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  1. #141
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertMugabe View Post
    I haven't seen a comparison this stupid in a very long time. The first "statement" is a complaint about the toolkit and playstyle of a class/spec and the other one is about dps. You can obviously have the same DPS, but a different rotation or a different set of cooldowns.
    Sigh... given your name I shouldn't be surprised at the arrogance I suppose.

    If people all want to be the same DPS the tendency is to give them very similar tools. If you don't, you have people complaining that X out bursts them in M+ (actual complaint in the Druid section recently) or you have people complaining that they don't do great AOE or they do great AOE but ST sucks or...

    You can give the spells different names and animations, but they tend to converge in what they do.

    Also, fuck right off you utter tool.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    Sigh... given your name I shouldn't be surprised at the arrogance I suppose.

    If people all want to be the same DPS the tendency is to give them very similar tools. If you don't, you have people complaining that X out bursts them in M+ (actual complaint in the Druid section recently) or you have people complaining that they don't do great AOE or they do great AOE but ST sucks or...

    You can give the spells different names and animations, but they tend to converge in what they do.

    Also, fuck right off you utter tool.
    Which just isn't true. Classes can very well have very different rotations (as they do right now) and different types of utility (some can kick, silence, incapactitate, fear... some others offer extra quirks such as passive buffs or combat ress etc).

    And no, your stupid insults don't make your argument any better. It just makes you look even more triggered and clueless. You made a stupid comparison and that's it, don't take it personally ffs, grow up.

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Marrilaife View Post
    So prot warriors had 2 moments of glory since legion (1 in emerald nightmare and 1 now especially in m+ everyone's swapping to prot warriors), veng dh had none, always outclassed by other tanks, and paladins were consistently middle of the pack or below average.
    Nobody is saying Vengeance or Paladin shouldn't be buffed, what I am saying though is that a tank that has been garbage for 4-5 years is actually wanted now. And I wouldn't call 2 weeks a moment of glory.

  4. #144
    Pandaren Monk Strikeywikey's Avatar
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    Theres nothing wrong with classes being equal across a raid. Each class has its strengths and weaknesses and some will prove to be more valuable even if overall the dps is the same.

    Theres more of a problem when theres a clear gap between classes but even then it's not stopping you from performing well. I always see people complain that they can't do good dps because they're underpowered, yet get 50% parses. I also see the vice versa, people saying that you're only doing well because you're playing a broken spec, but they're getting 95% parses.

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Emerald Archer View Post
    It's really fun when people talk about specs they have no idea about.

    Gingi was BM for escorting duty, a role people have quickly realised is not actually needed. Dmg wise, BM is bad and is only going to get worse. The more comfortable people get with fights (whether on long prog bosses like jaina or on farm, though farm is pretty meaningless) and the more gear people get, the worse BM will get. BM still scales VERY badly.

    It's not like how things are now, is how things will stay. BM is actively getting worse comparatively, each week of gear people get.

    Those who still play BM, do so because either they can't movement manage, their MM gear is very bad and their BM gear is good, they don't care about playing what's best or good or decent or they're delusional and think BMs mobility makes them do more dmg than other specs.

    In saying that, the worse you are, or your guild is, the better BM will be/look. So for lower level guilds, it's a 100% viable option, because of how easy BM is in raid, and how tanky it is, making it really good for lower guilds where your healers tend to be pretty bad.
    This is seriously mind-boggingly. What does it matter if BM falls behind AFTER prog? Is parsing really that important? And behind, you mean they'll be a couple K behind on average from the best specs? The very very top parses sure will be skewed towards the OPs, but for the vast majority of people it doesn't matter. BM does fine dmg right now and especially during prog when everyone is still learning to time their damage and proper movement/ability timings. That's what matters. Not 1 day farm nights but--you know--prog, the whole point of raiding. If you are at the level where you get enough gear yet are still progging through the raid, damage differences between classes is going to be minimal anyways. Please do us all a favor and print out the T23 simcraft results and frame it on your fridge while you ree about class imbalance. Just so we all know where you stand.
    Last edited by Flazian; 2019-02-21 at 12:24 AM.

