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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Gungnir View Post
    That's because the game was made 14 years ago, back when the MMORPG genre wasn't the same cookie-cutter endorphine flowchart that's tailor made for optimal profit.
    If anything, it's closer to an actual immersive RPG game.
    If you don't like it, then you shouldn't play it. You still have retail there for you and your tastes.


    Also, say what you will about the rock-paper-scissors approach but it did give a whole lot more meaning to a battle if you did manage to win against the classes you have difficulties with.
    Yeah it meant that the person you just beat was so unbelievably bad that a pair of scissors lost to a piece of paper.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Baracuda View Post
    Maybe it was different in BC (when I started) but I don't remember losing often to rogues as a warrior, despite mostly PvPing.
    warriors became monsters in tbc and unless you were a really good rogue you couldn't stand toe to toe with one. Only really way to win was by kiting them in their dead zone (think it was between 5 and 8 yards, 5 yards is their melee range, 8 yards is charge.. or maybe it was 12 yards..idk) which was really hard on top of the omnipresent server lag which made it even harder.

    It was the same thing mages did vs warriors. If you went toe to toe with one, you'd die within 10 seconds. But if you were really good, you could kite them for a minute or so and kill them over time
    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Oberyn Martell View Post
    Islam is a race. End of discussion.
    Nazi btw

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Sliske View Post
    Yeah it meant that the person you just beat was so unbelievably bad that a pair of scissors lost to a piece of paper.
    Not necessarily.
    There's about a million different variables to take into account in a 1v1 and everyone can make mistakes, knowing the variables of your specific matchup and identifying the tools you have at hand and how to utilize them can net you a win even against good players.

    It's very facetious to say that Vanilla was a flowchart cast in titanium, because in reality it was a lot more fluid in whom could beat whom.
    Not to mention that it will be set in 1.12, which is VASTLY different in regards to powerlevels compared to any other patches in Vanillas cycle.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Gungnir View Post
    Not necessarily.
    There's about a million different variables to take into account in a 1v1 and everyone can make mistakes, knowing the variables of your specific matchup and identifying the tools you have at hand and how to utilize them can net you a win even against good players.

    It's very facetious to say that Vanilla was a flowchart cast in titanium, because in reality it was a lot more fluid in whom could beat whom.
    Not to mention that it will be set in 1.12, which is VASTLY different in regards to powerlevels compared to any other patches in Vanillas cycle.
    For the entirety of cataclysm i did basically nothing but duel people as a survival hunter outside of orgrimmar. I beat gladiators with 40 item levels higher than me just because of their class. I kited gladiator warriors and feral druids so much that they didnt land a single auto attack on me (other than the feral opener.)

    1v1 is so whack that this shit is easily done. All i would do is trap them, if they trinketed i'd wyvern them and then i'd walk to max range and kite them to death. If they came near me i'd disengage away or scatter shot them and walk away. Next time they did it i'd trap them. If they were a feral i'd use scare beast.

    People thought i was a dueling god - i was running around in 352 ilvl blue gear 100-0'ing gladiators with 416 ilvl gurthalaks.

    I am a very good player, sure, but it was 90% class. If i dueled an affliction warlock the exact same thing would happen to me. I found it harder to duel keyboard turning affliction warlocks and boomkins than i did multi rank 1 gladiators in <Bleached Bones> and <Do Nothing And Win>

    So yeah, i know a thing or two about 1v1s and i can tell you i was doing the same in vanilla, but not as much as i did in cata.

    Vanilla was exactly the same. If you were scissors fighting paper, it was like man handling a toddler. Unless you get DDOS'd you aren't going to lose.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Oberyn Martell View Post
    Islam is a race. End of discussion.
    Nazi btw

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Sliske View Post
    For the entirety of cataclysm i did basically nothing but duel people as a survival hunter outside of orgrimmar. I beat gladiators with 40 item levels higher than me just because of their class. I kited gladiator warriors and feral druids so much that they didnt land a single auto attack on me (other than the feral opener.)

    1v1 is so whack that this shit is easily done. All i would do is trap them, if they trinketed i'd wyvern them and then i'd walk to max range and kite them to death. If they came near me i'd disengage away or scatter shot them and walk away. Next time they did it i'd trap them. If they were a feral i'd use scare beast.

