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  1. #581
    Quote Originally Posted by Otaka View Post
    What makes you think im a PvPer? im not. I play on a PvE server in which World PvP hardly ever occurs to begin with... but what surprisingly made world pvp so functional was the spontanious pvp-adventures that some people did and many of us joined in to protect our homelands from those invaders.

    Why would anyone do such a pvp if theres no rewards from it? well who knows... faction pride is obviously the reason why players respond to such attacks. Maybe thats why some high end pvpers on our pve servers decided to do it? kill some nubs and stir some chaos.
    Like i explained already it ended up fading away... people stopped responding to it since it was pointless due to flying mounts making it not fun.
    All the final engagements always ended up in staring contests midair.
    Then you're even more rare type of players, than I am. I'm PVEer, who hates PVP and even I feel alienated in this game. But PVPers on PVE servers? That's something completely new. I won't even mention possible reasons for this to avoid insulting you. So, you kill griefers, who come to kill your Flight Masters? There is simple solution for this problem - completely remove ability to kill other faction's NPCs (via phasing into PVE zone for example, like in some Cata's content), remove PVP flag and therefore remove PVP from PVE servers. They you would have a choice to stay PVE or switch WarMode on. Would no-flying in WarMode be fair for you?
    Last edited by WowIsDead64; 2019-03-12 at 04:07 AM.
    We play RPG - not adventure and/or platformer, like Tomb Rider or Assassin's Creed.
    Blizzard should either remove features, that don't fit into RPG genre, or enable flying to avoid them for players, who don't like them.
    Flying - is like ability to turn PVP-flag off. It allows devs to design content purely for "PVPers" without risk of harming "PVEers".
    My perfect Wow.

  2. #582
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Then argue for this. Not Flight.

    Flight doesn't give you this. Flight gives you the same thing with flight. Which is not better.
    Gotta start somewhere. Just telling blizzard "git gud" isnt very useful.

    And yes, flying can be a vehicle to get Blizzard to innovate. Even if you just stupidly slap flying into the content without any of the suggested changes to how it works, it would still require thinking outside the formulaic rut they've been in since WoD.
    In case it wasn't clear, I'm a fan of what Blizzard COULD be, not the ruins of what it is now.

  3. #583
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Gotta start somewhere. Just telling blizzard "git gud" isnt very useful.

    And yes, flying can be a vehicle to get Blizzard to innovate. Even if you just stupidly slap flying into the content without any of the suggested changes to how it works, it would still require thinking outside the formulaic rut they've been in since WoD.
    You're not starting anywhere.

    You're asking them to give you something which will not solve the problem you want to solve.

    If you want a problem solved - Ask them to solve that problem. Adding convenience so it takes you less time to do a boring task isn't going to make the task less boring.
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

  4. #584
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    You're not starting anywhere.

    You're asking them to give you something which will not solve the problem you want to solve.

    If you want a problem solved - Ask them to solve that problem. Adding convenience so it takes you less time to do a boring task isn't going to make the task less boring.
    You need to actually go back and read my posts on the subject instead of making assumptions. I'm not asking for a simple convenience. I never have except as an illustration of how pointless boring tasks are once their initial purpose had been served months ago.
    In case it wasn't clear, I'm a fan of what Blizzard COULD be, not the ruins of what it is now.

  5. #585
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    I read it. I just filed it under "moot point" because its more of the same correlation being confused as causation. Invasion into capital cities didn't fade because of flying. It faded because people had already done it.

    Thrown on top of that was that LFD was in full swing by then, creating capital cities full of bored players, making any prospective invasion troublesome.

    You're trying too hard to assign blame to flight because it's what you thought you were seeing. You associated two things that appeared to be related, but really weren't.



    My point was that current content DOESN'T use, or even recognize the existence' of flight. So OF COURSE flying will cause problems for it. :/

    You can't claim that flying causes problems for content when no attempts are being made to even try to include it. Especially when I can very easily point to older expansion content where flying very specifically did NOT break anything.

    Wrong again... why do you keep thinking its about "invasion into cities"? its literally not that... sure people stopped doing it after they had already done it but THIS WASNT AN INVASION.
    Literally a 5 man group, or less, of people who did arena and had good gear decided to come cause ruccus in orgrimmar (we all knew them by names, welcome to your introduction to server specific community)... and ONLY in orgrimmar, why would they? obviously because orgrimmar was basically the capital of horde. So it was all in good fun... it had nothing to do with city invasions, it happened all the time and they never tried to kill the boss.
    You probably never experienced this kind of "community of world pvp" on your server so you dont know whats it like and thus try to claim it has something to do with achievements.


    Did you remember cataclysm and flying? there was content that "required" flying... al'akir and twilight bastion places... that was an attempt to include it into gameplay, and it was a poor attempt at best.
    Regardless its a moot point trying to claim flying didnt break anything and then say it was because there were no attempts to include it in the content...
    Thats literally how it breaks content... its enabled but not included.

