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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by burzian View Post
    Uh, no? You gotta read these posts before you reply to them, friend. I don't even write like that!

    Seriously though, where did I say Warfronts would always suck and couldn't be improved by a complete overhaul? I didn't. Thanks for the reminder about Islands, another feature that doesn't suck quite as much as this one.
    At best lets just leave it at cross purposes where we maybe on the same page but our points differ slightly

  2. #162
    If AFK-fronts are the future of WoW, looks like I'll be done.

    They are the most boring, lamest thing in WoW, right up there with the shitastic Garrisons, and fuck fest Island Expeditions.

    Having to acquire ore and lumber, zzz...wake me up please. And not fighting real players from the other Faction, but only bots, it's not PvP, it's PvE trying to be a fake PvP. Zero excitement, just paint by dots.

    Best end game feature in BfA is still Mythic+ dungeon runs. For taking less time than a AFK-front run, and you get better gear, and it's actually very engaging and exciting.
    Last edited by Zorachus; 2019-02-13 at 07:16 PM.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by burzian View Post
    Uh, no? You gotta read these posts before you reply to them, friend. I don't even write like that!

    Seriously though, where did I say Warfronts would always suck and couldn't be improved by a complete overhaul? I didn't. Thanks for the reminder about Islands, another feature that doesn't suck quite as much as this one.
    Cross purposes again?

    You see when you have a thread that looks like pure weapons grade toxic trollgrade uranium but when you peel off the hyperbole you actually start to see that maybe OP has a point.

    Ive said countless times in this thread that warfronts can and should be improved upon and that me starting this thread is a signal that i dont want to see warfronts die.

  4. #164
    Titan Wildberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Two Factor View Post
    Do you actually know what a seige is?
    I'm well aware of what a siege is. Not only do they not manage to capture that feeling properly, but sieges really aren't conducive to interesting gameplay anyway.

    The only way "Siege" gameplay is fun is if the boring parts of historical sieges are cut, with the compelling bits kept in. Warfronts do the exact opposite. It's all the tedium of a siege without the actual feeling of one.

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Wildberry View Post
    I'm well aware of what a siege is. Not only do they not manage to capture that feeling properly, but sieges really aren't conducive to interesting gameplay anyway.

    The only way "Siege" gameplay is fun is if the boring parts of historical sieges are cut, with the compelling bits kept in. Warfronts do the exact opposite. It's all the tedium of a siege without the actual feeling of one.
    Well shoot off some ideas on how you can capture that feeling and how warfronts can be improved upon.

    Trust me Blizz needs the ideas now!!

  6. #166
    Another way to gear alts fast to, other then lfr there isn't a lockout.

  7. #167
    If Warfronts are the greatest idea in BFA, then no wonder I've quit. They were better when you could AFK in them and go do something that was actually fun.

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Two Factor View Post
    Warfronts is the greatest idea in BfA
    The idea is fine. In theory. I wouldn't mind warfronts if they were just... better.

    My biggest issue is I don't like pugs. But the system doesn't let me queue with my guild. It's not even a difficult thing to implement.

    Second issue is they're too linear. You should be able to get some choices on what to build, like any RTS. If I want to build 10 Barracks and make a hundred Marines (like in Starcraft) that should be my choice to make. But currently you need the siege weapons and everything else doesn't matter, but you're still forced to build everything in order just so you can build the next thing.

    Third is they're too easy. The first time I entered a warfront I was already strong enough to beat packs of 20 enemies at a time, and solo an elite commander. So building soldiers is uneccesary. The logical way to make the building portion matter is to have enemies that you can't defeat if you don't build an army. What we have right now doesn't feel like an army, more like a bunch of unorganized overpowered mercenaries sweeping through the land.

  9. #169
    Titan Wildberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Two Factor View Post
    Well shoot off some ideas on how you can capture that feeling and how warfronts can be improved upon.

    Trust me Blizz needs the ideas now!!
    I'd argue that Warfronts need to be rethought entirely, and if they're rebuilt at all, they shouldn't resemble "Warfronts 1.0" at all.

    The concept, on its face, was doomed to fail.

    They really seem to like the idea that Warfronts simulate the RTS experience. They don't. There's no potential strategies to be made around build order, no "either, or" choices that vary depending on the situation, etc.

    Even if players could donate to every building from the start, that wouldn't really change much. For starters, the only strat would be to build the Workshop and get 3 demos ASAP while ignoring everything else.

    Secondly, even ignoring that warfronts aren't dynamic enough to warrant different strategies, individual impact on donations is so small that if there were options, we'd likely see a snowball effect remove even the illusion of player impact.

