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  1. #1

    Prot warrior pushing high M+

    Hey.
    I have noticed that the last top 5 times runs on R.IO is a prot warrior topping the charts along with a BrM monk.
    I haven't noticed any serious buff to utility and the only buff I recall was the % buff to vanguard and stamina.

    What has changed that made prot warrior so good in pushing high m+?

    I am actually curious because i havent noticed any obvious changes.

    Thanks.

  2. #2
    Just my 2 cents but I'm pretty sure Prot Warriors scale amazingly with gear, which we just got a crapton of as well as Reaping being considered a meme affix.
    Besides that I don't think the class got a stealth buff, just other factors weighing in.
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  3. #3
    Prot warrior DPS is absurdly high compared to the other tanks. That's why.
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  4. #4
    Prot outdpsses most DDS in AOE with Avatar+ Demo Shout.

  5. #5
    It depends on the affixes.

    Prot Warriors are by far the highest AoE DPS tanks. They dominate on Teeming and the new seasonal Reaping affix, but are far less valuable on Tyrannical or Grievous weeks for example
    You can essentially play around utility with different tactics/pulls or comps. But you either have DPS or you dont.

    The same happened in Legion with DH tanks when they were top DPS tank, despite DKs being superior in every other aspect.
    There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want

  6. #6
    https://www.wowhead.com/protection-w...g-in-patch-8-1 lists a few strong buffs. Mainly IP & Charge off GCD, better scaling with tank passive (stamina and armor via str), and more uptime with shield block due to reduced cooldown. Those combined with AE DPS of prot warriors and Reaping being more DPS based than what infested was both combine to make them very strong this season.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Kochen View Post
    Hey.
    I have noticed that the last top 5 times runs on R.IO is a prot warrior topping the charts along with a BrM monk.
    I haven't noticed any serious buff to utility and the only buff I recall was the % buff to vanguard and stamina.

    What has changed that made prot warrior so good in pushing high m+?

    I am actually curious because i havent noticed any obvious changes.

    Thanks.
    New azerite armor having twice the traits do affect classes differently, not every class benefit from this equally.
    Also warriors did get a buff in 8.1

  8. #8
    Prot warrior absolutely tops dps charts in massive aoe, which reaping offers more than enough.

  9. #9
    Damage is a huge factor but it's not the only thing.

    Prot warriors are the most durable tank as long as the damage is blockable. Prot can face tank huge packs of meelee mobs longer than any other tank before running out of juice and needing to kite

    Spell reflect (does far more DPS on bosses where it’s usable than even DPS classes on tyrannical weeks; not tracked by meters,

    Safeguard can be used to counter several high damage boss mechanics that target DPS severing axe, and spit gold big deal on tyrannical

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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by DazManianDevil View Post
    Just my 2 cents but I'm pretty sure Prot Warriors scale amazingly with gear, which we just got a crapton of as well as Reaping being considered a meme affix.
    Besides that I don't think the class got a stealth buff, just other factors weighing in.
    Prot does not scale "amazingly with gear" no specs really scale exceptionally anymore. And they haven't since MoP/WoD era. If anything, as far as playing optimally, brewmaster is the most gear reliant tank. And that's not exactly by a noticeable margin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Powell View Post
    It depends on the affixes.

    Prot Warriors are by far the highest AoE DPS tanks. They dominate on Teeming and the new seasonal Reaping affix, but are far less valuable on Tyrannical or Grievous weeks for example
    You can essentially play around utility with different tactics/pulls or comps. But you either have DPS or you dont.

    The same happened in Legion with DH tanks when they were top DPS tank, despite DKs being superior in every other aspect.
    Prot is objectively better on tyrannical than on fortified. By a lot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freshouttajail View Post
    New azerite armor having twice the traits do affect classes differently, not every class benefit from this equally.
    Also warriors did get a buff in 8.1
    The azerite change has nothing to do with prot's power right now.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Deciticus View Post
    Prot does not scale "amazingly with gear" no specs really scale exceptionally anymore. And they haven't since MoP/WoD era. If anything, as far as playing optimally, brewmaster is the most gear reliant tank. And that's not exactly by a noticeable margin.