  6. #146
    It's really not. Considering the sheer amount of variables going on in this game, a +/- 10% spread between classes is fine overall. BM and Death Knights could use a buff and Spriests/locks could use a nerf, but I'm not sure how much of the latter is only down to the raid having several spread cleave fights that allows ranged dot specs to pad the hell out of meters.

    The balance IS rather bad in high tier M+, but that's completely unavoidable due to its 5 man state in a game with 12 classes and 36 specs. Blizzard would need to completely gut Rogues to make them no longer wanted in M+, for example, and that shouldn't happen.

  7. #147
    At the end of the day, if you're not in the race for world first, play the spec you enjoy, not what's considered meta for the content you're doing.

    I was originally one of those players who always had to be playing the FOTM tank for the current tier, and it was absolutely fucking miserable having to re-gear a new class/spec constantly.

    I eventually said fuck all that and just decided to play the class I enjoy instead, I'm currently rocking a Prot Paladin and while it's not considered the best tank for M+ or Raids, I'm having a blast with it and doing more than fine as a tank for my guild.

    You can clear all content with specs that are considered to be underperforming, it may take a bit more effort, but you'll have more fun doing it than forcing yourself to play a spec you might not enjoy just because it pushes out better numbers.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Blizzard would need to completely gut Rogues to make them no longer wanted in M+, for example, and that shouldn't happen.
    You don't have to "gut" rogues, you could:
    - give mass stealth to another class, similarly how mages / hunters got access to bloodlust so it's no longer shaman exclusive, and dks / warlocks got combat rez so it's no longer druid exclusive (imagine if druids were still the only cr class how would that shape m+ meta, and no engi item isn't great it has much much longer cast time and absolutely horrendous small range in comparison to class abilities to cr)
    - buff invis pots to match cd with shroud (atm they made them lock combat pots for 5 mins, but another invis pot still for 10 mins) and only lock combat pot for 1 min like every other pot

    Rogues would still have high popularity due to things like tricks, cloak, cheat death, stuns, burst aoe (outlaw), sap that doesn't put you in combat contrary to sheep / hex / repentance / paralyze so allowing easier skips, and would still be must have for niche situations like tol dagor, but it would be less of a case "must have a rogue or bust".

    One class that I'd spitefully like to see gutted is havoc dh though, a spec with no weaknesses is a spit to the face when Blizzard claims every spec should have strengths and weaknesses, it's also auto include in everything, it provides a mandatory buff for more classes than monks (more classes do magic damage than physical) that cannot be replicated with a consumable unlike warrior or mage buff, and it literally has everything, single target, aoe, burst, mobility, cc (aoe stun, st stun and prison which is only other one after sap that doesn't put you in combat), defensives, immunity, and after all this Blizzard decided to give them purge and magic debuff... rly...

    DHs definitely need some trimming of their strengths. Other melee classes like warriors for example need extra utility. Some melee classes are nearly there, like windwalkers, they would be used much more if the rogue + dh meta wasn't inhibiting majority of melee spots.

    Another problem with DH is they seem to have 2 specs, but due to state of havoc being op and vengeance being underpowered it feels like the class has only 1 spec, but Blizzard doesn't seem to give 2 shits about vengeance as long as havoc is so popular their "class representation" numbers are fine. In the same manner as they usually don't care about feral druids as long as balance / resto is good. Makes me wonder why even have 2 specs of a demon hunter if all the love went into one.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Marrilaife View Post
    You don't have to "gut" rogues, you could:
    - give mass stealth to another class, similarly how mages / hunters got access to bloodlust so it's no longer shaman exclusive, and dks / warlocks got combat rez so it's no longer druid exclusive (imagine if druids were still the only cr class how would that shape m+ meta, and no engi item isn't great it has much much longer cast time and absolutely horrendous small range in comparison to class abilities to cr)
    - buff invis pots to match cd with shroud (atm they made them lock combat pots for 5 mins, but another invis pot still for 10 mins) and only lock combat pot for 1 min like every other pot

    Rogues would still have high popularity due to things like tricks, cloak, cheat death, stuns, burst aoe (outlaw), sap that doesn't put you in combat contrary to sheep / hex / repentance / paralyze so allowing easier skips, and would still be must have for niche situations like tol dagor, but it would be less of a case "must have a rogue or bust".

