Prot warrior pushing high M+

[Deciticus]

At this point I'm not sure if you are a Prot Warrior or a Brewmaster... you dodge so much that's insane actually.

You replied to ME, you quoted ME. So I picked what YOU replied to ME. I'm acting like an absolute ass? you started your conversation by insulting me, stop playing victim now, called your shit and proved that all the crap you named we either already had OR is not the reason we are being picked.

What does clearing a 20 mater for the big scheme of things and for the balance point of things? In my first post I asked why does it matter if I can face tank up to 18's (which the majority can do now) and after that I'll have to do mechanics like other tanks - which you disproved with a 20 and which I then was forced to point out that least after 22's prot warriors have to do like other tanks, still at 20 you don't face tank 3rd boss in KR without a parry on Tyranical. Who is not reading? I'm so chilled that at least i bother reading, do you?

Again I do believe you should teach top warriors because they disagree with you with safeguard... you must know something they don't

About snapping I'm temped to go watch the previous MDI's but I just don't have time, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on it and just pretend Top MDI contenders just have poor memory because before these MDI's they were worried it would be against the rules if they snapped mobs and get disqualified.

Like I said and this was my entire point, Warrior is the meta atm, but even being so you have already a strong contender: Prot Paladin. Why is Prot Paladin a stronger contender than what you decided to refer (G.Druid)? Simple, you look at the top 10 timed runs on RaiderIO and you have 3 Prot Warriors and 3 Prot Paladins, nothing else nothing more now imagine if Paladin and Warrior DPS was actually on par...

How can I be a smug dick if I just pointed factual information to your grocery list? I mean... I responded to everything you said and backed my point, take away our advantage - insane damage - replace the affix for something more single target and you will be outclassed by another tank.

Actually I ended it, by calling you a dumbass. You're not exactly disproving that title.
You haven't proved anything. Like, literally not a thing.
Your statement was complaining that at 18 and higher you have to kite like other tanks. I stated that you are incorrect. You do not need to kite up to at least a 20. Not sure why that needed anything more. You're not doing higher keys, else you'd have started there. I'm only doing slightly higher keys. And yes, you can do it at 20.

What warrior disagrees with me on safeguard. Do point it out.

And yet they used it? In AD and FH, and in the Antorus MDI they used it in EoA and DhT

You didn't "just point factual information". You repeatedly...acted like a smug dick. I really don't need to go in depth on the definition on that, do I?

You didn't disprove anything. You've made repeated statements that went around or blatantly ignored my points, ignoring intent or meaning, and even made a few errors. Which I pointed out.

The damage isn't what makes warrior so strong. Again. It's the mitigation.

You didn't back squat. You haven't provided anything to back yourself. Your advantage isn't insane damage. You take magnitudes LESS damage than every other tank, and require vastly less healing.

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This might be true, but i dont look from a MDI perspective. Most ppl aren't playing keys higher than 15. But ppl want to get as easy as possible through m+. Safeguard is not needed at all. Spellreflect is nice on certain bosses where you can reflect. Outside of that its just a defensive spell like other thans have as well (anti magic shell?). Otherwise we can list a kick as utility too.

Deciticus is stating our utilities arent helpful it comes to decide what tank to bring in m+. Today prot warrior is taken due its insane ae dps. Deciticus is not ass or what ever you call him. He simply states how it is. We can discuss if we have utility or not, but thats not the point. Our utilities are not what make us great. Its our ae dmg and our survivability. This two things are what all tanks should be balanced around. But if we are, then we dont bring anything special to our group. Well if you think we do, i hope there are more of your kind out there :-)

At the end it will depend if we still do so much more dps to outperform other utilities or be that freaking sturdy to give a healer more dps windows. Is this a bad design? I think so. Now you can say we simply underrate our utilities...ok, then we have different pov's. And i hope we got more on your side then on mine.

You can reflect abilities on 12 of the 41 bosses, and reflect uninterruptable abilities. Such as from minibosses and "big" mobs.

No, prot is taken due to it's insane mitigation. In the MDI, it's taken for it's damage and it's insane mitigation. In pushing high keys, it's mostly for the mitigation. Prot requires less healing and babysitting than every other tank by a lot.

The utility isn't what makes any tank great but paladin.

[Magnosh]

Actually I ended it, by calling you a dumbass. You're not exactly disproving that title.
You haven't proved anything. Like, literally not a thing.
Your statement was complaining that at 18 and higher you have to kite like other tanks. I stated that you are incorrect. You do not need to kite up to at least a 20. Not sure why that needed anything more. You're not doing higher keys, else you'd have started there. I'm only doing slightly higher keys. And yes, you can do it at 20.

What warrior disagrees with me on safeguard. Do point it out.