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    Prot is objectively better on tyrannical than on fortified. By a lot.

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    The azerite change has nothing to do with prot's power right now.
    Why aren't you Mr negative.
    If everyone here is just wrong why don't you share that vast knowledge with us rather than just contradicting every post.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Donimic View Post
    Why aren't you Mr negative.
    If everyone here is just wrong why don't you share that vast knowledge with us rather than just contradicting every post.
    Prot deals the best by far with bosses. Some bosses that are notable for melting tanks, such as second boss in shrine, tree boss in Waycrest, Council in KR, you can facetank mechanics you're supposed to kite or otherwise handle. Many bosses, such as Lady waycrest and triad in Waycrest, first boss in UR, third boss in KR, first boss in Temple, and last boss in Temple, you can spell reflect for serious effect on bosses.

    Not to mention bosses like last boss Underrot, where you can infinite Victory Rush and solo. Additonally, in tyrannical keys, trash is easier (so things like magic damage are less lethal to non-paladins) and you pull larger, and prot's mass, stupidly strong aoe has far more impact. That, combined with their ability to better handle hard tank bosses, is a greater combo.

    Fortified, non-paladin/DK tanks (and even DKs, to an extent) get shredded by magic damage and bleeds, and bosses don't mean much. You pull smaller, so prot's super aoe is less dominating.

    A notable exception to this rule is of course, Motherlode, as the last two bosses shred every tank except paladins and DKs, due to their attacks being all magical, including their autos.

    Prot was already a strong tank in 8.0. It was numerically inferior to DK and monk for most scenarios, infested make utility far more important than anything else, and prot was significantly less forgiving to play. With buffs making it equal or better in almost all scenarios numerically, changes to IP and SB allowing for far easier and more forgiving play, allows for prot really open up. Traits don't have much to do with it. Specifically because prot traits aren't exactly groundbreaking, and the only one worth dropping ilvl for is your first DC.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Kochen View Post
    I haven't noticed any serious buff to utility and the only buff I recall was the % buff to vanguard and stamina.

    What has changed that made prot warrior so good in pushing high m+?
    1. Reaping replacing infested. That obviously shifted the importance towards aoe / burst aoe and handling big pulls.

    2. The defensive buffs to warrior (IP off gcd, 15% armor and 10% stamina, making more abilities blockable like gunshots in siege / freehold) allow the warrior to be much less squishy, facetank more and kite less. Warrior is weak for kiting but amazing when it can stand toe to toe and pump dps. Defensive buffs to warrior ARE a buff to his dps because they're a buff to dps uptime as comparison to having to kite to give healer a breather. Also IP on gcd WAS a dps loss because you had to stop dps for a global to use IP, usual problems was getting rage capped, not using IP or losing dps. Now that problem is solved.

    Personally I would prefer if warrior dps was more in-line with other tanks but their utility was increased (bring back shield slam dispel and gag order pls), but well I'm not Blizzard... Atm on aoe packs prot warrior does more dps than some dedicated dps specs, which is pretty silly. The only thing that was stopping them before was they'd fall splat. Now they don't.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Marrilaife View Post
    1. Reaping replacing infested. That obviously shifted the importance towards aoe / burst aoe and handling big pulls.

    2. The defensive buffs to warrior (IP off gcd, 15% armor and 10% stamina, making more abilities blockable like gunshots in siege / freehold) allow the warrior to be much less squishy, facetank more and kite less. Warrior is weak for kiting but amazing when it can stand toe to toe and pump dps. Defensive buffs to warrior ARE a buff to his dps because they're a buff to dps uptime as comparison to having to kite to give healer a breather. Also IP on gcd WAS a dps loss because you had to stop dps for a global to use IP, usual problems was getting rage capped, not using IP or losing dps. Now that problem is solved.