    One class that I'd spitefully like to see gutted is havoc dh though, a spec with no weaknesses is a spit to the face when Blizzard claims every spec should have strengths and weaknesses, it's also auto include in everything, it provides a mandatory buff for more classes than monks (more classes do magic damage than physical) that cannot be replicated with a consumable unlike warrior or mage buff, and it literally has everything, single target, aoe, burst, mobility, cc (aoe stun, st stun and prison which is only other one after sap that doesn't put you in combat), defensives, immunity, and after all this Blizzard decided to give them purge and magic debuff... rly...

    DHs definitely need some trimming of their strengths. Other melee classes like warriors for example need extra utility. Some melee classes are nearly there, like windwalkers, they would be used much more if the rogue + dh meta wasn't inhibiting majority of melee spots.

    Another problem with DH is they seem to have 2 specs, but due to state of havoc being op and vengeance being underpowered it feels like the class has only 1 spec, but Blizzard doesn't seem to give 2 shits about vengeance as long as havoc is so popular their "class representation" numbers are fine. In the same manner as they usually don't care about feral druids as long as balance / resto is good. Makes me wonder why even have 2 specs of a demon hunter if all the love went into one.
    I mean, you yourself listed a whole bunch of reasons Rogues would still be amazing. They still have better defensives, mobility, CC, and utility than any other melee by a mile even if you give Shroud to ever spec in the game. It would reduce their appeal, sure, but what do you replace them with in very high keys? Warriors, who have limited utility and next to no CC? DKs who lack mobility and also not the best CC and whose grips are often covered by the tank? Pallies who just don't do many things very well apart from niche utility? Enhancem- hahahaha I can't even do that as a joke. Point is, if Rogues fall out of favor they will just get replaced by ranged unless a situation like Tier 21 Windwalkers arises where their damage is so high it can't be passed up.

    I'm all for the change you propose, but I doubt it would be anywhere near enough. Balance is always going to be a big issue in M+ sadly, there's just no way to include 36 specs in a 5 man meta.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    I mean, you yourself listed a whole bunch of reasons Rogues would still be amazing. They still have better defensives, mobility, CC, and utility than any other melee by a mile even if you give Shroud to ever spec in the game. It would reduce their appeal, sure, but what do you replace them with in very high keys? Warriors, who have limited utility and next to no CC? DKs who lack mobility and also not the best CC and whose grips are often covered by the tank? Pallies who just don't do many things very well apart from niche utility? Enhancem- hahahaha I can't even do that as a joke. Point is, if Rogues fall out of favor they will just get replaced by ranged unless a situation like Tier 21 Windwalkers arises where their damage is so high it can't be passed up.

    I'm all for the change you propose, but I doubt it would be anywhere near enough. Balance is always going to be a big issue in M+ sadly, there's just no way to include 36 specs in a 5 man meta.
    You could reduce the gap though. Especially in the utility department, there are high r.io scored dps warriors, spriests and other classes that don't bring much except raw damage, but they need a team that will work around them and cover that weakness. Or you could ensure that high utility classes pay in lower dps, good example are boomkins, they have great utility, but their damage is fairly slow to ramp up, they used to be "must have" but now as the reaping brings more spotlight on burst aoe, some other classes take the boomkin spot, it became a tradeoff do I want a cr / innervate / treants / typhoon etc. package, or do I want to bring a dps turret, demo locks, spriests and ele shamans all rose in popularity in comparison to season 1.

