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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnosh View Post
    Spell reflect is just one no point on mentioning it twice, might be just the hurge to spit stuff out i know i know...

    Ok, so let's debunk this:

    1- Yes, we have a 40 frontal cone stun, which we have had for years. Nothing new there and NEVER was the reason Warriors were picked for M+;
    2- Rallying Cry is great, it's utility for the party. Since we are talking about utility, please compare it with: Hand of the protector, Lay on Hands, Blessing of Sacrifice, Blessing of Protection, Blessing of Spellwarding, Ring of peace, etc;
    3- Shout, not sure what you wan't to talk about shout, we had shout since the the start of the expansion... We were not picked, we were meme spec. Do you not understand that shout is great because you build your group around Prot warrior and rogues? Which is why they bring a WW monk too and on top the Druid can go Cat form to dps so everyone benefits from Attack Power and the Extra physical damage taken debuff from the monk. Using Shout as a ''OMG WE HAVE SHOUT WE ARE SO STRONG'' is not understanding what you are talking about, you are not picked because you have shout, you are picked because you are strong and so are rogues, having shout is just something extra that will help determine and min max the rest of the group. If you didn't had shout you would still be there, the same way you had shout before and you were not being first choice and why DH were there instead of WWMonks;
    4- Safeguard is awesome, can't argue with you, buuuuut it's only picked in like 1 dungeon and has to be tyranical, so meh =/;
    5- Spell reflect is truly great, it's a win more kind of thing when you can reflect and a big balloon of oxygen when you can't;
    6- Fear is mostly used as a mass interrupt or displacer. Again, Paladins have Blinding light which also mass interrupts, Monks have Ring of Peace;
    7- Ranged Stun, yes so do Paladins and DK's while Monks have a cc at range (which palas spec into too);


    About the rest, you must a top prot warrior, but like a hidden gem, because i see, you know Warriors that win MDI's, resetting the stacks on 22+WM on the Tree Boss in tyranical. The third boss in KR? Are you joking? You don't parry you kite that's what happens which... oh boy all tanks can actually parry! :O I'd say you need to teach them how to play you clearly know stuff they don't

    It's impressive, I'm the dumbass but everyone who knows a little bit of tanking will tell you that you have much less control over mobs as a warrior than you have as a DK. Snap mobs on top of that is priceless especially when you hear Blizz saying they want to avoid snapping mobs and fix it

    So dude, before you come here with insults and stuff just don't talk man, really it's disappointing I expected someone who comes with insults and stuff to at least make some good points or at least some factual information

    Final notes: To be clear I'm not saying warriors are bad, actually the opposite, Prot Warriors are awesome at the moment, we have all these things like a lot of other Tanks but on top of that we out-dps them all, making us probably the best tank around for m+. But, with this being said we still see teams running other tanks like Prot Paladins and Brewmaster Monks clearing 24's and 25's in time, which means that even with our OP damage we can still have competition. Take our overpowered damage away with a nerf and a change in affix and we will probably be outclassed by those same tanks that are still competing with us.
    Spell reflect is certainly worth being mentioned twice.

    Shockwave is the only aoe stun aside from monks, and it's a low CD by a good chunk. It's certainly worth being mentioned specifically.

    Alright, stop. The guy made a statement that warrior brings no utility to a group. My response was stating that it does. You're arguing against my list as though I said each individual point is the ONLY reason warrior is brought. I never said, or implied, any of that. It's literally just a list of utility warrior brings to a group. Chill the fuck out.

    Rally is objectively better in some scenarios than the others you listed, and objectively worse in others. None of them are "the best" to any degree.

    Shout is just good damage. Again, literally listed it in response to "warrior brings no utility". Chill the fuck out.

    Safeguard should never not be taken. You can make an arguement for fort-TD, but that's pretty much it. There's never a reason to not have it everywhere else.

    Spell reflect when it's not eaten is a 20% uptime 20% magic DR. That's pretty damn good.

    Again, a list of utility. Nothing more. Chill the fuck out.

    Again, a list of utility warrior brings. Nothing more. Chill the fuck out.

    I specifically said +20 tyrannical. I haven't been daring enough to try it on any higher, because it's a pointless risk of a key. Why you jumped to 22 is beyond me, but it implies you didn't read anything I actually said. You're just deciding I'm wrong, and ignoring anything else.