And yet they used it? In AD and FH, and in the Antorus MDI they used it in EoA and DhT

You didn't "just point factual information". You repeatedly...acted like a smug dick. I really don't need to go in depth on the definition on that, do I?

You didn't disprove anything. You've made repeated statements that went around or blatantly ignored my points, ignoring intent or meaning, and even made a few errors. Which I pointed out.

The damage isn't what makes warrior so strong. Again. It's the mitigation.

You didn't back squat. You haven't provided anything to back yourself. Your advantage isn't insane damage. You take magnitudes LESS damage than every other tank, and require vastly less healing.

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You can reflect abilities on 12 of the 41 bosses, and reflect uninterruptable abilities. Such as from minibosses and "big" mobs.

No, prot is taken due to it's insane mitigation. In the MDI, it's taken for it's damage and it's insane mitigation. In pushing high keys, it's mostly for the mitigation. Prot requires less healing and babysitting than every other tank by a lot.

The utility isn't what makes any tank great but paladin.

Dude I'm not going to drop down to your low level of insults when you don't have arguments no matter how much you try

''What warrior disagrees with me on safeguard. Do point it out'' apparently all that competed in the MDI. Seriously you are killing me with this troll post

In case you are actually not trolling and just refusing to use your brain cells and being overly pedantic let's recap because pedantic is something i can be too, when you say ''Your statement was complaining that at 18 and higher you have to kite like other tanks. I stated that you are incorrect. You do not need to kite up to at least a 20. Not sure why that needed anything more. You're not doing higher keys, else you'd have started there. I'm only doing slightly higher keys. And yes, you can do it at 20.''

''18 and plus means'' and now lets go back to kindergarten: 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, etc. So, what I mean is that after a certain threshold you have to actually kite like other tanks, which is right. You claiming I was wrong because you did a 20 WM and got baby-sited putting extra and unneeded stress on the healer which doesn't mean it should be done that way, and claiming that my simple logic X or higher is wrong because of 1 experience you had when far better warriors than you don't do it on the range that I claimed is just not having arguing power. While being pedantic on your original part you used the 3rd boss on KR and no, if you don't parry you can't face tank it, if any tank parries any tank can face tank.

So you are telling me that removing Ignore pain from the CGD and increasing our armor by 5% made us take magnitudes LESS damage than every other tank and thus the top tanks for m+?

[Allseye]

Actually I ended it, by calling you a dumbass. You're not exactly disproving that title.
You haven't proved anything. Like, literally not a thing.
Your statement was complaining that at 18 and higher you have to kite like other tanks. I stated that you are incorrect. You do not need to kite up to at least a 20. Not sure why that needed anything more. You're not doing higher keys, else you'd have started there. I'm only doing slightly higher keys. And yes, you can do it at 20.

What warrior disagrees with me on safeguard. Do point it out.

And yet they used it? In AD and FH, and in the Antorus MDI they used it in EoA and DhT

You didn't "just point factual information". You repeatedly...acted like a smug dick. I really don't need to go in depth on the definition on that, do I?

You didn't disprove anything. You've made repeated statements that went around or blatantly ignored my points, ignoring intent or meaning, and even made a few errors. Which I pointed out.

The damage isn't what makes warrior so strong. Again. It's the mitigation.

You didn't back squat. You haven't provided anything to back yourself. Your advantage isn't insane damage. You take magnitudes LESS damage than every other tank, and require vastly less healing.

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You can reflect abilities on 12 of the 41 bosses, and reflect uninterruptable abilities. Such as from minibosses and "big" mobs.

No, prot is taken due to it's insane mitigation. In the MDI, it's taken for it's damage and it's insane mitigation. In pushing high keys, it's mostly for the mitigation. Prot requires less healing and babysitting than every other tank by a lot.

The utility isn't what makes any tank great but paladin.

Probably we can reflect 12 out of 41. I would have to go through each ability to really determine if it's a big deal (DPS-wise). Survivability wise i don't see a big difference to other tank abilites. And as i already mentioned, regarding magic-dmg selfheal is much stronger than our mitigation. Spellrefelct is great, but is (in my POV) nothing "outstanding".

So, prot warrior is taken because of it's insane mitigation? Well that is really weird, why Blizzard is nerfing our AE DPS when our mitigation is outstanding? Our mitigation is good, but i don't see it's outstanding. I think atm we got a good spot regarding survivability and AE DPS (reaping affix helps alot here). Thats why we are taken in m+. We out-DPS missing utilities. Yeah it's true, atm utility is not what tanks make greate because of this. But if survivabilty and DPS is balanced (how it should be) - utility will be what makes the difference. But i have to admit, in last seasons we had 1 or 2 tanks with outstandig survivability or outstandig DPS, can't deny it.