    And yes, melee like shamans or pallies could be in a much better spot if only Blizzard wanted them to be. They were meant to be utility / support classes. If DH wasn't such a great "all in 1" package. Shamans have bloodlust, aoe stun, spammable purge, hex, situational utility like slow totem or tremor, but they're usually held back by limited aoe dps or lack of good defensives. Somehow most enhancement defensives ended up as pvp talents.

  11. #151
    You would think that the people in charge of class tuning are the ones that got fired with how silent they have been.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    It's really not. Considering the sheer amount of variables going on in this game, a +/- 10% spread between classes is fine overall..
    It's much more than 10% in raiding and hugely more than 10% in M+.

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st.../21#dataset=90

    ^^^ The difference between the top and bottom specs in Mythic raids is more like 20-25%

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/20

    ^^^ the difference between top and bottom specs in Mythic+ is more like 100%.

    That's way too big of a gap, especially in M+.

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    It's much more than 10% in raiding and hugely more than 10% in M+.

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st.../21#dataset=90

    ^^^ The difference between the top and bottom specs in Mythic raids is more like 20-25%

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/20

    ^^^ the difference between top and bottom specs in Mythic+ is more like 100%.

    That's way too big of a gap, especially in M+.
    Because Blizzard doesnt work with retarded logs.

    Blizzard balance is for progression, what someone does for logs is completely irrelevant.

    Every player with half a brain and some raiding experience knows that logs are skewed INSANELY, thats why you ignore every log apart from progression logs.

    But this is WoW 2019, where knowing basic math and reading a log is hard.

    BM hunters have always been last and will always be last because they are the only class that can have 100% DPS uptime even while making coffee in the kitchen, which is insanely important for progression and obviously looks back 2 months after when everyone got new gear, and they stand IN EVERYTHING AND PLAY PATCHWERK fight in order to do a log.

    There always some outliers, like Boomkin and their AoE, Shroud of Darkness gimmicks and DH utility in this expansion that really annoy me too, but its simple.

    What the 0.1% does, does not affect the other 99.9%, and they arent gonna change things because of the 0.1%.

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...&timespan=1000

    You can see 20 days ago where people were still progressing how every class is in the 10% (Apart from BM hunters but the reasoning is above), now that they arent and they can start the gimmicks, things are getting skewed.
    Last edited by potis; 2019-02-28 at 12:59 AM.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    Because Blizzard doesnt work with retarded logs.

    Blizzard balance is for progression, what someone does for logs is completely irrelevant.

    Every player with half a brain and some raiding experience knows that logs are skewed INSANELY, thats why you ignore every log apart from progression logs.

    But this is WoW 2019, where knowing basic math and reading a log is hard.

    BM hunters have always been last and will always be last because they are the only class that can have 100% DPS uptime even while making coffee in the kitchen, which is insanely important for progression and obviously looks back 2 months after when everyone got new gear, and they stand IN EVERYTHING AND PLAY PATCHWERK fight in order to do a log.

    There always some outliers, like Boomkin and their AoE, Shroud of Darkness gimmicks and DH utility in this expansion, but its simple.

    What the 0.1% does, does not affect the other 99.9%, and they arent gonna change things because of the 0.1%.

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...t=90×pan=1000

    You can see 20 days ago where people were still progressing how every class is in the 10% (Apart from BM hunters but the reasoning is above), now that they arent and they can start the gimmicks, things are getting skewed.
    i cant really make sense out of anything in this post, but you dont even need to look at the logs to see the statistics for M+. there are 500k havoc dh parses in that data set, while 10+ dps specs cant even break 100k (sub rogues at 7k lol) something is wrong here...
    <Formality> of Proudmoore 13/13M -- US 26 MW Monk
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  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Natureseer View Post
    i cant really make sense out of anything in this post, but you dont even need to look at the logs to see the statistics for M+. there are 500k havoc dh parses in that data set, while 10+ dps specs cant even break 100k (sub rogues at 7k lol) something is wrong here...
    What cant you make sense? That Blizzard isnt gonna balance all classes to what MDI does?

