UK: 7 High ranking labour MP's quit party, Tory's facing own break up.

[Flarelaine]

Are they still committing high treason over there to try and wiggle out of Brexit?

Has Her Majesty ordered Brexit?

Unless she did, you cannot call it high treason. Words have meanings.

[Mighty Tim]

Has Her Majesty ordered Brexit?

Unless she did, you cannot call it high treason. Words have meanings.

I believe your wrong but I also believe that getting into a argument with someone on the internet about semantics is the greatest waste of time imaginable and while I am here to waste time... I would rather not do it in that way.

[falathwe]

You're not reading what I've written. I've said I don't support the breakaway group. I admire the courage of the TIG MPs but that their actions are purely symbolic as we don't have a form of proportional representation.

Until we ditch FPTP I do not want centrists to leave either the Tories or Labour.

It's you who's saying you want to expel them.

Also, "we are not going to be blackmailed by the minority". Ummm... I hadn't realised the hard left were the majority. Name the MPs? Or are they unimportant - you're referring to the membership?

The party membership expressed a clear desire for Corbyn in two elections. If that makes them "hard left" as you put it, so be it.

As for expelling people, if you can't follow a leader with a democratic mandate you need to leave the party. Fight for change within the party by all means, Corbyn did that himself, but all the backstabbing is getting way too much.

I'm not really sure how you can "admire" the TIG. They are not remotely courageous. They are being deselected in their own constituencies. It would be courageous if they stayed and fought. It would also be courageous if they stood down. Zach Goldsmith, a tory, showed more integrity than any of them.

[Flarelaine]

I believe your wrong but I also believe that getting into a argument with someone on the internet about semantics is the greatest waste of time imaginable and while I am here to waste time... I would rather not do it in that way.

If you use hyperbole in an argument, don't be surprised when you get called out on it.

[Mehrunes]

https://twitter.com/Muqadaam/status/1037802789668364288

You're backing the wrong horse here.

So please allow me to continue to "cry" that it's a conspiracy. Because it literally is.

Once again, nothing in your source backs up your claims. Or, to be more exact, the claims you're reposting here.

[Mighty Tim]

If you use hyperbole in an argument, don't be surprised when you get called out on it.

Again semantics. I'm not here to argue with you over what you think words mean.

[LeGin Tufnel]

The party membership expressed a clear desire for Corbyn in two elections. If that makes them "hard left" as you put it, so be it.

I wasn't referring to support for Corbyn. I was referring to support for violent revolution. Isn't Corbyn a pacifist? A member could support Corbyn without belonging to the hard left. We're talking at cross purposes.

[Flarelaine]

Again semantics. I'm not here to argue with you over what you think words mean.

Arguments use words. Words do not mean what you decide on the spur of the moment they mean. If you discard meanings, you are left with feelings, although that's what you been subsituting anyway.

[Mighty Tim]

Arguments use words. Words do not mean what you decide on the spur of the moment they mean. If you discard meanings, you are left with feelings, although that's what you been subsituting anyway.

In the sense that I will not argue with you over what you feel that words mean I agree.

[Mehrunes]

Keep voting until the desired outcome is silly. But once sufficient time has passed and/or conditions have changed, by all means, have a new vote or adapt your legislation. The debate is now... is 2 years and a buttload of new "X won't work outside the EU" enough to warrant a new vote? Or as some may put it, the first proper vote? I think a case could easily be made. The 2016 vote kinda took everyone by surprise in that it came about and how badly it was executed from the remain side. There was more misinformation floating around than actual, helpful information about how intertwined the UK and EU actually are and how many things depend on EU membership by now.

The beautiful thing is that it's already too late for a new referendum. The Brexit deadline passes at the end of March. And it would take months to issue a new referendum. So unless a miracle happens and EU grants UK an extension on the negotiations (which is unlikely, because despite that being a part of Article 50, neither side didn't even mention it all that much throughout the process), UK will be out before they can get a new vote.

They demanded a new vote less then a minute from losing...

They voted leave if democracy is to mean anything they leave...

There's absolutely nothing about democracy that prohibits a second vote on the same issue. Especially since the circumstances about Brexit changed significantly, which makes it hard to say it's the same issue anymore. Especially^2 given the fact that the 2016 referendum isn't binding for the UK government in the first place.

We shouldn't have to vote until the side that feels slighted wins. I hate to point out your hypocrisy but if they voted remain you would not be offering this olive branch.