    People thought i was a dueling god - i was running around in 352 ilvl blue gear 100-0'ing gladiators with 416 ilvl gurthalaks.

    I am a very good player, sure, but it was 90% class. If i dueled an affliction warlock the exact same thing would happen to me. I found it harder to duel keyboard turning affliction warlocks and boomkins than i did multi rank 1 gladiators in <Bleached Bones> and <Do Nothing And Win>

    So yeah, i know a thing or two about 1v1s and i can tell you i was doing the same in vanilla, but not as much as i did in cata.

    Vanilla was exactly the same. If you were scissors fighting paper, it was like man handling a toddler. Unless you get DDOS'd you aren't going to lose.
    So, not only did you not really even attempt to read what I wrote, but you tried to apply some form of "experience" from a different expansion that's also heavily questionable in every manner of the word.

    By your extended logic, no matter who plays a rogue, they should win 99 out of 100 duels in Vanilla regardless of gear levels.


    Not sure if you're being facetious, willfully obtuse or just try to hyperbole your way into making people believe what you say, despise the fact that you seemingly don't have much experience from back then.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Gungnir View Post
    So, not only did you not really even attempt to read what I wrote, but you tried to apply some form of "experience" from a different expansion that's also heavily questionable in every manner of the word.

    By your extended logic, no matter who plays a rogue, they should win 99 out of 100 duels in Vanilla regardless of gear levels.


    Not sure if you're being facetious, willfully obtuse or just try to hyperbole your way into making people believe what you say, despise the fact that you seemingly don't have much experience from back then.
    it was really easy to win duels while naked as a rogue in vanilla. Thats my entire point - the paper doesn't care if its fighting a sharp pair of scissors or a blunt pair of scissors. Its still scissors and those scissors are going to fuck it up.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Oberyn Martell View Post
    Islam is a race. End of discussion.
    Nazi btw

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Sliske View Post
    it was really easy to win duels while naked as a rogue in vanilla. Thats my entire point - the paper doesn't care if its fighting a sharp pair of scissors or a blunt pair of scissors. Its still scissors and those scissors are going to fuck it up.
    You do realize that the World of Roguecraft videos was built around a meme-spec that doesn't even function in 1.12?


    Yes you have advantages in certain matchups depending on your class, but it isn't as dire as people make it out to be.
    I played a warlock fulltime back then, for all intents and purposes I shouldn't have been able to won any 1v1's against rogues on paper, as warlocks are by far the most susceptible to stuns aswell. But guess what, a lot of warlocks won against rogues, even when equally skilled.
    Especially towards the later patches, for example 1.12, where a lot of the power that the rogues became notorious for had been tuned back.

    It really never was a cut and dry answer as to who would win in a fight.
    I'd also say that the most extreme examples of "oh you're losing this for sure" matchups weren't even in Vanilla. Early DK's and Ret paladins in WotLK, Sub rogues with the DS trinket in Cata etc were more one-sided than Vanilla.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Sliske View Post
    it was really easy to win duels while naked as a rogue in vanilla. Thats my entire point - the paper doesn't care if its fighting a sharp pair of scissors or a blunt pair of scissors. Its still scissors and those scissors are going to fuck it up.
    "really easy", ye no. Rogues was strong in 1v1, and could win most fights if played correctly. But doing it naked ment doing it without any mistakes.
    Quote Originally Posted by atenime45 View Post
    The 10% reward. It's was unspoken rule that you DONT attack other faction so everyone could enjoy the 10% reward. But now no one cares about that anymore

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Gungnir View Post
    If we're assuming that they're all equally skilled, and at a high skill level..

    Solo;
    1. Warlock/mage.
    2. Shadowpriest.
    3. Rogue.
    4. Hunter.
    5. Druids.

    Meme aside, a well-specced and well played druid was disgustingly effective in 1v1. There are some good videos around by Stormx IIRC.

    Group;
    1. Warrior.
    2. Mage.
    3. Warlock.
    4. Rogue.
    5. Paladin.

    I've based the group ratings on impact, ability to shut down enemies and CC capabilities. Warrior basically just tops the charts if they're geared and healed, they get obnoxiously dangerous.