    I never said warrior had as much as, much less more, control than DKs. But snapping has been around for years, and was used in both prior MDIs and the Blizzcon event for m+. It's not going to suddenly be fixed. And it's very valid.

    You haven't debunked, disproven, or brought anything against what I've said. You've obviously not actually read what I wrote, and you're blatantly going around my statements. You're acting like an absolute ass, without actually responding to What I said.

    Try again. Obviously warrior is awesome right now. A guardian druid has completed +24s in time, do you think they'll suddenly be meta? You're bringing nothing but conjecture and feelycrafting to an objective discussion. You're ignoring my points and just throwing words out for fun. Stop acting like a smug dick and actually respond to me.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Deciticus View Post
    Spell reflect is certainly worth being mentioned twice.

    Shockwave is the only aoe stun aside from monks, and it's a low CD by a good chunk. It's certainly worth being mentioned specifically.

    Alright, stop. The guy made a statement that warrior brings no utility to a group. My response was stating that it does. You're arguing against my list as though I said each individual point is the ONLY reason warrior is brought. I never said, or implied, any of that. It's literally just a list of utility warrior brings to a group. Chill the fuck out.

    Rally is objectively better in some scenarios than the others you listed, and objectively worse in others. None of them are "the best" to any degree.

    Shout is just good damage. Again, literally listed it in response to "warrior brings no utility". Chill the fuck out.

    Safeguard should never not be taken. You can make an arguement for fort-TD, but that's pretty much it. There's never a reason to not have it everywhere else.

    Spell reflect when it's not eaten is a 20% uptime 20% magic DR. That's pretty damn good.

    Again, a list of utility. Nothing more. Chill the fuck out.

    Again, a list of utility warrior brings. Nothing more. Chill the fuck out.

    I specifically said +20 tyrannical. I haven't been daring enough to try it on any higher, because it's a pointless risk of a key. Why you jumped to 22 is beyond me, but it implies you didn't read anything I actually said. You're just deciding I'm wrong, and ignoring anything else.

    I never said warrior had as much as, much less more, control than DKs. But snapping has been around for years, and was used in both prior MDIs and the Blizzcon event for m+. It's not going to suddenly be fixed. And it's very valid.

    You haven't debunked, disproven, or brought anything against what I've said. You've obviously not actually read what I wrote, and you're blatantly going around my statements. You're acting like an absolute ass, without actually responding to What I said.

    Try again. Obviously warrior is awesome right now. A guardian druid has completed +24s in time, do you think they'll suddenly be meta? You're bringing nothing but conjecture and feelycrafting to an objective discussion. You're ignoring my points and just throwing words out for fun. Stop acting like a smug dick and actually respond to me.
    At this point I'm not sure if you are a Prot Warrior or a Brewmaster... you dodge so much that's insane actually.

    You replied to ME, you quoted ME. So I picked what YOU replied to ME. I'm acting like an absolute ass? you started your conversation by insulting me, stop playing victim now, called your shit and proved that all the crap you named we either already had OR is not the reason we are being picked.

    What does clearing a 20 mater for the big scheme of things and for the balance point of things? In my first post I asked why does it matter if I can face tank up to 18's (which the majority can do now) and after that I'll have to do mechanics like other tanks - which you disproved with a 20 and which I then was forced to point out that least after 22's prot warriors have to do like other tanks, still at 20 you don't face tank 3rd boss in KR without a parry on Tyranical. Who is not reading? I'm so chilled that at least i bother reading, do you?

    Again I do believe you should teach top warriors because they disagree with you with safeguard... you must know something they don't

    About snapping I'm temped to go watch the previous MDI's but I just don't have time, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on it and just pretend Top MDI contenders just have poor memory because before these MDI's they were worried it would be against the rules if they snapped mobs and get disqualified.

    Like I said and this was my entire point, Warrior is the meta atm, but even being so you have already a strong contender: Prot Paladin. Why is Prot Paladin a stronger contender than what you decided to refer (G.Druid)? Simple, you look at the top 10 timed runs on RaiderIO and you have 3 Prot Warriors and 3 Prot Paladins, nothing else nothing more now imagine if Paladin and Warrior DPS was actually on par...

