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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by bungeebungee View Post
    Who chose? Do you mean the theocrat who represented a slave holding minority and was in the pay of the CIA didn't choose to stay? My sources could well be biased, but as far as I can tell the descendants of Tibet's serfs aren't keen to go back to those days and they would have been 90% or so of the population.

    Do you mean that the native Hawaiians, after being decimated by foreign diseases and outnumbered by the descendants of foreign workers brought in by the same wealthy people who overthrew the kingdom, somehow choose to stay despite the fact that there is a current, active attempt to regain native rights? The US government doesn't seem to agree with you there:


    Source: https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/...107-Pg1510.pdf

    Pay particular attention to the bolded portion there. There was a plebiscite vote in 1959, however, it did not comply with the relevant portion of the UN Charter because it only listed statehood or remaining a territory as options. The required option of opting out and becoming sovereign was not included in that plebiscite.


    Source: http://www.hawaii-nation.org/art73.html
    The UN seems to have confirmed that the plebiscite did not comply with those requirements in 1999. (See http://mauimama.com/to-move-forward-...know-our-past/ and others).

    Your position appears to be a bit thin on facts and historically inaccurate.

    if thats how you want to take it sure. All that matters still is they choose to stay, all of the U.S states/Territories do. Unlike Tibet/Hong kong
    WORLD POPULATION
    U.S pop 318.2 million,Mexico pop 122.3 million ,Russia 143.5 million S.K 50.22 million China 1.357 billion ,United Kingdom 64.1 million, Europe "as a whole" 742.5 million, Canada 35.16 million, South America 387.5 million,Africa 1.111 billion , Middle east 205 Million , Asia "not counting china" 3.009 B ,Greenland 56k,, Iceland 323k, S/N pole 1k-5k/2k

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiase View Post
    You know exactly what my point is =)
    That I'm right?

  3. #63
    Give me WC3:R, Blizz! The Stormbringer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khelek View Post
    China entered the post WWII period fairly well (considering WWII) before the communist attacked the Chinese republic which had been weakened from fighting the Japanese. This forced the legitimate Chinese government (the one that was part of the many international treaties and alliance and also why China has such a powerful seat in the UN) to flee to Taiwan. The resulting communist takeover killed 40 million people. That is quite the set back. A starving population also easier to control since the power of money that a middle class may wield is non-existent.

    Japan was nuked, fire bombed, and occupied and yet made a rapid recovery. Korea had the Korean war. Taiwan was declared a rogue province by China and has been threaten ever since. Hong Kong was, luckily, still under British rule, but was allowed significant self government. All these places have taken the lessons from Western culture applied them to their own and have been very successful.

    Imagine if all of China was not run by the communist party, but had a similar system to Hong Kong. In this case, China would be one of the greatest forces for good in the world. Free from communism and left to grown under a free market system their economy today would rival the US. North Korea would crumble without communist support. It would have completely reshaped the cold war.

    The world would be miles ahead and miles better had the communist party never existed.
    ...why you gotta make me sad, Khelek? Imagining a world like that is truly depressing, since I know we'll never have it. Still, if that world exists in an alternate universe or different timeline, I wish it the best.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nalera View Post
    Depressing? You should go to some of their cities, they make America's aging infrastructure look like a third world country.
    Yes, those anti-suicide nets around their factories are truly top-notch first world improvements that America can't possibly dream of having!

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by derpkitteh View Post
    this shit will continue as long as the world just lets china do whatever it wants.

    they want to close off from us if we don't do everything to their desires? good, fuck them, we don't nee china.

    should sanction china till it's nothing but a fucking ruin.
    Looks like someone needs a nap.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Airlick View Post
    I'm not aware of Aborigines commiting frequent acts of terrorism against colonists, neither, which is exactly what Uyghurs were doing, and that was before China started cracking down on them. Huis have exactly ZERO problems living and practicing islam in China, because they also cause exactly ZERO problems for the Chinese - well, they are Chinese, though.

    Ask emus what happened when they went terrorist on Australians' crops.



    Except the point was exactly for China to STAY a factory for the developed world forever. Blame the West for letting CPC play a trick on them, it would still be absolute shit if things went according to their plans.
    It's still a factory but also a much better and powerful nation. Whether it was intentional or not, it wasn't "China" that lifted itself up it's just the extreme stupidity of western countries and their allies.

  6. #66
    Banned Strawberry's Avatar
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    HOW is Tibet NOT China?
    Because it was autonomous 300 years ago?