    And since the devs dont take flying into account its rather safe to say they dont like it as a feature. If they did surely they would spend more time trying to make it interesting.

  6. #586
    Quote Originally Posted by darklogrus View Post
    Blizzard also said they were happy with BFA as it continues to bleed subs..
    I do not believe Blizzard ever expressed happiness about bleeding subs.

  7. #587
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    Then you're even more rare type of players, than I am. I'm PVEer, who hates PVP and even I feel alienated in this game. But PVPers on PVE servers? That's something completely new. I won't even mention possible reasons for this to avoid insulting you. So, you kill griefers, who come to kill your Flight Masters? There is simple solution for this problem - completely remove ability to kill other faction's NPCs (via phasing into PVE zone for example, like in some Cata's content), remove PVP flag and therefore remove PVP from PVE servers. They you would have a choice to stay PVE or switch WarMode on. Would no-flying in WarMode be fair for you?
    You dont get it... im not a pvper and saying it wont make it true.
    The only reason why people play on PvE servers is not to avoid PvP but is to avoid getting ganked by people with insecurities.
    You should probably socialize more... i can guarantee every server has pvpers, you just havent found yours. We found ours during wintergrasp and tol barad matches usually, they were the ones with the best possible pvp gear. Its not my fault if your scared to do these "world pvp"-battlegrounds when they are introduced.

    Its a whole different experience when opposing faction comes outside your capital city and tries to get some fights where they will be outnumbered.
    Thats just my guess, go ask the pvpers... why would they do that, i simply went and had fun driving them away. It gave us something to do instead of afking in cities waiting for queues to pop or raids to start.
    Thats literally what people did in classic aswell... there are probably hundreds of pvp videos where some guy goes near the opposing faction capital and kills some nubs, its obvious people would try to replicate that experience since it "looked so cool" in the video.

    I dont know why would you think they have to be griefers and come to kill our flightmaster.
    The wonders of oldschool world pvp... people did it for fun, not to grief.

  8. #588
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    It's appeal to authority, not actual proof.
    It's not a mere appeal to authority to believe a person with access to vastly more data on the subject knows better.

  9. #589
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    You need to actually go back and read my posts on the subject instead of making assumptions. I'm not asking for a simple convenience. I never have except as an illustration of how pointless boring tasks are once their initial purpose had been served months ago.
    I have read your posts.

    All of them conclude "Therefore, bring back flight without pathfinder."

    This isn't a solution to the problem you claimed you're asking for. What you say is irrelevant, because what you're arguing for still isn't going to solve the problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

  10. #590
    Let the kitten live!

  11. #591
    Quote Originally Posted by Otaka View Post
    You dont get it... im not a pvper and saying it wont make it true.
    The only reason why people play on PvE servers is not to avoid PvP but is to avoid getting ganked by people with insecurities.
    You should probably socialize more... i can guarantee every server has pvpers, you just havent found yours. We found ours during wintergrasp and tol barad matches usually, they were the ones with the best possible pvp gear. Its not my fault if your scared to do these "world pvp"-battlegrounds when they are introduced.

    Its a whole different experience when opposing faction comes outside your capital city and tries to get some fights where they will be outnumbered.
    Thats just my guess, go ask the pvpers... why would they do that, i simply went and had fun driving them away. It gave us something to do instead of afking in cities waiting for queues to pop or raids to start.
    Thats literally what people did in classic aswell... there are probably hundreds of pvp videos where some guy goes near the opposing faction capital and kills some nubs, its obvious people would try to replicate that experience since it "looked so cool" in the video.

    I dont know why would you think they have to be griefers and come to kill our flightmaster.
    The wonders of oldschool world pvp... people did it for fun, not to grief.
    We talk about cities, because they're the only place, where players would 100% get PVP-flagged. This is the only case, when PVP is deliberately. In all other cases it's so called "accidental" PVP. I call it forced, because devs design world specifically to maximize chance of "accidental" PVP. And what can happen - will happen. Sooner or later.

    What you talk about, was valid to some degree on PVE servers. It's concept of voluntary PVP. You aren't ready for "open" world PVP (because you're coward, don't like to lose, unskilled or something), but may be you don't like Arenas/BGs too. Dunno, how to call such player. Pseudo-PVPer? But we have War Mode now and this argument is no longer valid. Now if you want to PVP - just switch War Mode on. If you don't - switch it off. PVP - isn't valid reason to remove flying in PVE mode, sorry. PVE mode isn't intended for PVP. PVP-flag - is just rudiment from the past. Blizzard still don't want to admit, that content, like attacking other faction's capital city, can be PVE too. It can be turned into raid for example. That's why they still treat other faction's cities as PVP zones, while it's no longer necessary.