    Personally I would prefer if warrior dps was more in-line with other tanks but their utility was increased (bring back shield slam dispel and gag order pls), but well I'm not Blizzard... Atm on aoe packs prot warrior does more dps than some dedicated dps specs, which is pretty silly. The only thing that was stopping them before was they'd fall splat. Now they don't.
    Let's take it as long as it lasts....so many players having fun with the huge dps....and we all know what blizz does when they smell fun.
    Honestly the dps is just to high. I highly belief that this is not working as intended. 100k + dps by a tank on reaps? Sorry but that is just so far ahead of everyone else that there will probably be a nerfed sooner rather then later.

    Sad to say it because i had fun on my warrior...but that's how it goes

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Kochen View Post
    I haven't noticed any serious buff to utility and the only buff I recall was the % buff to vanguard and stamina.

    What has changed that made prot warrior so good?
    There were a number of positive changes for warriors:
    • ranged physical attacks can now be blocked (a buff for paladins and especially warriors)
    • Shield Block cooldown has been reduced by 2 seconds, resulting in higher mitigation up-time
    • Ignore Pain is off the GCD now, leaving you with more GCDs for rotational abilities (= more dps and rage generation)
    • Vanguard passive has been buffed, giving more stamina and armor
    • new Bastion of Might trait is very strong

    Some other things that are helpful, though maybe not direct buffs include:
    • Reaping is an affix that plays into warriors strength (AoE dps)
    • Azerite traits are generally more impactful than those of some other classes (such as Blood DKs), so having 3 more from the outer ring is more of a boost for warriors
    • the previous dominant M+ tanks (blood DKs) were nerfed (Bonestorm, Will of the Necropolis nerfs), closing the gap between the classes

    I'd say that the tank balance is much better than in season 1 with warriors, paladins, DKs, and monks all very competitive depending on the affixes.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by swatsonqt View Post
    Let's take it as long as it lasts....so many players having fun with the huge dps....and we all know what blizz does when they smell fun.
    Honestly the dps is just to high. I highly belief that this is not working as intended. 100k + dps by a tank on reaps? Sorry but that is just so far ahead of everyone else that there will probably be a nerfed sooner rather then later.

    Sad to say it because i had fun on my warrior...but that's how it goes
    I guess you didn't have a "pleasure" playing a non warrior tank in duo with warrior tank that constantly rips aggro off you, messes tank debuff swapping through it (like the fire debuff on jadefire masters) and you have to spam taunt on cd just to do your assigment, and sometimes it's not even enough (had to taunt 3 times in a row on opulence when warrior pops all cds).

    And don't worry, it doesn't even compare to how average dps player feels when they see tank topping the meters. Every time tanks were outdpsing dpsers it was nerfed.

  17. #17
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    Unstoppable force is likely going to get nerfed at some point. I wouldn't be surprised if they looked at spell reflected abilities to a degree. Not stopping these abilities from being reflected, but possibly making it do flat damage instead of scaling with the key levels. There are a few instances of how crazy this can be, especially in ToS.

    Tank balance in M+ actually isn't too bad though. If protection warriors didn't do so much damage and blood DK azerite traits weren't the worst in the game, you would probably see more parody on high keys between warriors, death knights and monks (which is more than can be said about S1).

    Thunder clap just does way too much damage. Anybody who played or ran with a blood DK at the start of WoD knows how strong blood boil was before they nerfed it by 30% 2 weeks into the raid, then nerfed it again by another 20% a bit later.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Kochen View Post
    Hey.
    I have noticed that the last top 5 times runs on R.IO is a prot warrior topping the charts along with a BrM monk.
    I haven't noticed any serious buff to utility and the only buff I recall was the % buff to vanguard and stamina.

    What has changed that made prot warrior so good in pushing high m+?

    I am actually curious because i havent noticed any obvious changes.

    Thanks.
    One of the biggest things they did was remove Ignore Pain, one of our main mitigation tools, off the GCD. This not only allowed us to be slightly more reactive, but those GCDs spent on Ignore pain are now spent on rage building abilities, allowing for more IPs ect. The spec is more fun to play and just all around more solid just from that change, but there have also been some other small tweaks, I just can't remember specifics.