    How can I be a smug dick if I just pointed factual information to your grocery list? I mean... I responded to everything you said and backed my point, take away our advantage - insane damage - replace the affix for something more single target and you will be outclassed by another tank.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Deciticus View Post
    Safeguard can make a mechanic that is normally healing intensive, if not a oneshot, on higher keys, specifically tyrannical, a non-issue. Attempt higher keys, and see what it can do. And again, spell reflect cannot be overlooked.

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    This might be true, but i dont look from a MDI perspective. Most ppl aren't playing keys higher than 15. But ppl want to get as easy as possible through m+. Safeguard is not needed at all. Spellreflect is nice on certain bosses where you can reflect. Outside of that its just a defensive spell like other thans have as well (anti magic shell?). Otherwise we can list a kick as utility too.

    Magnosh is stating our utilities arent helpful it comes to decide what tank to bring in m+. Today prot warrior is taken due its insane ae dps. Magnosh is not ass or what ever you call him. He simply states how it is. We can discuss if we have utility or not, but thats not the point. Our utilities are not what make us great. Its our ae dmg and our survivability. This two things are what all tanks should be balanced around. But if we are, then we dont bring anything special to our group. Well if you think we do, i hope there are more of your kind out there :-)

    At the end it will depend if we still do so much more dps to outperform other utilities or be that freaking sturdy to give a healer more dps windows. Is this a bad design? I think so. Now you can say we simply underrate our utilities...ok, then we have different pov's. And i hope we got more on your side then on mine.
    Last edited by Allseye; Today at 04:11 PM. Reason: Wrong name, i meant magnosh is not ignoring.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnosh View Post
    At this point I'm not sure if you are a Prot Warrior or a Brewmaster... you dodge so much that's insane actually.

    You replied to ME, you quoted ME. So I picked what YOU replied to ME. I'm acting like an absolute ass? you started your conversation by insulting me, stop playing victim now, called your shit and proved that all the crap you named we either already had OR is not the reason we are being picked.

    What does clearing a 20 mater for the big scheme of things and for the balance point of things? In my first post I asked why does it matter if I can face tank up to 18's (which the majority can do now) and after that I'll have to do mechanics like other tanks - which you disproved with a 20 and which I then was forced to point out that least after 22's prot warriors have to do like other tanks, still at 20 you don't face tank 3rd boss in KR without a parry on Tyranical. Who is not reading? I'm so chilled that at least i bother reading, do you?

    Again I do believe you should teach top warriors because they disagree with you with safeguard... you must know something they don't

    About snapping I'm temped to go watch the previous MDI's but I just don't have time, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on it and just pretend Top MDI contenders just have poor memory because before these MDI's they were worried it would be against the rules if they snapped mobs and get disqualified.

    Like I said and this was my entire point, Warrior is the meta atm, but even being so you have already a strong contender: Prot Paladin. Why is Prot Paladin a stronger contender than what you decided to refer (G.Druid)? Simple, you look at the top 10 timed runs on RaiderIO and you have 3 Prot Warriors and 3 Prot Paladins, nothing else nothing more now imagine if Paladin and Warrior DPS was actually on par...

    How can I be a smug dick if I just pointed factual information to your grocery list? I mean... I responded to everything you said and backed my point, take away our advantage - insane damage - replace the affix for something more single target and you will be outclassed by another tank.
    Actually I ended it, by calling you a dumbass. You're not exactly disproving that title.
    You haven't proved anything. Like, literally not a thing.
    Your statement was complaining that at 18 and higher you have to kite like other tanks. I stated that you are incorrect. You do not need to kite up to at least a 20. Not sure why that needed anything more. You're not doing higher keys, else you'd have started there. I'm only doing slightly higher keys. And yes, you can do it at 20.

    What warrior disagrees with me on safeguard. Do point it out.

    And yet they used it? In AD and FH, and in the Antorus MDI they used it in EoA and DhT

    You didn't "just point factual information". You repeatedly...acted like a smug dick. I really don't need to go in depth on the definition on that, do I?

    You didn't disprove anything. You've made repeated statements that went around or blatantly ignored my points, ignoring intent or meaning, and even made a few errors. Which I pointed out.

    The damage isn't what makes warrior so strong. Again. It's the mitigation.