    How about we give all of the US soil back to the natives?
    Oh no, because being a hypocrite is easier.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Khelek View Post
    China entered the post WWII period fairly well (considering WWII) before the communist attacked the Chinese republic which had been weakened from fighting the Japanese. This forced the legitimate Chinese government (the one that was part of the many international treaties and alliance and also why China has such a powerful seat in the UN) to flee to Taiwan. The resulting communist takeover killed 40 million people. That is quite the set back. A starving population also easier to control since the power of money that a middle class may wield is non-existent.

    Japan was nuked, fire bombed, and occupied and yet made a rapid recovery. Korea had the Korean war. Taiwan was declared a rogue province by China and has been threaten ever since. Hong Kong was, luckily, still under British rule, but was allowed significant self government. All these places have taken the lessons from Western culture applied them to their own and have been very successful.

    Imagine if all of China was not run by the communist party, but had a similar system to Hong Kong. In this case, China would be one of the greatest forces for good in the world. Free from communism and left to grown under a free market system their economy today would rival the US. North Korea would crumble without communist support. It would have completely reshaped the cold war.

    The world would be miles ahead and miles better had the communist party never existed.
    The way China works, it's better off being ran by the communist party than a capitalist party. Capitalism is modern slavery.

    Also, you might want to read more into Chinese history except the last 70 years.
    Why do you think China became so closed? Why is religion pretty much non existstent in China?
    The opium wars is a good starting point to understand why China doesn't trust the west.

  7. #67
    China has a lot of racism. When civil war breaks out in the US, they are never ever going to side with the left. And neither will the Russians. Its going to be the alt right + China + Russia vs the left wing in the US. That's about 1.6 billion on the right vs 200 million on the left. Its going to be a rout, honestly. The left will be absolutely destroyed.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by niztheundead87 View Post
    what an irony when this comes from the usa where they stick their noses in south america , the balcans , midddle east , and most other palce in the world.
    TIL Toronto is in the United States.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
    HOW is Tibet NOT China?
    Because it was autonomous 300 years ago?

    How about we give all of the US soil back to the natives?
    Oh no, because being a hypocrite is easier.
    And how does that give them the right to opress Tibet?
    The way China works, it's better off being ran by the communist party than a capitalist party. Capitalism is modern slavery.

    Also, you might want to read more into Chinese history except the last 70 years.
    Why do you think China became so closed? Why is religion pretty much non existstent in China?
    The opium wars is a good starting point to understand why China doesn't trust the west.
    China is capitalist in anything but name.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    China has a lot of racism. When civil war breaks out in the US, they are never ever going to side with the left. And neither will the Russians. Its going to be the alt right + China + Russia vs the left wing in the US. That's about 1.6 billion on the right vs 200 million on the left. Its going to be a rout, honestly. The left will be absolutely destroyed.
    The hell you even on about?
    Conservatism and its off-shoots are the most rotten idealogies to ever exist in human history.

    Anarcho-communism =/ Stalinism.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
    HOW is Tibet NOT China?
    Because it was autonomous 300 years ago?

    How about we give all of the US soil back to the natives?
    Oh no, because being a hypocrite is easier.
    We did give land back to the native tribes who are still there and we also issued an apology. Call me when China does the same.

  11. #71
    I am Murloc! bungeebungee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raptor With a Saber
    All that matters still is they choose to stay, all of the U.S states/Territories do. Unlike Tibet/Hong kong
    That's not really how facts work. You've asserted that before, I've pointed out that the UN and the US government itself do not agree with you. I've linked you to sources seeking Hawaiian sovereignty. You? You haven't produced one fact, you just keep repeating your unsupported opinions on Hawaii as well as Tibet and Hong Kong.

    OK, hells yeah! Free Quebec! Free the Conch Republic! Oh, and, erm ... I guess you'll want to restore the Confederacy too, right? Because if a state or territory wanted to leave, of course it would be allowed, and if someone can get their discontent into the news all talk of media bias goes right out the window and it proves that they speak for a majority.
    "No one -- however smart, however well-educated, however experienced -- is the suppository of all wisdom"

    Quote Originally Posted by Katie N
    Wtf? No weapons? xD What is this? Restricted training environment?
    Commenting on "anything goes" for martial arts and self defense

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by bungeebungee View Post
    Red China, seriously? What the hell is up with the recycled Cold War language? Did you guys, probably not having been born yet, fail to get the memo that the Cold War is over? So is the 20th Century by the way.

    I could secretly be Xi Jinping drunk posting for giggles, but the point I've raised would still be valid. How about you actually engage your brain and defend a position. To paraphrase Hubcap -- do you care that the US is occupying another country?
    What the US did to Hawaii was bad. They also in general don't want to be separated from the US anymore. What China did to Tibet was also very bad and much more recent, and they want freedom.