    The only way I can see to make "Build order" and unit composition matter is to make them PvP, and even that's likely to fail. PvE Warfronts though? There's no possible way to make build order matter.

    So right from the start, the idea that they're a love letter to the RTS needs to be scrapped. It sounds nice as a talking point, but it's failed in practice and doesn't even work in theory.

    So if we're scrapping something as foundational as that, we only find ourselves with more questions. How long should these last? What is the purpose of resources? etc.

    Really, I can't come up with ideas to improve upon warfronts, because the problems are foundational. Any attempt to "fix" warfronts requires addressing things such as target audience, intended length, reward structure, etc.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Wildberry View Post
    I'd argue that Warfronts need to be rethought entirely, and if they're rebuilt at all, they shouldn't resemble "Warfronts 1.0" at all.

    The concept, on its face, was doomed to fail.

    They really seem to like the idea that Warfronts simulate the RTS experience. They don't. There's no potential strategies to be made around build order, no "either, or" choices that vary depending on the situation, etc.

    Even if players could donate to every building from the start, that wouldn't really change much. For starters, the only strat would be to build the Workshop and get 3 demos ASAP while ignoring everything else.

    Secondly, even ignoring that warfronts aren't dynamic enough to warrant different strategies, individual impact on donations is so small that if there were options, we'd likely see a snowball effect remove even the illusion of player impact.

    The only way I can see to make "Build order" and unit composition matter is to make them PvP, and even that's likely to fail. PvE Warfronts though? There's no possible way to make build order matter.

    So right from the start, the idea that they're a love letter to the RTS needs to be scrapped. It sounds nice as a talking point, but it's failed in practice and doesn't even work in theory.

    So if we're scrapping something as foundational as that, we only find ourselves with more questions. How long should these last? What is the purpose of resources? etc.

    Really, I can't come up with ideas to improve upon warfronts, because the problems are foundational. Any attempt to "fix" warfronts requires addressing things such as target audience, intended length, reward structure, etc.
    Well you bring up some interesting points and you mention the only strat being build the workshop like other side cant destroy demos or rebuild the towers?.

    You see if this was done right the other side would hit you with certain mobs at certain places and they too would repair and send out boss mobs for you to challenge.

    You say how long should this take and well AV used to last for days but lets scrap that and realise this could last hours which is pretty much a raid night.

    There is nothing wrong with having something that takes a while that takes and requires coordination.

  11. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Two Factor View Post
    Well you bring up some interesting points and you mention the only strat being build the workshop like other side cant destroy demos or rebuild the towers?.
    Why would they rebuild towers? Once they're down, it's 90% Over.

    With regard to destroying Demos, if we're still using Towers as the timegate for Warfronts, after the first week of badness, players would know to guard Demolishers.

    You say how long should this take and well AV used to last for days but lets scrap that and realise this could last hours which is pretty much a raid night.
    When typing the prior post, I almost included a bit about scrapping them, and turning them into a large Old AV, in the sense that they last for days. Obviously, this would require blending the "Outdoor Daily Area" with the "Warfront Scenario" and tying the cyclical reward to "Completing X Objectives" rather than "Winning," but I think that is really the only possible configuration of Warfronts that could work.

    Obviously, they'd need their own achievements, a zone-wide currency system that incentivizes staying in beyond the weekly (potential for 340, 370 and cosmetic rewards), etc.

    The entire thing would need to be structured more like a sandbox. Resource acquisition and spending would have to be reworked. The former needs to be more engaging, the latter needs to offer meaningful choices and a tangible individual impact.

    I went into a little more detail, but the reason I ended up deleting it, is because ultimately "Warfront Suggestions" as radical as that are pointless. Before Blizzard can actually work out a good iteration of Warfronts, they need to realize that certain concepts of theirs (RTS build orders) really don't translate into MMOs that well, and answer who the content is for and what it should look like.

    I might actually enjoy an AV-style, sandbox warfront with farmable currencies. It's the only way I can see them being "fun" while "impossible to lose outright." Unfortunately, that conception requires a sacrifice of certain elements that Blizzard apparently wants to capture with Warfronts.

  12. #172
    Warfronts are just glorified world bosses at the moment.. to make them interesting they would have to probably be a 5 man-> 10 man flex thing you can do with friends with more encounters than only 1 final boss to be an alternative to 5 man dungeons.

    That's the niche right there, there is no content for groups from 5 to 10.

    Right now it's not a time well invested for gearing up versus a dungeon that will give you more loot.. except the weekly of course.

    Makes you wonder why they just didn't go the full mythic+ way with warfronts... seems to be that would have been a candidate for the "mythic+" system for let's say 10 people. Heroic is coming I know, but seems to me like a missed opportunity to keep them relevant.