    You didn't back squat. You haven't provided anything to back yourself. Your advantage isn't insane damage. You take magnitudes LESS damage than every other tank, and require vastly less healing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Allseye View Post
    This might be true, but i dont look from a MDI perspective. Most ppl aren't playing keys higher than 15. But ppl want to get as easy as possible through m+. Safeguard is not needed at all. Spellreflect is nice on certain bosses where you can reflect. Outside of that its just a defensive spell like other thans have as well (anti magic shell?). Otherwise we can list a kick as utility too.

    Deciticus is stating our utilities arent helpful it comes to decide what tank to bring in m+. Today prot warrior is taken due its insane ae dps. Deciticus is not ass or what ever you call him. He simply states how it is. We can discuss if we have utility or not, but thats not the point. Our utilities are not what make us great. Its our ae dmg and our survivability. This two things are what all tanks should be balanced around. But if we are, then we dont bring anything special to our group. Well if you think we do, i hope there are more of your kind out there :-)

    At the end it will depend if we still do so much more dps to outperform other utilities or be that freaking sturdy to give a healer more dps windows. Is this a bad design? I think so. Now you can say we simply underrate our utilities...ok, then we have different pov's. And i hope we got more on your side then on mine.
    You can reflect abilities on 12 of the 41 bosses, and reflect uninterruptable abilities. Such as from minibosses and "big" mobs.

    No, prot is taken due to it's insane mitigation. In the MDI, it's taken for it's damage and it's insane mitigation. In pushing high keys, it's mostly for the mitigation. Prot requires less healing and babysitting than every other tank by a lot.

    The utility isn't what makes any tank great but paladin.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Deciticus View Post
    Actually I ended it, by calling you a dumbass. You're not exactly disproving that title.
    You haven't proved anything. Like, literally not a thing.
    Your statement was complaining that at 18 and higher you have to kite like other tanks. I stated that you are incorrect. You do not need to kite up to at least a 20. Not sure why that needed anything more. You're not doing higher keys, else you'd have started there. I'm only doing slightly higher keys. And yes, you can do it at 20.

    What warrior disagrees with me on safeguard. Do point it out.

    And yet they used it? In AD and FH, and in the Antorus MDI they used it in EoA and DhT

    You didn't "just point factual information". You repeatedly...acted like a smug dick. I really don't need to go in depth on the definition on that, do I?

    You didn't disprove anything. You've made repeated statements that went around or blatantly ignored my points, ignoring intent or meaning, and even made a few errors. Which I pointed out.

    The damage isn't what makes warrior so strong. Again. It's the mitigation.

    You didn't back squat. You haven't provided anything to back yourself. Your advantage isn't insane damage. You take magnitudes LESS damage than every other tank, and require vastly less healing.

    - - - Updated - - -



    You can reflect abilities on 12 of the 41 bosses, and reflect uninterruptable abilities. Such as from minibosses and "big" mobs.

    No, prot is taken due to it's insane mitigation. In the MDI, it's taken for it's damage and it's insane mitigation. In pushing high keys, it's mostly for the mitigation. Prot requires less healing and babysitting than every other tank by a lot.

    The utility isn't what makes any tank great but paladin.
    Dude I'm not going to drop down to your low level of insults when you don't have arguments no matter how much you try

    ''What warrior disagrees with me on safeguard. Do point it out'' apparently all that competed in the MDI. Seriously you are killing me with this troll post

    In case you are actually not trolling and just refusing to use your brain cells and being overly pedantic let's recap because pedantic is something i can be too, when you say ''Your statement was complaining that at 18 and higher you have to kite like other tanks. I stated that you are incorrect. You do not need to kite up to at least a 20. Not sure why that needed anything more. You're not doing higher keys, else you'd have started there. I'm only doing slightly higher keys. And yes, you can do it at 20.''

    ''18 and plus means'' and now lets go back to kindergarten: 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, etc. So, what I mean is that after a certain threshold you have to actually kite like other tanks, which is right. You claiming I was wrong because you did a 20 WM and got baby-sited putting extra and unneeded stress on the healer which doesn't mean it should be done that way, and claiming that my simple logic X or higher is wrong because of 1 experience you had when far better warriors than you don't do it on the range that I claimed is just not having arguing power. While being pedantic on your original part you used the 3rd boss on KR and no, if you don't parry you can't face tank it, if any tank parries any tank can face tank.