    And Red China is still a valid term. Red referring to a Communist state is accurate, as China is still, if only officially and not in actuality, a Communist state.

  13. #73
    I am Murloc! bungeebungee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IIBloodXLustII
    What China did to Tibet was also very bad and much more recent, and they want freedom.
    Much more recent is inaccurate, Hawaii became a state in 1959 and that's the same year China freed the serfs in Tibet. Both things have longer tails, but the actual events are the same year.

    "Red" as a designation for Communist, is very much a Cold War remnant. I suppose that to a younger person (no slight intended, just a reference to time frames) the baggage associated with that gets lost since we've taken to talking about the US as Red and Blue states.

    Tibetan Buddhism and Free Tibet remind me of the story about sausages ... that one is better not knowing what goes into them. I see people saying that "they" (presumably the people of Tibet) want to be "free". Well, prior to 1959 most Tibetans literally weren't free and that was something that Western observers documented. Tibet was a theocracy, where serfs were given no rights and punished with outright torture -- again, something that Western observers documented. I wasn't there, I don't know how the figure was derived or how accurate it is, but I have seen reference to the Dalai Lama fleeing with 60 tons of gold and jewels. He, and the wealthy elite who fled with him, lived a life that had little to do (except for benefiting from serfdom) with life as experienced by most Tibetans. Today, he and Free Tibet are a polished act -- polished by the CIA in the same era as the Bay of Pigs -- who keep themselves in the spotlight and keep the money rolling in. In China, there are still a few as old as the Dalai Lama (given that serfs died very young, there aren't many), and while I'm sure what they say in Chinese media will be dismissed here as propaganda they, their children, and their grandchildren see their situation today as much better than it was under the theocracy. When the woman in the original article speaks about Free Tibet, recall that she probably would not have been able to be who she is today if Tibet had remained as it was.

    You find it plausible that Hawaii would reject sovereignty. I find it plausible that with serfdom being so recent in Tibet that there are still living survivors, perhaps the people descended from that 90% or so wouldn't want those days to return.
    "No one -- however smart, however well-educated, however experienced -- is the suppository of all wisdom"

    Quote Originally Posted by Katie N
    Wtf? No weapons? xD What is this? Restricted training environment?
    Commenting on "anything goes" for martial arts and self defense

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Polyxo View Post
    I can't imagine ever caring who my student union president is. Like, someone could literally bring actual Hitler back from the dead and make him student union president at my university. I still wouldn't care.
    Ah, come on now; not even an ironic selfie at some point?

    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    Damnit hubcap, you are such a retard.
    Quote Originally Posted by mojusk View Post
    Oh, and stop being a "didn't do that in vanilla"-police. If we're doing something now that we didnt do back then, it's not because we had some sorta unwritten moral code back then, it's because we hadn't thought of it yet.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by bungeebungee View Post
    That's not really how facts work. You've asserted that before, I've pointed out that the UN and the US government itself do not agree with you. I've linked you to sources seeking Hawaiian sovereignty. You? You haven't produced one fact, you just keep repeating your unsupported opinions on Hawaii as well as Tibet and Hong Kong.

    OK, hells yeah! Free Quebec! Free the Conch Republic! Oh, and, erm ... I guess you'll want to restore the Confederacy too, right? Because if a state or territory wanted to leave, of course it would be allowed, and if someone can get their discontent into the news all talk of media bias goes right out the window and it proves that they speak for a majority.
    Tibet/Hk dont want to be part of china and have been crushed by them for even wanting a voice. U.S doesnt do that so again its not at all the same one keeps them with threats of death one keeps them treating them well. So again circling around to my original post not the same at all.
    WORLD POPULATION
    U.S pop 318.2 million,Mexico pop 122.3 million ,Russia 143.5 million S.K 50.22 million China 1.357 billion ,United Kingdom 64.1 million, Europe "as a whole" 742.5 million, Canada 35.16 million, South America 387.5 million,Africa 1.111 billion , Middle east 205 Million , Asia "not counting china" 3.009 B ,Greenland 56k,, Iceland 323k, S/N pole 1k-5k/2k

  16. #76
    I am Murloc! bungeebungee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raptor With a Saber
    Tibet/Hk dont want to be part of china
    Nice talking point ya got there, now prove it. Stop running in circles spouting what you think is true and back your points up with facts. Good gods, what the hell do they teach in schools nowadays?

