1. #3641
    The Undying Slowpoke is a Gamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    Packers first and foremost need to get players that aren't soft. 49ers took their manhood and didn't even have to earn it. I don't see how a diva playmaker fixes that problem for them.
    While true their secondary looked downright Capers-era soft, I REALLY hope the Packers don't talk themselves into "we got gashed on defense so we should invest all offseason into remaking the defense again."

    This offense has been anemic all season, Adams at one point was facing 4-man coverage, and if you shut down the run game this offense compeletely stalls out. They need to completely remake their skill position guys first and just hope that an above average defense and above average offense is good enough to lock down homefield next season (since the NFC West should be rising, Brees will be older, and the East still sucks).
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  2. #3642
    So Bills twitter is melting down tonight because Mahomes is in the Super Bowl. So I thought I'd present the argument here:

    If the Bills hadn't traded the 10th pick in 2017 to KC, and picked Mahomes (or for that matter, Watson) at that pick, would they have been flops?

    Cause the excuse around Buffalo is twofold:
    1) "Oh, well, Mahomes needed the offensive genius mind of Andy Reid to become a generational talent."
    2) "Well, McDermott had just been hired 3 months before and knew he was going to replace the GM and the whole scouting department, so he didn't want to pick the franchise QB without 'his guy' in place." And the Bills did indeed fire their GM and entire scouting department the next week so McDermott could have the GM he wanted, his friend from Carolina, Brandon Beane.

    My counterarguments break down as follows:
    1) DeShaun Watson is still great, despite Bill O'Brien. He'd be spoken of in the same breath as Mahomes if there was even a mildly competent offensive mind in the building. Mahomes, if he followed the same trajectory he did with the Chiefs, with the Bills, would have sat '17 with Tyrod Taylor playing, and get some random playing time that Nathan Peterman got instead. Dennison would have still been fired as our OC, we would have gotten our "offensive guru" in Daboll. Then, in '18 (when Josh Allen was drafted and started almost immediately), we could have instead upgraded our o-line, still pick up Tremaine Edmunds, find a CB instead of Tre White (who we took with the Mahomes pick and was a 1st team All-Pro this year), have a dynamic back in Shady McCoy, and found some receivers instead of Kelvin Benjamin. And then this year we'd have Beasley, John Brown, a good rookie RB and TE, and we'd be off and running under Daboll.

    2) That's totally on McDermott. The scouting department had done all the work, they had their recommendations. The fired GM (Doug Whaley) has since said he wanted to take a QB there. McDermott just chose to ignore them because they weren't "his guys" and picked a CB up when we were one of the few teams who had a desperate need at QB. And if he "needed his guy," he should have had his guy in place from the beginning, instead of going through the draft process with people he knew he was going to fire literally the next week. It boggles my mind.

    I think Mahomes would have been great in '18 (last year) with Daboll as his OC, Shady McCoy in the backfield, Charles Clay at TE, Robert Foster our speedster, Isaiah McKenzie, and some potential draft picks to fill out the line/WR corps.

  3. #3643
    The Undying Slowpoke is a Gamer's Avatar
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    Mahomes without Reid and a year of gestating behind Alex Smith would not be the same Mahomes. Honestly I could see the Bills turning him into a bust.

    There's a reason good organizations stay good and bad organizations stay bad.
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  4. #3644
    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpoke is a Gamer View Post
    Mahomes without Reid and a year of gestating behind Alex Smith would not be the same Mahomes. Honestly I could see the Bills turning him into a bust.

    There's a reason good organizations stay good and bad organizations stay bad.
    You don't think our organization has been good in the past three years? Cause I think it's been great.

    Edit: I also roll my eyes hard at the idea that Alex Smith was some sort of guru that taught Mahomes how to be Mahomes.

  5. #3645
    The Undying Slowpoke is a Gamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    You don't think our organization has been good in the past three years? Cause I think it's been great.

    Edit: I also roll my eyes hard at the idea that Alex Smith was some sort of guru that taught Mahomes how to be Mahomes.
    Nah not bad. But there's still a reason good teams stay good. They don't need to draft a guy and immediately throw him to the wolves because their starter is someone like Josh McCown who'll only make it about 3-4 games before being benched.