    Some people need to really understand that a very tiny minority posts logs, and a very tiny minority does M+ to a high level.

    M+ is fucked because fake-competitive bullshit.

    Add some yard range limit of teleport the tank, and "We can see your Shroud" mobs and there goes your MDI.

    I am not showing those numbers dont matter, but $$ matters more, and they wont tryhard to balance something that doesnt need balancing in order for <Insert the name of 1000 players here in each region> doesnt feel butthurt.

    Yeah, DH utility is stupid in this expansion, no one can say otherwise, but what can you do?

    Its not mandatory to take a DH to clean your +10, or even your +15.
    Last edited by potis; 2019-02-28 at 01:12 AM.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    What cant you make sense? That Blizzard isnt gonna balance all classes to what MDI does?

    Some people need to really understand that a very tiny minority posts logs, and a very tiny minority does M+ to a high level.

    M+ is fucked because fake-competitive bullshit.

    Add some yard range limit of teleport the tank, and "We can see your Shroud" mobs and there goes your MDI.

    I am not showing those numbers dont matter, but $$ matters more, and they wont tryhard to balance something that doesnt need balancing in order for <Insert the name of 1000 players here in each region> doesnt feel butthurt.

    Yeah, DH utility is stupid in this expansion, no one can say otherwise, but what can you do?

    Its not mandatory to take a DH to clean your +10, or even your +15.
    i definitely get the point your making that the highest end damage that makes or breaks your time only _really_ matters in the highest end M+ keys, but for people like me who just farm 10s and 11s with a small group of friends, it still feels pretty terrible getting utterly destroyed on my moonkin and ww monk (which arent even that bad!) by combat rogues who press blade flurry and attack 1 mob, or dhs deleting reaping in 1 eye beam+death sweep combo.
    <Formality> of Proudmoore 13/13M -- US 26 MW Monk
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  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    BM hunters have always been last and will always be last because they are the only class that can have 100% DPS uptime even while making coffee in the kitchen, .
    This isn't true though. There is a lengthy discussion about it in the hunter forum. BM hunters were one of the top DPS specs for progression in Uldir. The problem with BM is that it always gets worse the more ilvl increases, because Blizzard haven't yet worked out how to scale pet damage properly.

    The mythic+ parses aren't even logs, they are an average of points scored. So they have nothing to do with DPS and everything to do with how much certain specs actually help you succeed.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post

    Some people need to really understand that a very tiny minority posts logs, and a very tiny minority does M+ to a high level.
    But the M+ statistics don't come from logs. They come from Blizzard's list of completed keys.

  18. #158
    I find it interesting that many classes say their spec is terrible. Blizz doesn't seem content when the class is going well...they have to fook it up and nerf it. Dks say their specs are bad...hunters are whining..priests complaining bout healing ...etc. Blizz ignores players pleas to stop nerfing good things.
    The hunter hoe with the least beloe.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    But the M+ statistics don't come from logs. They come from Blizzard's list of completed keys.
    The standings you linked are based on uploaded logs.

    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    The mythic+ parses aren't even logs, they are an average of points scored. So they have nothing to do with DPS and everything to do with how much certain specs actually help you succeed.
    The points are based on key levels of uploaded logs, and then on the overall DPS of players in the group.

    It's hard to tell anything from these statistics. Most players don't even bother logging and uploading their M+ runs.

  20. #160
    As specs get more gear we're really seeing the imbalance take off.

    Demo warlocks are now doing 22% more damage at 75th percentile than BM hunters overall in mythic.

    Gets even worse at 90th/95th/99th. At 99th Demo Warlock does 25% more damage than BM hunter.

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/21#
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st.../21#dataset=90
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st.../21#dataset=99

    A 25% spread between top and bottom is like burning crusade levels of balance.
    Last edited by Nitros14; 2019-03-03 at 06:50 AM.

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