Dude I'm not going to drop down to your low level of insults when you don't have arguments no matter how much you try

''What warrior disagrees with me on safeguard. Do point it out'' apparently all that competed in the MDI. Seriously you are killing me with this troll post

In case you are actually not trolling and just refusing to use your brain cells and being overly pedantic let's recap because pedantic is something i can be too, when you say ''Your statement was complaining that at 18 and higher you have to kite like other tanks. I stated that you are incorrect. You do not need to kite up to at least a 20. Not sure why that needed anything more. You're not doing higher keys, else you'd have started there. I'm only doing slightly higher keys. And yes, you can do it at 20.''

''18 and plus means'' and now lets go back to kindergarten: 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, etc. So, what I mean is that after a certain threshold you have to actually kite like other tanks, which is right. You claiming I was wrong because you did a 20 WM and got baby-sited putting extra and unneeded stress on the healer which doesn't mean it should be done that way, and claiming that my simple logic X or higher is wrong because of 1 experience you had when far better warriors than you don't do it on the range that I claimed is just not having arguing power. While being pedantic on your original part you used the 3rd boss on KR and no, if you don't parry you can't face tank it, if any tank parries any tank can face tank.

So you are telling me that removing Ignore pain from the CGD and increasing our armor by 5% made us take magnitudes LESS damage than every other tank and thus the top tanks for m+?

I'm on our side, but let's wait and see how hard this nerf will be. As you mention 5% armor and IP: there have been more adjustments than this. I personnally feel removing IP from GCD was a keypoint and should not be underestimated. All other fixes together made a good improvement in our suvivabilty as well. Additionally scaling with itemlevel seems to be not that bad too.

[Magnosh]

Probably we can reflect 12 out of 41. I would have to go through each ability to really determine if it's a big deal (DPS-wise). Survivability wise i don't see a big difference to other tank abilites. And as i already mentioned, regarding magic-dmg selfheal is much stronger than our mitigation. Spellrefelct is great, but is (in my POV) nothing "outstanding".

So, prot warrior is taken because of it's insane mitigation? Well that is really weird, why Blizzard is nerfing our AE DPS when our mitigation is outstanding? Our mitigation is good, but i don't see it's outstanding. I think atm we got a good spot regarding survivability and AE DPS (reaping affix helps alot here). Thats why we are taken in m+. We out-DPS missing utilities. Yeah it's true, atm utility is not what tanks make greate because of this. But if survivabilty and DPS is balanced (how it should be) - utility will be what makes the difference. But i have to admit, in last seasons we had 1 or 2 tanks with outstandig survivability or outstandig DPS, can't deny it.



I'm on our side, but let's wait and see how hard this nerf will be. As you mention 5% armor and IP: there have been more adjustments than this. I personnally feel removing IP from GCD was a keypoint and should not be underestimated. All other fixes together made a good improvement in our suvivabilty as well. Additionally scaling with itemlevel seems to be not that bad too.

I agree, it's a keypoint, probably more than the 5% armor itself and on top we also got that extra Strength that came with it. My personal prediction is that if the new seasonal affix is more single target oriented and kind of punishing to big pulls we wont see the representation we have now, sure we will probably be able to do high keys the same way any tank can right now but we wont be like 50% of the tank composition as we are now.

[Newrio]

I somehow did not even think about this topic.

[JotunNL]

Well, ptr now has a 70% nerf to the increased damage of thunderclap, so I guess we're now kinda in trouble for AOE damage against bursty aoers..

[BossManRoth]

Well, ptr now has a 70% nerf to the increased damage of thunderclap, so I guess we're now kinda in trouble for AOE damage against bursty aoers..

50% increased damage during avatar to 30%... seems like a 40% nerf to me

i mean other that less damage, we still have the problem of no utilities

[JotunNL]

I meant nerf from start, from 100% to 30%

[Magnosh]

50% increased damage during avatar to 30%... seems like a 40% nerf to me

i mean other that less damage, we still have the problem of no utilities

From Live to PTR the nerf is 70%

[BossManRoth]

From Live to PTR the nerf is 70%

true true, i was just reading ptr notes. doesnt change my other point tho.

[Magnosh]

true true, i was just reading ptr notes. doesnt change my other point tho.

yup but can't do anything about it xD Blizz must think differently than us

[Eviltroll]

yup but can't do anything about it xD Blizz must think differently than us

Sorry to dissapoint you,but blizzard devs stopped thinking long ago mate .

[Magnosh]

Sorry to dissapoint you,but blizzard devs stopped thinking long ago mate .

One could argue that poor thought process is still thinking but I wont dare to go there xD

It's really disappointing that we go from Memespec to Godtier and now probably to mediocre spec. Would have been better if they just buffed other tanks to be on par with Prot Warrior instead. I mean Tanking is as boring as it gets this expansion in M+, doing big numbers under certain conditions certainly help it being more fun! ....damn I miss big numbers from MoP's Vengeance...