    Alex Smith didn't teach Mahomes to be Mahomes. But he was a competent starter that allowed Mahomes a year of being trained by Reid before he even saw the field as a starter. It's the same recipe that (albeit it wasn't an entire year) helped I think make Lamar Jackson great. And hopefully is a recipe that I hope the Bengals and Dolphins repeat with Burrow and Tua.
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  6. #3646
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    So Bills twitter is melting down tonight because Mahomes is in the Super Bowl. So I thought I'd present the argument here:

    If the Bills hadn't traded the 10th pick in 2017 to KC, and picked Mahomes (or for that matter, Watson) at that pick, would they have been flops?

    Cause the excuse around Buffalo is twofold:
    1) "Oh, well, Mahomes needed the offensive genius mind of Andy Reid to become a generational talent."
    2) "Well, McDermott had just been hired 3 months before and knew he was going to replace the GM and the whole scouting department, so he didn't want to pick the franchise QB without 'his guy' in place." And the Bills did indeed fire their GM and entire scouting department the next week so McDermott could have the GM he wanted, his friend from Carolina, Brandon Beane.

    My counterarguments break down as follows:
    1) DeShaun Watson is still great, despite Bill O'Brien. He'd be spoken of in the same breath as Mahomes if there was even a mildly competent offensive mind in the building. Mahomes, if he followed the same trajectory he did with the Chiefs, with the Bills, would have sat '17 with Tyrod Taylor playing, and get some random playing time that Nathan Peterman got instead. Dennison would have still been fired as our OC, we would have gotten our "offensive guru" in Daboll. Then, in '18 (when Josh Allen was drafted and started almost immediately), we could have instead upgraded our o-line, still pick up Tremaine Edmunds, find a CB instead of Tre White (who we took with the Mahomes pick and was a 1st team All-Pro this year), have a dynamic back in Shady McCoy, and found some receivers instead of Kelvin Benjamin. And then this year we'd have Beasley, John Brown, a good rookie RB and TE, and we'd be off and running under Daboll.

    2) That's totally on McDermott. The scouting department had done all the work, they had their recommendations. The fired GM (Doug Whaley) has since said he wanted to take a QB there. McDermott just chose to ignore them because they weren't "his guys" and picked a CB up when we were one of the few teams who had a desperate need at QB. And if he "needed his guy," he should have had his guy in place from the beginning, instead of going through the draft process with people he knew he was going to fire literally the next week. It boggles my mind.

    I think Mahomes would have been great in '18 (last year) with Daboll as his OC, Shady McCoy in the backfield, Charles Clay at TE, Robert Foster our speedster, Isaiah McKenzie, and some potential draft picks to fill out the line/WR corps.
    A bit of retroactive boohooing.

    Mahomes probably would have been ok in Buffalo, but ffs man, the Bills don't have a wr on their team from the last two years who would even see the field in KC.

    The Bills fans crying about those drafts are more annoying than my wife bringing up shit that happened years ago in an argument.
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  7. #3647
    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpoke is a Gamer View Post
    While true their secondary looked downright Capers-era soft, I REALLY hope the Packers don't talk themselves into "we got gashed on defense so we should invest all offseason into remaking the defense again."

    This offense has been anemic all season, Adams at one point was facing 4-man coverage, and if you shut down the run game this offense compeletely stalls out. They need to completely remake their skill position guys first and just hope that an above average defense and above average offense is good enough to lock down homefield next season (since the NFC West should be rising, Brees will be older, and the East still sucks).
    I mean, I don't think it was just the defense that was soft so was the offense. Need WRs and TEs that want to block, need OLs that don't let a 4 man pass rush knock them back into the QB on every 3rd and long.

  8. #3648
    The Undying Slowpoke is a Gamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    I mean, I don't think it was just the defense that was soft so was the offense. Need WRs and TEs that want to block, need OLs that don't let a 4 man pas rush knock them back into the QB on every 3rd and long.
    I'll honestly forgive the OLine considering they were playing against Nick Bosa, whose a lock for DROY and honestly should be talked about as DPOY.
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  9. #3649
    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpoke is a Gamer View Post
    Nah not bad. But there's still a reason good teams stay good. They don't need to draft a guy and immediately throw him to the wolves because their starter is someone like Josh McCown who'll only make it about 3-4 games before being benched.