  13. #173
    Blademaster Cena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Two Factor View Post
    Warfronts is the greatest idea in BfA

    I make no bones this is the only feature i do right now but lets talk about this to its bear bones.

    How many times in WoW have you felt being a part of a sieging army fighting against a castle?

    How many times did you feel you was fighting in a huge army fighting across a real battle field that wasnt pvp based?

    Warfronts is awesome and certainly they are easy now cause this is just the first implementation of it but tell me this cant be improved upon?

    We can have pvp warfront battles like this where we need to gather real resources where that actually matters and where battles might take more than 30 minutes.

    We can have scaling sets of difficulty where with AI tech the other side dont derp but can actually check your moves and if your king or queen (i know they aint that but we all know what i mean) dies it means the end and you need to reset to start over for good rewards that mean something.

    Islands expeditions has been a bust but warfronts is truly a feature where i truly felt i was fighting a war and i want to see more of this not just more raids with bosses just waiting to be raped.

    Warfronts are the future of WOW
    You are entitled to your opinion, but as far as warfronts goes, I think it can be better. Right now I feel warfronts are not fun and is a complete joke. The enemy ai is so dumbed down and even the most useless and dogshit players can go in there and win and get a free 400 gear. You can't even lose a warfront even if you tried. If the heroic warfronts are more challenging where it requires teamwork, coordination and strategizing then i'll say that its a success.

    And tbh I don't know why they haven't released the heroic version already. Delaying it is a waste of time. They should have released both modes when they launched the warfronts since day 1.
    Last edited by Cena; 2019-02-14 at 01:45 AM.

  14. #174
    I like the concept and I prefer the play style of Darkshore over Highlands but what would be perfect for me would be Darkshore play style with Highland resource gathering. Hell put it on a timer where if you beat the timer with the random group you get better reward.
    Me thinks Chromie has a whole lot of splaining to do!

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Two Factor View Post
    Warfronts is the greatest idea in BfA

    I make no bones this is the only feature i do right now but lets talk about this to its bear bones.

    How many times in WoW have you felt being a part of a sieging army fighting against a castle?

    How many times did you feel you was fighting in a huge army fighting across a real battle field that wasnt pvp based?

    Warfronts is awesome and certainly they are easy now cause this is just the first implementation of it but tell me this cant be improved upon?

    We can have pvp warfront battles like this where we need to gather real resources where that actually matters and where battles might take more than 30 minutes.

    We can have scaling sets of difficulty where with AI tech the other side dont derp but can actually check your moves and if your king or queen (i know they aint that but we all know what i mean) dies it means the end and you need to reset to start over for good rewards that mean something.

    Islands expeditions has been a bust but warfronts is truly a feature where i truly felt i was fighting a war and i want to see more of this not just more raids with bosses just waiting to be raped.

    Warfronts are the future of WOW
    If they were really good, people would do them for little or no reward. I would be interested to see who actually does them if the crazy OP gear was taken away

  16. #176
    Herald of the Titans Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Two Factor View Post
    Did you not see the title or even read what i said?

    Warfronts is a new idea newly implemented and it certainly can be improved upon and like i said its the best feature in BfA.

    I love Warfronts cause its a feture where its pvp but i feel like iam part of a army and not just another adventurer or commander or whatever.

    The point of this thread is to say to Blizz Warfronts is a good idea but it does need to be improved upon and it deserves to stay like raiding, pvp and pet battles.
    Warfronts might have been interesting, I'd even say that they are the only true innovation in BfA. But their current implementation sucks dinosaur balls.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mazinger-Z View Post
    Class design [in BfA] is the rickety bridge upon which it all lays, but the rest of it are the arthritic elephants with irritable bowel syndrome trying to cross it.

  17. #177
    At this point, i am FAR more interested in PvNPC bg's. I mean im not saying they will be great, im just saying they seem more interesting to me. If i wanted to lay siege to a castle i would play warcraft.

  18. #178
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    I like the idea of Warfronts but like a lot of Blizzard stuff their first pass at it misses some obvious things that would have made them more interesting to run on a regular basis.

    The only question now is whether or not Blizzard will iterate on them or throw them out at the end of the expansion. I get frustrated with Blizzard a lot about this. It's like they start this stuff and never finish it before abandoning it.

    Same thing happened with garrisons which could have been the basis for a nice housing/building mini-game. But, abandoned. There's lot of other examples. Professions, so help me, are another. It would be great if there were more fleshed-out and mature things in the game instead just a few things that stick around for an expansion and then are trashed after you've run them to infinity and beyond.

    I think Ion might be OK with this if it were pushed from below. But they seem to be too in love with new ideas lately to let any of the recent ones mature.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2019-02-14 at 03:26 AM.
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