Garrote + vanish

[xmx]

Hey guys, so, should i hold vendetta for vanish + garrote after opener? i would have to hold vendetta for 30 seconds or so. Is it worth? (thats with the garrote azerite trait)

[Pikay]

I'd say only, if the fight is short enough that you will only use one Vendetta. If you would lose another one later in the fight because you're holding one, that would imo be a huge damage loss.

[Eazy]

Why not using Vendetta during the opener?

[Pikay]

Why not using Vendetta during the opener?

In my understanding he meant later on during the fight. Ofc a proper opener contains Vendetta (see http://www.ravenholdt.net/assassination-guide/)

[Eazy]

In my understanding he meant later on during the fight. Ofc a proper opener contains Vendetta (see http://www.ravenholdt.net/assassination-guide/)

Yeah, didn't notice it.

OT:
I think it isn't good holding >30s Vendetta just for the Garrote. Especially if you could have a chance for another one before the end of the fight.

[Narzok]

never hold vendetta if you miss a use that way, unless your group struggles with a dps check where holding CDs is needed (jaina Icewall)
you should rather hold your vanish for the next vendetta.

EDIT:
to take full advantage of vanish you need around 6 seconds, assuming you use subterfuge. 3 GCDs inside the subterfuge window and 2-3 GCD to capitalize on the increased CPs you generated.
so you can use vendetta with 22 seconds CD on vanish and still get full benefit.
i don't know if current snapshotting caries vendetta on Dots, so you might loose out on some dmg when applying a buffed Garrote at a point where it ticks after vendetta ends.

[Coldkil]

Yeah, best situation is to stack cooldows - however it all depends if you're going to lose a Vendetta usage or not. If not, then it's fine to delay.

[McFuu]

Depends on the fight, but the general answer is if you are holding any cool down for more that 5-10 seconds it's a dps loss.

I'm assuming you are using the Ravenholdt opener, why are you holding vanish so long that it's 30 sec removed from vendetta? At most it would be 12 secs, and that's just counting gcds inbetween vendetta and vanish.

I don't use this opener so I'm not sure how it lines up.

[Rixxis]

Depends on the fight, but the general answer is if you are holding any cool down for more that 5-10 seconds it's a dps loss.

I mean, what kind of advice is this? Just say nothing at all if you're going to make arbitrary claims.
Holding a cooldown to line up with other CDs is optimal if you don't miss another usage of it, assuming there is no increased boss damage taken phase.
This means you look at your boss kill time and figure out the maximum usages of Vendetta in that kill time. For example if you take exactly 4 mins to kill Grong:

Vendetta at ~3secs
Vendetta again at ~2:03

You will not get another Vendetta in the fight no matter what because the boss has died before the minimum time it takes for it to come off Cooldown. So in a scenario where your guild uses Bloodlust at 3 mins into the fight you absolutely should save your Vendetta 1 min because you lose nothing by holding the CD, you will never get another one anyways.

If your Grong kill time is 5 minutes, that means you will get a max of 3 Vendettas. So you will want to use it at pull, 2 mins, and 4 mins even though you miss out on the bloodlusted Vendetta, missing an entire Vendetta is much worse. But let's say there's a boss like Fetid who takes double damage during your lust phase - it will then make sense to delay your Vendetta and get 1 less to use it during that massive DPS phase.

Don't listen to people who tell you arbitrary times to pop CDs. Use your brain and figure out how many of a CD you can use during a fight and then optimize the timings to either squeeze in as many as you can or when it will have the most efficacy.

[McFuu]

I mean, what kind of advice is this? Just say nothing at all if you're going to make arbitrary claims.
Holding a cooldown to line up with other CDs is optimal if you don't miss another usage of it, assuming there is no increased boss damage taken phase.
This means you look at your boss kill time and figure out the maximum usages of Vendetta in that kill time. For example if you take exactly 4 mins to kill Grong:

Vendetta at ~3secs
Vendetta again at ~2:03

You will not get another Vendetta in the fight no matter what because the boss has died before the minimum time it takes for it to come off Cooldown. So in a scenario where your guild uses Bloodlust at 3 mins into the fight you absolutely should save your Vendetta 1 min because you lose nothing by holding the CD, you will never get another one anyways.

If your Grong kill time is 5 minutes, that means you will get a max of 3 Vendettas. So you will want to use it at pull, 2 mins, and 4 mins even though you miss out on the bloodlusted Vendetta, missing an entire Vendetta is much worse. But let's say there's a boss like Fetid who takes double damage during your lust phase - it will then make sense to delay your Vendetta and get 1 less to use it during that massive DPS phase.

Don't listen to people who tell you arbitrary times to pop CDs. Use your brain and figure out how many of a CD you can use during a fight and then optimize the timings to either squeeze in as many as you can or when it will have the most efficacy.

I'm literally saying.... you are quoting me say ... "it depends on the fight"......

We weren't discussing a specific fight, simply if he should hold vendetta for 30 seconds to line up with vanish. In the purest sense of dps, the answer is no, it's a dps loss.
We aren't talking first boss uldir where 2 minute vendetta will line up with add phase... There wasn't a specific question asked, so the answer is arbitrary because the question is.

[mojusk]

i usually delay vendetta, to use it together with vanish, theres no 100% correct answer, but it works out in my favor, most of the time, and it would be my short answer.

long answer:

CD usage depends on many factors.
how long is the fight?
when do you use hero/lust?
do you get other buffs during the fight? (opulence gems)
are there any adds, how many, how long are they alive, are they a prio target?
when is your damage most needed?
etc.

lets take mythic grong.
he enrages after 6 mins, most kills are done within 5-6 mins. but most first kills are usually right before the 6min enrage. which means you will only get to use 3 vendettas.
good news is that it gives us alot of wiggle room for when to use the 3 vendettas.
my guild use hero/lust right after 2nd set of adds dies, which is around 3 mins. so i chose to delay my 2nd vendetta for that, and then the 3rd after the 3rd set adds dies (after 5mins).
i dont use vanish together with vendetta, i use it on adds instead. we need to kill add 1 then add 2. so i put 1 garrote on "2", then 1 on "1" and then back to "2" to prolong the garrote. then back to "1" to finish it of.
why dont i use vendetta on adds then? well add 1 dies before a full vendetta duration. i could be a dps whore and use vendetta on add 2 and focus my dps on that, eventhough add 1 is prio. but im a good boy!
also if i use vendetta on adds, it wont be ready for hero/lust.
is it worth using vanish on adds instead of boss in combination with vendetta and 1 hero/lust? im 99.9% sure it is.

sorry if that was confusing, i tried to give you my thought process of CD management on a boss.

some bosses you cant plan your CDs, because of mechanics. you just kinda have to adapt and improvise and hope for the best.
are your CDS ready? here, have a bomb that you need to run away and hide behind a wall with. did that CD delay cause you to be unable to squeeze in a last CD at the end of the fight, as you planned in your spreadsheet? sucks to be you boy!