    EDIT; this is from a warlock main POV, so it might be a bit coloured by the classes and players I had the most difficulty with or that I saw did great things. It's hard to make a purely objective list since there are millions of variables to take into account.
    This is the only accurate list so far, the others are absolutely wacky. Although for group PVP, I would say:

    1. Warrior.
    2. Mage.
    3. Paladin
    4. Priest
    5. Shaman

  9. #69
    Context is key

    Solo 1v1 outside Orgrimmar or Ironforge? Yeah, frost mage, rogue, shadow priest and warlock is probably gonna top the list. Gear and skill not being factors. Hunter is nearly unable to cope with the extremely limited space in duels, relying on ending the ordeal as quickly as possible, having been robbed off the greatest strength which is the furthest reach in the game.

    Solo fighting in the open world for relevant objectives, such as Devilsaurs? A night elf hunter is gonna be your worst enemy, or your best friend depending on which faction you are in. A rogue will have to leave invisibility in order to engage, while a hunter can send his or her feline pet (which also has invisibility) without revealing him or herself. At the stage when Devilsaur farming is relevant, beast master pets are devastating in the open outside world.

    For mass open pvp, happening around world bosses with 40+ people on each side? Hunter is probably gonna be your players with the highest impact on the outcome, with it's highest range in the game. Further than the range of Mages Blizzard, which is extremely important. As there can be no all out assault if a choke point is defended by even a single mage channeling Blizzard. If the opposing side has engaged the boss, hunters can send in pet (CC immune if beast master talented) and drain mana with viper sting which cannot be recovered as the healers are in combat. Frost mages come after, with the amazing zoning potential and the aoe damage as the fight begins. Followed by Paladins providing cleanse, blessing of wisdom (very important in world boss pvp) and powerful heals.


    All in all, i would say Paladins and frost mages are the two most valuable players in a WSG or AB. Being very capable in whatever situation they may find themselves in. Priest being a close 3rd.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Noxina View Post
    You seem to expect a lot out of people.
    Literally no I do not lol.

    Sure, rogues in Classic will be better than the average rogue back in Vanilla, but still, all opponents will be just as good. Time will tell.
    You show me how you can 'be better' than long CC chains and focused, dependable burst that ignores stats and I'll show you a good time.

    I like how phrased that second part "Most pople know how to, they just dont know how to actually do it". So they don't know how?
    Read: Most people know how to kite a warrior but don't exactly know how to do it. They know what it takes (staying in the dead zone) but aren't mechanically skilled at it. Kind of like people know what it takes to fire a gun, but lack the technical skill to hit a target. Understanding the basic concept puts you in a much better place to learn/understand than someone who doesn't even know what the concept is, such as 99% of the people in Vanilla who would have never dreamed of fighting a Warrior by kiting them in their deadzone.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by bigsav1 View Post
    Shocks had a cooldown in vanilla so I highly doubt you ever met a "frost shock spamming" shaman in vanilla. It's almost like most people who act like they know what they're talking about know the least amount.
    Dont be an idiot - thats never the case. Anyways, on topic, Unholy DK for sure - i never lost a single fight as UH in vanilla.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by therealstegblob View Post
    Literally no I do not lol.



    You show me how you can 'be better' than long CC chains and focused, dependable burst that ignores stats and I'll show you a good time.



    Read: Most people know how to kite a warrior but don't exactly know how to do it. They know what it takes (staying in the dead zone) but aren't mechanically skilled at it. Kind of like people know what it takes to fire a gun, but lack the technical skill to hit a target. Understanding the basic concept puts you in a much better place to learn/understand than someone who doesn't even know what the concept is, such as 99% of the people in Vanilla who would have never dreamed of fighting a Warrior by kiting them in their deadzone.
    Personally, I don't even except most rogues to be able to do a proper opener with Vanish and Thistletea. I got a feeling there will be a lot of "FotM" Rogues, because they know they are strong. Same thing with mages. Can't wait for fight them.