    And as others have said, Demo+Avatar = the "big dick" people always ask for in M+.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marrilaife View Post
    I guess you didn't have a "pleasure" playing a non warrior tank in duo with warrior tank that constantly rips aggro off you, messes tank debuff swapping through it (like the fire debuff on jadefire masters) and you have to spam taunt on cd just to do your assigment, and sometimes it's not even enough (had to taunt 3 times in a row on opulence when warrior pops all cds).

    And don't worry, it doesn't even compare to how average dps player feels when they see tank topping the meters. Every time tanks were outdpsing dpsers it was nerfed.
    Prot warrior DPS is only good on trash packs and heavy AoE. On bosses, warriors shouldn't be beating anyone unless there's tons of sustained AoE, and even then, once our CDs are gone we're pretty much the same as other tanks. If we get lucky and get a really good streak of resets our ST damage can get pretty decent, but that's all RNG, if we don't get Shield Slam resets we pretty much hit like a wet noodle.

    So here's my question. Would you really want trash to take longer, just so you can be higher on the chart than tanks during said trash? Is your position on a meter really that important that you'd want to spend more time doing the boring parts of dungeons instead of mowing it down faster to get to the fun part, bosses, where you should be destroying tanks 99% of the time?

    Also, threat meters are still a thing, the situations you described are 100% avoidable. And even more so, the only time our threat can be that outrageous is with CDs, which last 8 (14 with Azerite trait) and 20 seconds for Demo Shout and Avatar (Demo shout azerite trait was given a cap, no more 100% uptime), so it sounds like you just played with some awful warriors who didn't know how to properly time stuff and used CDs when it wasn't his turn to tank. You can't blame the class when it's not even being played properly.

    Also also, I'd just like to remind you of a time when we had a mechanic called "Vengeance". That situation will likely never arise again, and was pretty much the only time in WoW history that there's been a legitimate reason to bitch about tank DPS, because over all it's been pretty good, we always do well on trash, but no one cares about that, on bosses you'll pretty much never see a tank of equal gear/skill pass DPS.
    Last edited by Jazzhands; 2019-02-22 at 12:59 AM.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzhands View Post
    On bosses, warriors shouldn't be beating anyone unless there's tons of sustained AoE,
    Check again:
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...76&class=Tanks
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...63&class=Tanks
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...68&class=Tanks
    Deliberately picking bosses where you move adds away so you can't really pad.

    On fights where you can aoe pad it's even worse:
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...72&class=Tanks
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...71&class=Tanks

    Warriors DO more single target damage than any other tank, on top of it their aoe is SIGNIFICANTLY higher than any other tank.

    And about m+, trash is the bigger portion of the clear than the bosses, a tank that does outrageously high dps on trash is pushing other tanks out of meta, in a similar way that "immortal" tanks were pushing other tanks out of meta because it allowed healers to dps more, that's the reason dks got nerfed.
    Last edited by Marrilaife; 2019-02-22 at 02:06 AM.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Marrilaife View Post
    Check again:
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...76&class=Tanks
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...63&class=Tanks
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...68&class=Tanks
    Deliberately picking bosses where you move adds away so you can't really pad.

    On fights where you can aoe pad it's even worse:
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...72&class=Tanks
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...71&class=Tanks

    Warriors DO more single target damage than any other tank, on top of it their aoe is SIGNIFICANTLY higher than any other tank.

    And about m+, trash is the bigger portion of the clear than the bosses, a tank that does outrageously high dps on trash is pushing other tanks out of meta, in a similar way that "immortal" tanks were pushing other tanks out of meta because it allowed healers to dps more, that's the reason dks got nerfed.
    I'm pretty sure he was saying warriors shouldn't be beating any dps on bosses. Which is correct.

    Unless you're a really shit guardian druid, you shouldn't be losing aggro to a prot warrior. There's not really issues with threat. Especially on jadefire, there's no way to pull aggro unless either A; you're shit or B; the other tank is focusing the boss that you're holding, instead of his own.

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