    What's the difference between PVP in War Mode and PVP without it? PVP in PVE mode is "safer"? But then may be problem isn't with War Mode or flying? It's with YOU? May be you lack skill or something?
    Last edited by WowIsDead64; 2019-03-13 at 10:22 AM.
    We play RPG - not adventure and/or platformer, like Tomb Rider or Assassin's Creed.
    Blizzard should either remove features, that don't fit into RPG genre, or enable flying to avoid them for players, who don't like them.
    Flying - is like ability to turn PVP-flag off. It allows devs to design content purely for "PVPers" without risk of harming "PVEers".
    My perfect Wow.

  12. #592
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    This isn't a solution to the problem you claimed you're asking for. What you say is irrelevant, because what you're arguing for still isn't going to solve the problem.
    I am not going to disagree with your logic.

    However that doesn't mean that aren't legitimate problems which flying does solve. Flying is a means to skip boring 'content' in order to get to enjoyable content.

    The argument really isn't that difficult to understand, and once you deconstruct the problem, the flaw in Blizzard's thinking is pretty obvious:

    When a new expansion comes out, immersion enhances the player experience because the process of exploration and discovery = fun content. But as players continue to spend time in the environment, part of the process is that the sense of exploration is gradually replaced with familiarity until all sense of discovery and exploration, the 'fun' part of the immersion, is gone.

    And therein lies Blizzard's fallacy. They correctly understand that flying ruins that sense of immersion that is necessary for the process of exploration and discovery. What they fail to grasp is that the process of exploration and discovery is not repeatable with the same content. They believe that forcing players to remain in a state of immersion that they can extend the process of exploration and discovery - which of course they cannot, because it's not about the immersion, it's about the unfamiliarity with the content which has an inherent, built in expiration property.

    Even worse is that once the sense of exploration and discovery has been expended for any given content, not only does the sense of immersion achieved by forcing players to experience content from the ground stop being enjoyable, it actually starts being the opposite - travel becomes tedious.

    In essence, Blizzard are making exactly the same mistake you're alluding to: They are trying to use the prolonged prohibition on flying to try and solve a problem it cannot solve.


    I still enjoy BfA content. And while I quite enjoyed getting to know the expansion by exploring the terrain on foot when the expansion was new, it has been some time now since that part of the game has held any attraction whatsoever. There is lots stuff I want to do in the game, but instead I am stuck on ground mount spending 2/3 of my time just getting there. It's the equivalent of spending time in traffic and serves only to detract from my experience.
    Last edited by Raelbo; 2019-03-13 at 10:10 AM.

  13. #593
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    In essence, Blizzard are making exactly the same mistake you're alluding to: They are trying to use the prolonged prohibition on flying to try and solve a problem it cannot solve.
    Except that you're putting words in their mouth.

    They never claimed they're trying to extend the process of unfamiliarity on the continent. You said that for them, from your understanding of their changes. Their intent was for people to experience the content the way it was designed - Which was from a ground perspective. Removing flight DOES force people to experience content from the ground, as they intended it - So it's actually working exactly as intended.

    When they had flight, they still designed everything from a ground perspective. And unfortunately, this doesn't seem to be something they're immediately ready to move away from.

    Based on our previous experience with non-ground content in the game (Fel Cannons in BC, Vehicles in Wrath -not just Wintergrasp, the DK starting area as well-, a certain zone of quests in Cata that were technically underwater, but still the same idea of 3D content), it's quite clear that Blizzard is entirely incapable of creating flighted content that isn't on a railway like the Quel'danas bombing run.

    In all of the above examples, there was a problem with setting the hitbox of the target. Fel cannons couldn't hit moving targets, so as long as you kept flying you'd never get hit. Vehicles in Wrath? Same problem - The Wintergrasp flying vehicles ultimately got removed before launch and were never reimplemented for this reason, and you can still prove it by going and doing the DK starting area. Set yourself to autorun when you get the frost drake and see how long it takes for the enemies on the ground to hit you enough to have to heal. They don't predict movement at all - They shoot as if you aren't moving when they fire. And then Cata comes with Vash'jir, finally providing 3D content that doesn't fuck with the hitbox, probably the closest thing we've had to content in 3 dimensions in WoW, and it's universally one of the most despised zones for that reason alone. (I will not say THE most despised, because Ul'dum is pretty high up there for most as well due to the pop culture references - But definitely high on the list of most despised zones.)

    Ultimately, if you want an answer for why they "don't just try it" - There's your answer. It's not that they don't - It's that they did, and people hated it.
    Last edited by Fleugen; 2019-03-13 at 10:25 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

  14. #594
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Except that you're putting words in their mouth.