    Ah, I guess I didn't understand that last part well enough then, my bad. I agree with you now, as I've been saying - I don't except most rogues to know how to play at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by atenime45 View Post
    The 10% reward. It's was unspoken rule that you DONT attack other faction so everyone could enjoy the 10% reward. But now no one cares about that anymore

  13. #73
    I played shadow priest and I honestly never really struggled in duels. The only opponents that annoyed me were undead rogues since they would cancel my first fear. Nevertheless, spamming shields allowed me to survive most cheap shot into kidney shot openings.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Dont be an idiot - thats never the case. Anyways, on topic, Unholy DK for sure - i never lost a single fight as UH in vanilla.
    LOL, amazing seeing as DK's came out in WoTLK

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Sosua View Post
    LOL, amazing seeing as DK's came out in WoTLK
    Now I might be wrong here, but I do believe he made a joke.
    Quote Originally Posted by atenime45 View Post
    The 10% reward. It's was unspoken rule that you DONT attack other faction so everyone could enjoy the 10% reward. But now no one cares about that anymore

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Noxina View Post
    Personally, I don't even except most rogues to be able to do a proper opener with Vanish and Thistletea. I got a feeling there will be a lot of "FotM" Rogues, because they know they are strong. Same thing with mages. Can't wait for fight them.
    Dude, people didn't even use Google in 2005. There's not a single shred of information that even the most casual of player won't be privy to, or won't know how to look up. Detailed guides for how to play Rogue are going to pollute YouTube, and popular far-reaching content creators are going to make tons of videos about HOW TO OPEN IN DUELS AS ROGUE (CLASSIC WOW).

    Information will likely never change, as the game won't receive significant changes, so even 5 years later the same guides will still be totally relevant, unlike today when major things can change between patches and especially expansions. Even IF people are super ignorant at first, it's not going to last very long lol. By the time Classic is a year old 99% of its players are going to be hardened veterans (comprised of new Classic players and many returning Vanilla/Private Server vets). You think anyone is going to not know how to use Thistle Tea then?
    Last edited by therealstegblob; 2019-03-07 at 01:40 AM.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by therealstegblob View Post
    Dude, people didn't even use Google in 2005. There's not a single shred of information that even the most casual of player won't be privy to, or won't know how to look up. Detailed guides for how to play Rogue are going to pollute YouTube, and popular far-reaching content creators are going to make tons of videos about HOW TO OPEN IN DUELS AS ROGUE (CLASSIC WOW).

    Information will likely never change, as the game won't receive significant changes, so even 5 years later the same guides will still be totally relevant, unlike today when major things can change between patches and especially expansions. Even IF people are super ignorant at first, it's not going to last very long lol. By the time Classic is a year old 99% of its players are going to be hardened veterans (comprised of new Classic players and many returning Vanilla/Private Server vets). You think anyone is going to not know how to use Thistle Tea then?
    Very well stated. There are going to be a lot of veterans and private server players coming in to classic. I remember making Hunter's who would sit in Flares on top of their traps mad by using the Barov Peasant Caller on them. It won't take long until other players figure this out since the learning curve isn't going to be there like it was when vanilla launched.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by therealstegblob View Post
    Dude, people didn't even use Google in 2005. There's not a single shred of information that even the most casual of player won't be privy to, or won't know how to look up. Detailed guides for how to play Rogue are going to pollute YouTube, and popular far-reaching content creators are going to make tons of videos about HOW TO OPEN IN DUELS AS ROGUE (CLASSIC WOW).

    Information will likely never change, as the game won't receive significant changes, so even 5 years later the same guides will still be totally relevant, unlike today when major things can change between patches and especially expansions. Even IF people are super ignorant at first, it's not going to last very long lol. By the time Classic is a year old 99% of its players are going to be hardened veterans (comprised of new Classic players and many returning Vanilla/Private Server vets). You think anyone is going to not know how to use Thistle Tea then?
    And there are guides for retail WoW on how to play rogues, I still see shitty rogues who can't do a proper opener in BFA.
    Quote Originally Posted by atenime45 View Post
    The 10% reward. It's was unspoken rule that you DONT attack other faction so everyone could enjoy the 10% reward. But now no one cares about that anymore

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Noxina View Post
    And there are guides for retail WoW on how to play rogues, I still see shitty rogues who can't do a proper opener in BFA.
    And those Rogues are much fewer and far between than bad Rogues were in Vanilla.

  20. #80
    I'll probably do the R14 grind again on a shaman. During those days a good rogue or warlock would only cause me problems.

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