The state of spec balance is terrible.

[Nitros14]

Yeah, I play Unholy, most of the variance is due to spread cleave, which favours Spriest and Locks. It's not that bad

I want to point out that on mythic Mekkatorque, a purely single target fight, elemental shaman and affliction warlock are top 3 and shadow priest is top 5. Notably above specs that are basically only decent on single target and can't cleave or split cleave.

[Aktec]

I want to point out that on mythic Mekkatorque, a purely single target fight, elemental shaman and affliction warlock are top 3 and shadow priest is top 5. Notably above specs that are basically only decent on single target and can't cleave or split cleave.

Agreed, there should be some compramise between specs with some doing better at split cleave some better at standard cleave some at pure st etc. When you have classes that excel at everything there is a failure in class design and balance.

[Th3Scourge]

I want to point out that on mythic Mekkatorque, a purely single target fight, elemental shaman and affliction warlock are top 3 and shadow priest is top 5. Notably above specs that are basically only decent on single target and can't cleave or split cleave.

No shit they are and do you know why? They can generate resources from dotting the adds. That is why those classes excel on sustained multi-target spread cleave fights.

[Iskariott]

In both raids and mythic+.

This expansion has really dropped the ball.

So many dead specs.

i have seen so many threads like this before. i would like to see some mathamitical statements, charts or reasons. this statement alone is nice and all...

[Nitros14]

No shit they are and do you know why? They can generate resources from dotting the adds. That is why those classes excel on sustained multi-target spread cleave fights.

You'd think Blizzard would balance around designing a raid full of absolutely nothing but fights that favour multidot specs.

It's not like there's some other raid out right now they have to balance around and their mythic+ balance is total garbage anyway.

Or I guess half the specs in the game should just be subpar on literally all relevant content and not excel at anything while spriests and warlocks excel at literally every single fight for six months.

There's basically not a single fight in Dazar'alor where mage, hunter or death knight gets to feel "wow I'm awesome glad I'm playing this class." but plenty where they're the worst in the raid.

[durrtygoodz]

I mean you kinda have to take one warrior and one mage not because they're not bad but because you're leaving 3% damage on the table either way.

Outlaw being good doesn't make Sub not a dead spec.

I'm actually not sure why you're taking BM hunters though.

Don't you suppose that warrior and mage are being held back numbers-wise because they bring a mandatory buff?

Maybe sub is dead but it doesn't matter when the class has 3 dps specs. You only need one to be good.

We take a BM hunter because there are mechanics on Jaina that are best handled by a BM hunter, most notably going out with the tank with avalanche in p2. Damage isn't everything in progress.

[Nitros14]

Don't you suppose that warrior and mage are being held back numbers-wise because they bring a mandatory buff?

Demon Hunters bring an even more mandatory buff and do much better damage. If that's the design it's sure inconsistent.

And if we're going along with that argument about Sub you can always play a different class too. Doesn't mean it sucks less if you want to play Sub. This is a thread about spec balance not class balance.

[Th3Scourge]

You'd think Blizzard would balance around designing a raid full of absolutely nothing but fights that favour multidot specs.

It's not like there's some other raid out right now they have to balance around and their mythic+ balance is total garbage anyway.

Or I guess half the specs in the game should just be subpar on literally all relevant content and not excel at anything while spriests and warlocks excel at literally every single fight for six months.

There's basically not a single fight in Dazar'alor where mage, hunter or death knight gets to feel "wow I'm awesome glad I'm playing this class." but plenty where they're the worst in the raid.

I feel OP as fuck on Opulence with the opal gem. DKs also destroyed many fights in Uldir. There aren't many specs I'd say are subpar - well besides Arms warriors lol

[durrtygoodz]

Demon Hunters bring an even more mandatory buff and do much better damage. If that's the design it's sure inconsistent.

And if we're going along with that argument about Sub you can always play a different class too. Doesn't mean it sucks less if you want to play Sub.

Yeah DH are crazy good. But again, something always has to be the best.