    Alex Smith didn't teach Mahomes to be Mahomes. But he was a competent starter that allowed Mahomes a year of being trained by Reid before he even saw the field as a starter. It's the same recipe that (albeit it wasn't an entire year) helped I think make Lamar Jackson great. And hopefully is a recipe that I hope the Bengals and Dolphins repeat with Burrow and Tua.
    And we had a competent starter named Tyrod Taylor, who, I might point out, took us to the playoffs that year, so we could have had Mahomes learning on the bench.

    Lamar sat for like, half a year.

    Josh Allen sat for the first half of our opener, before being thrown in because Peterman was so bad, and McDermott had moved on from Taylor who was at least competent, and Daboll has managed to make what Pro Football Focus called "a parody of a QB prospect" into passable by this year.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by dwightyo39 View Post
    A bit of retroactive boohooing.

    Mahomes probably would have been ok in Buffalo, but ffs man, the Bills don't have a wr on their team from the last two years who would even see the field in KC.

    The Bills fans crying about those drafts are more annoying than my wife bringing up shit that happened years ago in an argument.
    That's weird because Sammy Watkins, who McD/Beane traded before '17 even started, caught like, 7 passes for 120 yards and a TD today. He was on our team, and didn't need to be traded, yanno. They just......wanted to.

  10. #3650
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    And we had a competent starter named Tyrod Taylor, who, I might point out, took us to the playoffs that year, so we could have had Mahomes learning on the bench.

    Lamar sat for like, half a year.

    Josh Allen sat for the first half of our opener, before being thrown in because Peterman was so bad, and McDermott had moved on from Taylor who was at least competent, and Daboll has managed to make what Pro Football Focus called "a parody of a QB prospect" into passable by this year.

    - - - Updated - - -



    That's weird because Sammy Watkins, who McD/Beane traded before '17 even started, caught like, 7 passes for 120 yards and a TD today. He was on our team, and didn't need to be traded, yanno. They just......wanted to.
    Well if we are going to play the what if game let's go all in and cry about not drafting Russell Wilson. How dare they draft marcell dareus when they could have picked up JJ Watt. Why would they trade up for watkins when they could have had khalil mack?

    Going way back....

    Why did the Bills spend more time doing coke and fucking hookers than focusing on superbowl 25? Certainly they were a better team than New York.
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  11. #3651
    I agree, the Sammy Watkins trade up, the Dareus pick, they were all bad, and most people thought they were pretty bad at the time.

    And Russell Wilson was passed over by the whole league. But yes, I would have drafted him instead of Stephen Gilmore, Cordy Glenn (both starters for us, both Pro Bowlers), and T.J. Graham, all of whom we selected before Russell. But I guess we were fine with Ryan Fitzpatrick cause we bought into the Fitzmagic, which is hilariously awful after a season he threw for 3400 yards, 24/16 TDs/INTs, and was 7 years into his career already. The Gilmore pick was seen as good (and has proven to be good), and Glenn turned out good as well, but they weren't what we needed.

    But the point, once we drafted Watkins - he could have been a weapon for any young QB we drafted, including Allen, but he wasn't one of McD/Beane's "guys" so they traded him.

  12. #3652
    Are you playing devil's advocate or are you legitimately upset with McDermott and Beane?

    Yes I'd rather have Mahomes on this Bills team than Allen, but it cannot be changed. In fact, I'm optimistic about the Bills future.
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  13. #3653
    Immortal Vetali's Avatar
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    Might of been the most boring round of championship football I've watched a long time.

  14. #3654
    Quote Originally Posted by dwightyo39 View Post
    Are you playing devil's advocate or are you legitimately upset with McDermott and Beane?

