norway partially privatized their oil industry while Venezuela fully nationalized theirs?

    Both produce about the same amount of oil each year.

    And for the record you are confusing cause and effect: Venezuela got into economic problems before the sanctions - because they failed to maintain their oil industry and were running the wells dry due to incompetence. (Capitalists might be bad at long-term thinking, but Venezuelan socialists where miles ahead in terms of incompetence.) That led to worse economic mismanagement, which in turn led to economic sanctions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    No, that is not what Venezuela did.
    Venezuela only expropriated ONE single industry, not everything.
    The Socialist regime of the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela also intervened in other industries, and apart from that the oil industry is kind of important in a country where it is responsible for >90% of exports.

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