If you want to play sub, you can. It's worse than the other options, but it's not unplayable. If they give sub a 10% buff, sub becomes the best spec and outlaw becomes "dead" as you put it.

Your idea of harmonious balance is achievable. Think back to HFC when SV did 50% less dps than the next worse spec. Now THAT'S unplayable. What we have now is far better since there is no truly unplayable spec.

[Nitros14]

Yeah DH are crazy good. But again, something always has to be the best.

If you want to play sub, you can. It's worse than the other options, but it's not unplayable. If they give sub a 10% buff, sub becomes the best spec and outlaw becomes "dead" as you put it.

Your idea of harmonious balance is achievable. Think back to HFC when SV did 50% less dps than the next worse spec. Now THAT'S unplayable. What we have now is far better since there is no truly unplayable spec.

Sure, someone has to be best. I just dislike when some specs excel at basically every single encounter in a raid tier and others never get to feel good. Raid tiers should give each spec a chance to shine at some point, ideally.

I attribute part of this to poor raid and dungeon design though.

[durrtygoodz]

Sure, someone has to be best. I just dislike when some specs excel at basically every single encounter in a raid tier and others never get to feel good.

That's kind of bullshit though init since Shadow and Ele are performing great right now and these specs hardly ever get a look in in raids, let alone the top of the damage meter.

[Nitros14]

That's kind of bullshit though init since Shadow and Ele are performing great right now and these specs hardly ever get a look in in raids, let alone the top of the damage meter.

I mean if you subscribe to the idea that good design is taking turns being overpowered for content patches at a time sure great for them.

Meanwhile warlock is amazing for like the 8th tier in a row.

[Emerald Archer]

I see hunters playing BM for mythic Jaina. So BM is definitely not a dead spec. In fact, Gingi was BM for their world first kill.

It's really fun when people talk about specs they have no idea about.

Gingi was BM for escorting duty, a role people have quickly realised is not actually needed. Dmg wise, BM is bad and is only going to get worse. The more comfortable people get with fights (whether on long prog bosses like jaina or on farm, though farm is pretty meaningless) and the more gear people get, the worse BM will get. BM still scales VERY badly.

It's not like how things are now, is how things will stay. BM is actively getting worse comparatively, each week of gear people get.

Those who still play BM, do so because either they can't movement manage, their MM gear is very bad and their BM gear is good, they don't care about playing what's best or good or decent or they're delusional and think BMs mobility makes them do more dmg than other specs.

In saying that, the worse you are, or your guild is, the better BM will be/look. So for lower level guilds, it's a 100% viable option, because of how easy BM is in raid, and how tanky it is, making it really good for lower guilds where your healers tend to be pretty bad.

[Poe]

It's really fun when people talk about specs they have no idea about.

Gingi was BM for escorting duty, a role people have quickly realised is not actually needed. Dmg wise, BM is bad and is only going to get worse. The more comfortable people get with fights (whether on long prog bosses like jaina or on farm, though farm is pretty meaningless) and the more gear people get, the worse BM will get. BM still scales VERY badly.

It's not like how things are now, is how things will stay. BM is actively getting worse comparatively, each week of gear people get.

Those who still play BM, do so because either they can't movement manage, their MM gear is very bad and their BM gear is good, they don't care about playing what's best or good or decent or they're delusional and think BMs mobility makes them do more dmg than other specs.

In saying that, the worse you are, or your guild is, the better BM will be/look. So for lower level guilds, it's a 100% viable option, because of how easy BM is in raid, and how tanky it is, making it really good for lower guilds where your healers tend to be pretty bad.

BM doesn't need to be top dps, it doesn't even need to be mid pack because it has 100% mobility. BM damage is perfectly fine where it is (in fact, I think it should be lower) and Blizzard clearly agrees with that idea. The only people who seem to disagree are BM hunters whose opinions will obviously be biased.

[Emerald Archer]

BM doesn't need to be top dps, it doesn't even need to be mid pack because it has 100% mobility. BM damage is perfectly fine where it is (in fact, I think it should be lower) and Blizzard clearly agrees with that idea. The only people who seem to disagree are BM hunters whose opinions will obviously be biased.