    Yes I'd rather have Mahomes on this Bills team than Allen, but it cannot be changed. In fact, I'm optimistic about the Bills future.
    Upset? Nah. Just pondering lost potential. I actually think they draft really well......on defense. They hadn't hit on a skill position offensive player til this year with Singletary and maybe Dawson Knox. Dawkins is solid, but not super great for the high 2nd round pick we spent on him, on the OLine.

    I do think that they're pretty bad when it comes to getting the right guys in general, though. They have a tendency to pick guys who fit "the culture" moreso than the scheme or, yanno, who are actually talented. It's the reason they gave for trading Sammy Watkins. And for releasing Tyrod even though you were drafting a rookie who you wanted to sit for a year, even though Tyrod was a class act all around. He wasn't "their guy." And then they dress guys because of respect, or something. T.J. Yeldon was inactive for like, the whole year, while Frank Gore was getting less than 3 YPC. Duke Williams was inactive, because we "needed" Andre Holmes, a useless piece as a WR, because of his sure-handedness at...fielding punts, I guess? We dressed Lee Smith over Tommy Sweeney, because who the fuck knows - Lee is a veteran, I guess, and "respected in the room"? Oh, and don't forget Pat DiMarco, the fullback who we split out wide more often than we run an I formation with him in the backfield, because......I guess we need a fullback to run - even though we didn't? Wish we could have spread Tommy Sweeney out wide or something instead, or Duke, or Yeldon. Or anyone who wasn't a fullback.

    And let's not even dwell on their failures in terms of Kelvin Benjamin and Nathan Peterman and A.J. McCarron and Mike Tolbert, all these "their guy" type players who were utter failures. Or Zay Jones, their first offensive draft pick who was somehow a total bust despite being a Balitznakopf winner in college.

    Their personnel decisions leave a lot to be desired. Mostly on the offensive side of the ball. I never have that complaint on the defensive side of the ball.

    McDermott, last season, was also bad at clock management and on choosing to go for it on 4th down when appropriate. But he was much better on the latter this season, and slightly less awful on clock management. But in general, his philosophy (on offense) is super conservative. There are too many times we're playing for FGs when we should be going for TDs. It's the reason we lost the Browns game, and it's the reason we lost the playoff game.

  15. #3655
    Fluffy Kitten Pendulous's Avatar
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    Prediction: Niners get up to a quick lead early, and hold off the Chiefs. But the Chiefs mount an epic comeback in the fourth quarter, sending the game to overtime, and winning.

  16. #3656
    The Undying Slowpoke is a Gamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendulous View Post
    Prediction: Niners get up to a quick lead early, and hold off the Chiefs. But the Chiefs mount an epic comeback in the fourth quarter, sending the game to overtime, and winning.
    Bosa sacks Mahomes 3 times, 49ers win by a touchdown.
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  17. #3657
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    That's weird because Sammy Watkins, who McD/Beane traded before '17 even started, caught like, 7 passes for 120 yards and a TD today. He was on our team, and didn't need to be traded, yanno. They just......wanted to.
    Robert Woods was also on the Bills and they let him walk the offseason prior to '17. The past two years with the Rams he has been a 1000+ yard receiver. It is still hard to match the kind of talent that Tyreek Hill and Travis Kelce give Mahomes to work with, but possibilities existed prior to that offseason.

    The ultimate "what if" scenario with Mahomes will always circle back to the Bears taking Trubisky ahead of both Mahomes and Watson though.

  18. #3658
    IIRC, the Bears even traded extra picks to move up 1 spot to pick Trubisky. Like, the 1 pick later, and a future first.

  19. #3659
    The Undying Slowpoke is a Gamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    IIRC, the Bears even traded extra picks to move up 1 spot to pick Trubisky. Like, the 1 pick later, and a future first.
    This is gonna go down with Bortles at #4 as biggest nonsense reaches in this millinium.
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  20. #3660
    Ah, I was wrong:

    The Bears traded the Nos. 3, 67 and 111 picks, as well as a 2018 third-round pick, to the San Francisco 49ers in exchange for the second overall pick.
    The pick after, a 2nd and a 3rd that year, and a 3rd the following. To move up one spot, and then SF got the better QB anyways by trading for Jimmy G.

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