Maybe because the remain campaign wasn't deliberately misleading (or even outright lying on some occasions). You know, unlike the leave campaign, that was exposed to be a bunch of crap in 2346023852 different ways since the referendum. If people voted leave under false pretenses because people like Farage sold them abject bullshit, their vote isn't exactly valid, is it now? You trying to force the first vote in light of misleading campaign causing people to vote under false pretenses is much more undemocratic than issuing a new referendum.

On top of that, the British government, once it got down to Brexit negotiations, assured the UK population that their awesomesauce negotiators will get UK a fantastic deal. Now the UK is facing the prospect of Brexit with no deal, with all the chaos that will ensue from that. So not only do we have a case of the population being mislead, we also have a significant change in circumstances.

[mojojojo202]

You're not reading what I've written. I've said I don't support the breakaway group. I admire the courage of the TIG MPs but that their actions are purely symbolic as we don't have a form of proportional representation.

Until we ditch FPTP I do not want centrists to leave either the Tories or Labour.

It's you who's saying you want to expel them.

Also, "we are not going to be blackmailed by the minority". Ummm... I hadn't realised the hard left were the majority. Name the MPs? Or are they unimportant - you're referring to the membership?

You're viewpoint is naive. FPTP is the only thing holding the 2 major parties together. Neither is going to sacrifice their position of power in case the other remains intact and stays in power for good. If you want rid of FPTP tearing Labour and Conservative parties apart simultaneiusly is almost definitely the best way to go about it

[Mehrunes]

Again semantics. I'm not here to argue with you over what you think words mean.

It's not what @Flarelaine merely thinks words mean. It's what they mean, period. The UK system rests on the principle of parliamentary sovereignty. The UK government is not bound by anything. Including referendums. Referendums in UK political system are only advisory. If the government wanted to, they could cancel Brexit today and have each member publicly wipe their ass with a copy of the referendum vote. And it wouldn't be any more of a treason than them drinking water. You're talking out of your ass, you got called out on talking out of your ass and you're trying to deflect from that with some nonsense about semantics.

[LeGin Tufnel]

You're viewpoint is naive. FPTP is the only thing holding the 2 major parties together. Neither is going to sacrifice their position of power in case the other remains intact and stays in power for good. If you want rid of FPTP tearing Labour and Conservative parties apart simultaneiusly is almost definitely the best way to go about it

At a time of national crisis, no, I don't think the best thing to do is to exacerbate division. I'm not looking at the situation and saying, ah this is a great opportunity to get PR. I'm looking at the situation and thinking, there will be rioting on the streets in just over a month's time. One crisis at a time, eh?

[Flarelaine]

There's absolutely nothing about democracy that prohibits a second vote on the same issue.

Ain't that the truth. After all, there are periodic elections in democracies, even though the people had chosen before. Several times, in fact.

[mojojojo202]

Yes, I agree completely.

And in my opinion the solution isn't to embrace the hard left it's to e.g., support and uphold supranational bodies like the EU that have the will and the power to combat the worst excesses of the free market. Anti Tax Avoidance Directive etc. Who will benefit from the UK not having to adhere to that? Oh wait, it won't be the middle classes will it.

Got to go now to get some actual work done, earn some money / pay my taxes / redistribution of wealth and all that.

The leftist argumwnt against that would be that just because the EU is supranational it doesn't prevent it colluding with big business and it definitely doesn't stop big business playing one governing body off against another to gain a competitive advantage as they are always going to do under capitalist economic models.

The objection is more systemic, that the Hierachical organisations and fundamental models of world social and economic governance are simply not capable of delivering a just economy.

[Mighty Tim]

It's not what @Flarelaine merely thinks words mean. It's what they mean, period. The UK system rests on the principle of parliamentary sovereignty. The UK government is not bound by anything. Including referendums. Referendums in UK political system are only advisory. If the government wanted to, they could cancel Brexit today and have each member publicly wipe their ass with a copy of the referendum vote. And it wouldn't be any more of a treason than them drinking water. You're talking out of your ass, you got called out on talking out of your ass and you're trying to deflect from that with some nonsense about semantics.

I would be talking it of my ass if that was what I said luckily it wasn't.

On the second vote. I can't find myself able to agree on it base on my own principles. I can agree both sides lied through their teeth even if for the most part it was by admission. I don't wholly believe that either side was that blind to what the issue entailed though.

[Pann]

And another has gone: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47330079

[JohnBrown1917]

And another has gone: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47330079

How nice of them to purge themselves.

[LeGin Tufnel]

How nice of them to purge themselves.

Spoken like a true Stalinist. Off to the gulags with them!

[JohnBrown1917]

Spoken like a true Stalinist. Off to the gulags with them!

Yeah, how dare I not like liberals is a soc dem/dem soc party!