That makes very little sense. What's the point of mobility? Well the point would be partially that it makes mechanics easier to deal with and you also lose less damage to movement.

Okay, but then when despite movement on bosses, BM is extremely low on dmg compared to more movement limited specs, that bonus of mobility suddenly becomes meaningless. What's the point of 100% mobility when you're doing less dmg than everyone even in the highest movement fights?

So you're only left with mechanics being easier to deal with, you think that because it requires less of your concentration to do mechanics and your rotation, BM should be very low on dps? Okay so why isn't that the rule across the board? Harder specs being higher dmg and easier specs being lower? Why does this exclusively apply to BM?

There's literally no logic to your statement. Mobility is not a good reason for people still choosing to play BM over MM, the survivability is, that's a good argument, but the mobility thing is a bit of a meme, as there's no actual logic behind it aside from "muh mobility"

I agree that BM should be lower than specs that have limited mobility, but not as significantly behind as they currently are. They should be competitive on high movement fights, and behind on low movement fights.

You also seem to underestimate how far behind BM is going to get over the next few weeks, do you not realise the scaling difference between BM and other specs?

[Druitz]

All classes can be viable in raid enviorment and also m+ enviorment, all comes down to how good you are playing them. I've played together with specs considered "dead spec by community", and they perform very good, because the player is good. That is my experience.

Yes there are specs that perform better than others, but the "others" are not that bad, that you can't do mythic raiding or 15+ m+ keys.

Well... Classes are soooo easy in last few expansions that balance is everything now. Ofc it's different in pvp but in pve classes are too easy.

[Xath]

All classes can be viable in raid enviorment and also m+ enviorment, all comes down to how good you are playing them. I've played together with specs considered "dead spec by community", and they perform very good, because the player is good. That is my experience.

Yes there are specs that perform better than others, but the "others" are not that bad, that you can't do mythic raiding or 15+ m+ keys.

There is over a 10% difference between highest and lowest performing classes not even specs between classes. That is not acceptable in the slightest.

[Alphatorg]

Don't you suppose that warrior and mage are being held back numbers-wise because they bring a mandatory buff?

Maybe sub is dead but it doesn't matter when the class has 3 dps specs. You only need one to be good.

We take a BM hunter because there are mechanics on Jaina that are best handled by a BM hunter, most notably going out with the tank with avalanche in p2. Damage isn't everything in progress.

That line of argument is a very slippery slope. Aren't Warlocks with health stones and gates just as mandatory as mages for example? Or Boomkins with Innervate? And while the gain of mage buff is capped at one the utlity from Warlocks and Boomies actually stacks to some degree.

I mean if I look at mage specs I see lots of trade offs.
Arcane: You get very good single target damage, but you have to give up cleave and to a certain degree AoE damage.
Fire: You get very good execute damage, but you have to give up over all single target damage.
Frost: You're decent at a lot of things, but great at nothing, aside from perhaps stacked 2 target cleave.



Boomkins/SP: I'm blasting, bitch.

[Teaon]

Yeah DH are crazy good. But again, something always has to be the best.

If you want to play sub, you can. It's worse than the other options, but it's not unplayable. If they give sub a 10% buff, sub becomes the best spec and outlaw becomes "dead" as you put it.

Your idea of harmonious balance is achievable. Think back to HFC when SV did 50% less dps than the next worse spec. Now THAT'S unplayable. What we have now is far better since there is no truly unplayable spec.

as a warrior, and surely other specs like DK or paladins feel the same, that DH and rogues dominate us in every single aspect that it is bullshit, if you are a melee that is not DH or rogue, u are just flatout unwanted and have hardtime, esp in M+'s, and in the raids u are brought up for some bosses, and when they want to bench someone, the first roll out those weak ass specs, which is really unfun to be burden because u are playing the class u love.

[PaladinBash]

Been that way for Ret the entire expansion. It's just that Ret isn't alone this time at being awfully designed.