[dcc626]

One could argue that poor thought process is still thinking but I wont dare to go there xD

It's really disappointing that we go from Memespec to Godtier and now probably to mediocre spec. Would have been better if they just buffed other tanks to be on par with Prot Warrior instead. I mean Tanking is as boring as it gets this expansion in M+, doing big numbers under certain conditions certainly help it being more fun! ....damn I miss big numbers from MoP's Vengeance...

so in stead of bringing down 1 overperforming spec, its better to tweak several other specs to be as overpowered? doesnt really make sense.

unless you are th eone getting nerfed that is

and dont worry, you will still likely be the best tank class, just not by quite as much.

[Lenis]

One could argue that poor thought process is still thinking but I wont dare to go there xD

It's really disappointing that we go from Memespec to Godtier and now probably to mediocre spec. Would have been better if they just buffed other tanks to be on par with Prot Warrior instead. I mean Tanking is as boring as it gets this expansion in M+, doing big numbers under certain conditions certainly help it being more fun! ....damn I miss big numbers from MoP's Vengeance...

It really depends on seasonal affix but even with that nerf ProtW is top tank spec. While 100% -> 30% is pretty significant nerf, at this moment only BrM will be able to compete in damage meters with it (and I still dont believe Hot Trub will go live without significant nerfs).

There are two extremely overlooked things about ProtW (8.0 to 8.1)
1) Value of 3x Bastion of Might. Yes everyone knows how much it increases your dps but people dont understand that it makes Avatar not only offensive but defensive cooldown as well. You are really unlikely to die with just Avatar up in pretty much any situation.
2) Ignore Pain of GCD, a lot of people talk about how it made class more reactive and so on. However, the real value of it is Anger Management. You brush off 4s of your Avatar and Demoralizing Shout every time you click the button and you dont have to skip anything in your dps rotation. You even spam Ignore Pain when you are offtanking in raids or treants/elemental are tanking the mobs in M+. It makes Avatar come off cooldown so much quickier.

I personally started playing Prot Warrior like a month ago and I can keep 35% Avatar uptime throughout combat in dungeons without any problems. Better players do like 40%, even 45% in some cases. Making Anger Management inactive while you are in Avatar would be muuuuch bigger nerf than reduction in damage.

[Magnosh]

so in stead of bringing down 1 overperforming spec, its better to tweak several other specs to be as overpowered? doesnt really make sense.

unless you are th eone getting nerfed that is

and dont worry, you will still likely be the best tank class, just not by quite as much.

I generally play flavor of the month tank specs, always have been since Pandaria hence, doing CM's on all tanking classes.

Its about having anything more to aim for as a tank, you see less and less tanks in LFG for good reason: it's getting boring to tank. Being able to do big numbers on AoE packs is fun, like it's fun for any DPS class to do so. And while a DPS have another 2 guys to compete and challenge himself against tank's don't have it so allowing for certain moments to be kind of overpowered shouldn't hurt egos too much, we will always lose 80% of the times.

So, with this in mind, allowing more tanks to shine is, in my opinion, better than nerfing one spec that is having fun.

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It really depends on seasonal affix but even with that nerf ProtW is top tank spec. While 100% -> 30% is pretty significant nerf, at this moment only BrM will be able to compete in damage meters with it (and I still dont believe Hot Trub will go live without significant nerfs).

There are two extremely overlooked things about ProtW (8.0 to 8.1)
1) Value of 3x Bastion of Might. Yes everyone knows how much it increases your dps but people dont understand that it makes Avatar not only offensive but defensive cooldown as well. You are really unlikely to die with just Avatar up in pretty much any situation.
2) Ignore Pain of GCD, a lot of people talk about how it made class more reactive and so on. However, the real value of it is Anger Management. You brush off 4s of your Avatar and Demoralizing Shout every time you click the button and you dont have to skip anything in your dps rotation. You even spam Ignore Pain when you are offtanking in raids or treants/elemental are tanking the mobs in M+. It makes Avatar come off cooldown so much quickier.

I personally started playing Prot Warrior like a month ago and I can keep 35% Avatar uptime throughout combat in dungeons without any problems. Better players do like 40%, even 45% in some cases. Making Anger Management inactive while you are in Avatar would be muuuuch bigger nerf than reduction in damage.

I honestly think if they are able to make Seraphin+Blessed hammer work in m+ Prot paladins will be able to compete with Prot warriors with that nerf, Hot Turb seems, on paper, super strong in high keys.

But yes Avatar + Anger managment is what makes the spec right now. Ideally we would play in a world where they revert the GCD but oh well....