    If I say Quebec as a province (this is, after all, a story from Canada) wants to be free, and I point to the acts of some people in Quebec who favor separatism, I would rightfully be called out by our Canadian posters, although perhaps some might favor it. There is a clear example of what some might want not really representing what the majority want.

    Similarly, the Conch Republic and the movement for Hawaiian sovereignty both exist, but you gloss over that. The US has, as a matter of public law, acknowledged that it basically stole Hawaii, and the Conch Republic actually did declare independence:
    When the City Council's complaints went unanswered by the U.S. federal government and attempts to get an injunction against the roadblock failed in court, as a form of protest Mayor Dennis Wardlow and the Council declared Key West's independence on April 23, 1982. In the eyes of the Council, since the U.S. federal government had set up the equivalent of a border station as if they were a foreign nation, they might as well become one. As many of the local citizens were referred to as Conchs, the nation took the name of the Conch Republic.
    Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conch_Republic

    We don't kill people over wanting to secede? Let me think about this, you wrote that with a straight face, didn't you?

    No, I suppose we don't have to, because we killed so damned many the last time that was tried.

    Law and precedent make it quite clear that we will use military force -- lethally if we wish -- to suppress any serious act of secession. It has been observed that that is a definite obstacle to any Hawaiian sovereignty movement given the significant military presence there.

    In a nice bit of irony, the theocracy of Tibet were slaveholders. Freeing slaves was a core issue in the American Civil War. China asserts historical claims to Tibet, little different from the North's claim to the South, and has freed a whole bunch of slaves. Somehow that gets painted as evil if China does it.
    Last edited by bungeebungee; 2019-02-18 at 12:17 AM. Reason: :p Auto-correct got me
    "No one -- however smart, however well-educated, however experienced -- is the suppository of all wisdom"

    Quote Originally Posted by Katie N
    Wtf? No weapons? xD What is this? Restricted training environment?
    Commenting on "anything goes" for martial arts and self defense

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Hubcap View Post
    Do you care that China is occupying another country?
    I have issues with how China runs their own country, let alone their oppression of others.
    Quote Originally Posted by zenkai View Post
    100:1 odds that he wont
    Quote Originally Posted by freefolk View Post
    Okay. I'll stop sharing my views.

  18. #78
    Well only one thing to do for this insult, China must annex all of Canada and impose Chinese rule over it.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by bungeebungee View Post
    Nice talking point ya got there, now prove it. Stop running in circles spouting what you think is true and back your points up with facts. Good gods, what the hell do they teach in schools nowadays?

    If I say Quebec as a province (this is, after all, a story from Canada) wants to be free, and I point to the acts of some people in Quebec who favor separatism, I would rightfully be called out by our Canadian posters, although perhaps some might favor it. There is a clear example of what some might want not really representing what the majority want.

    Similarly, the Conch Republic and the movement for Hawaiian sovereignty both exist, but you gloss over that. The US has, as a matter of public law, acknowledged that it basically stole Hawaii, and the Conch Republic actually did declare independence:

    Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conch_Republic

    We don't kill people over wanting to secede? Let me think about this, you wrote that with a straight face, didn't you?

    No, I suppose we don't have to, because we killed so damned many the last time that was tried.

    Law and precedent make it quite clear that we will use military force -- lethally if we wish -- to suppress any serious act of secession. It has been observed that that is a definite obstacle to any Hawaiian sovereignty movement given the significant military presence there.

    In a nice bit of irony, the theocracy of Tibet were slaveholders. Freeing slaves was a core issue in the American Civil War. China asserts historical claims to Tibet, little different from the North's claim to the South, and has freed a whole bunch of slaves. Somehow that gets painted as evil if China does it.

    So you want people as slaves and no groups to people to have choices and everything to rules with an iron fist? if no then as i said they arent the same. Just stop dude, everytime you reply with some bullshit thing to try and justify a government keeping people in check by force in modern times will come back with the same reply from me. The choice of the people and them able to live without fear of the ruling gov raining hellfire down on them for just wanting a voice is all that matters.

    You can keep trying to derail it all you want but the matter as i originally said and will keep saying is its not the same because one rules through fear one through treating well.
    WORLD POPULATION
    U.S pop 318.2 million,Mexico pop 122.3 million ,Russia 143.5 million S.K 50.22 million China 1.357 billion ,United Kingdom 64.1 million, Europe "as a whole" 742.5 million, Canada 35.16 million, South America 387.5 million,Africa 1.111 billion , Middle east 205 Million , Asia "not counting china" 3.009 B ,Greenland 56k,, Iceland 323k, S/N pole 1k-5k/2k

  20. #80
    Chinese snowflakes?

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