    So you are telling me that removing Ignore pain from the CGD and increasing our armor by 5% made us take magnitudes LESS damage than every other tank and thus the top tanks for m+?

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Deciticus View Post
    Actually I ended it, by calling you a dumbass. You're not exactly disproving that title.
    You haven't proved anything. Like, literally not a thing.
    Your statement was complaining that at 18 and higher you have to kite like other tanks. I stated that you are incorrect. You do not need to kite up to at least a 20. Not sure why that needed anything more. You're not doing higher keys, else you'd have started there. I'm only doing slightly higher keys. And yes, you can do it at 20.

    What warrior disagrees with me on safeguard. Do point it out.

    And yet they used it? In AD and FH, and in the Antorus MDI they used it in EoA and DhT

    You didn't "just point factual information". You repeatedly...acted like a smug dick. I really don't need to go in depth on the definition on that, do I?

    You didn't disprove anything. You've made repeated statements that went around or blatantly ignored my points, ignoring intent or meaning, and even made a few errors. Which I pointed out.

    The damage isn't what makes warrior so strong. Again. It's the mitigation.

    You didn't back squat. You haven't provided anything to back yourself. Your advantage isn't insane damage. You take magnitudes LESS damage than every other tank, and require vastly less healing.

    - - - Updated - - -



    You can reflect abilities on 12 of the 41 bosses, and reflect uninterruptable abilities. Such as from minibosses and "big" mobs.

    No, prot is taken due to it's insane mitigation. In the MDI, it's taken for it's damage and it's insane mitigation. In pushing high keys, it's mostly for the mitigation. Prot requires less healing and babysitting than every other tank by a lot.

    The utility isn't what makes any tank great but paladin.
    Probably we can reflect 12 out of 41. I would have to go through each ability to really determine if it's a big deal (DPS-wise). Survivability wise i don't see a big difference to other tank abilites. And as i already mentioned, regarding magic-dmg selfheal is much stronger than our mitigation. Spellrefelct is great, but is (in my POV) nothing "outstanding".

    So, prot warrior is taken because of it's insane mitigation? Well that is really weird, why Blizzard is nerfing our AE DPS when our mitigation is outstanding? Our mitigation is good, but i don't see it's outstanding. I think atm we got a good spot regarding survivability and AE DPS (reaping affix helps alot here). Thats why we are taken in m+. We out-DPS missing utilities. Yeah it's true, atm utility is not what tanks make greate because of this. But if survivabilty and DPS is balanced (how it should be) - utility will be what makes the difference. But i have to admit, in last seasons we had 1 or 2 tanks with outstandig survivability or outstandig DPS, can't deny it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magnosh View Post
    Dude I'm not going to drop down to your low level of insults when you don't have arguments no matter how much you try

    ''What warrior disagrees with me on safeguard. Do point it out'' apparently all that competed in the MDI. Seriously you are killing me with this troll post

    In case you are actually not trolling and just refusing to use your brain cells and being overly pedantic let's recap because pedantic is something i can be too, when you say ''Your statement was complaining that at 18 and higher you have to kite like other tanks. I stated that you are incorrect. You do not need to kite up to at least a 20. Not sure why that needed anything more. You're not doing higher keys, else you'd have started there. I'm only doing slightly higher keys. And yes, you can do it at 20.''

    ''18 and plus means'' and now lets go back to kindergarten: 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, etc. So, what I mean is that after a certain threshold you have to actually kite like other tanks, which is right. You claiming I was wrong because you did a 20 WM and got baby-sited putting extra and unneeded stress on the healer which doesn't mean it should be done that way, and claiming that my simple logic X or higher is wrong because of 1 experience you had when far better warriors than you don't do it on the range that I claimed is just not having arguing power. While being pedantic on your original part you used the 3rd boss on KR and no, if you don't parry you can't face tank it, if any tank parries any tank can face tank.

    So you are telling me that removing Ignore pain from the CGD and increasing our armor by 5% made us take magnitudes LESS damage than every other tank and thus the top tanks for m+?
    I'm on our side, but let's wait and see how hard this nerf will be. As you mention 5% armor and IP: there have been more adjustments than this. I personnally feel removing IP from GCD was a keypoint and should not be underestimated. All other fixes together made a good improvement in our suvivabilty as well. Additionally scaling with itemlevel seems to be not that bad too.

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