    They never claimed they're trying to extend the process of unfamiliarity on the continent. You said that for them, from your understanding of their changes. Their intent was for people to experience the content the way it was designed - Which was from a ground perspective. Removing flight DOES force people to experience content from the ground, as they intended it - So it's actually working exactly as intended.

    When they had flight, they still designed everything from a ground perspective. And unfortunately, this doesn't seem to be something they're immediately ready to move away from.

    Based on our previous experience with non-ground content in the game (Fel Cannons in BC, Vehicles in Wrath -not just Wintergrasp, the DK starting area as well-, a certain zone of quests in Cata that were technically underwater, but still the same idea of 3D content), it's quite clear that Blizzard is entirely incapable of creating flighted content that isn't on a railway like the Quel'danas bombing run.

    In all of the above examples, there was a problem with setting the hitbox of the target. Fel cannons couldn't hit moving targets, so as long as you kept flying you'd never get hit. Vehicles in Wrath? Same problem - The Wintergrasp flying vehicles ultimately got removed before launch and were never reimplemented for this reason, and you can still prove it by going and doing the DK starting area. Set yourself to autorun when you get the frost drake and see how long it takes for the enemies on the ground to hit you enough to have to heal. They don't predict movement at all - They shoot as if you aren't moving when they fire. And then Cata comes with Vash'jir, finally providing 3D content that doesn't fuck with the hitbox, probably the closest thing we've had to content in 3 dimensions in WoW, and it's universally one of the most despised zones for that reason alone. (I will not say THE most despised, because Ul'dum is pretty high up there for most as well due to the pop culture references - But definitely high on the list of most despised zones.)

    Ultimately, if you want an answer for why they "don't just try it" - There's your answer. It's not that they don't - It's that they did, and people hated it.
    Don't just assume - provide proofs instead.
    Dev Watercooler: Flying in Draenor
    We play RPG - not adventure and/or platformer, like Tomb Rider or Assassin's Creed.
    Blizzard should either remove features, that don't fit into RPG genre, or enable flying to avoid them for players, who don't like them.
    Flying - is like ability to turn PVP-flag off. It allows devs to design content purely for "PVPers" without risk of harming "PVEers".
    My perfect Wow.

  15. #595
    Keyboard Turner Darliane Sunblood's Avatar
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    I don't see why they oppose early flying so much when it worked perfectly in TBC, Wrath and MoP.

  16. #596
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    Don't just assume - provide proofs instead.
    Dev Watercooler: Flying in Draenor
    Which was released after:
    https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...77123?page=1#6

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Flying trivializes combat. A lot of people like to say we're trying to force world PvP, or that we just really want people to look at the pretty trees we made, but those really aren't the reasons that drive this same decision we've made every expansion. Flying allows you to escape or enter combat at-will. There's a reason why flying isn't allowed in dungeons and raids, or battlegrounds and arenas, and that's because it would trivialize the core mechanic of the game in those areas - combat. For much the same reason it trivializes how content is approached in the outdoor world based on the simple fact that you can lift off and set down wherever you like.

    So that's the main reason. But sure there are a lot of other problems it can cause for content design such as zones having to get a lot bigger because flying mounts can travel so quickly (and thus making ground travel in them take much longer), it reduces the impact of elevation within zones, it completely removes the ability for us to pace or present content in any structured way, and in general removes our ability to determine how and when players approach a situation, see a vista or location, or charge into/out-of a combat situation. It just greatly reduces any gameplay we want to create by allowing infinite choice in how content is approached to best suit a player's intention to (usually) avoid that content.

    I totally sympathize with people's desire to do that, they want to be efficient and have it be their choice, but we have to balance our intent to create a game against creating a sandbox where anything goes. There's a happy medium there somewhere, but flying mounts in most cases just do too much to undermine too many of our core intentions with the game world, the basis of the game: combat, or guiding players through a game experience, and for those reasons we have continually chosen (when we could) to disallow flying mounts in the 'current' outdoor content.
    In the past that's meant only while leveling, but in our experiences with the Isle of Thunder and Timeless Isle we feel like we can extend that for a bit longer in the new content, and have it be kind of a big deal again once you're able to earn flying in the first big content patch, and in the meantime putting focus on flight paths as well as having some more interesting travel options for players to use.
    This was when the idea was first released for WoD not having flight.
    Last edited by Fleugen; 2019-03-13 at 10:59 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

  17. #597
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    I have read your posts.

    All of them conclude "Therefore, bring back flight without pathfinder."

    This isn't a solution to the problem you claimed you're asking for. What you say is irrelevant, because what you're arguing for still isn't going to solve the problem.
    I think you need to consider a very important distinction between me pointing out the flaws with Pathfinder, and me talking about what's possible with flying. These are two VERY different subjects, and not necessarily one leading directly to the other.
    In case it wasn't clear, I'm a fan of what Blizzard COULD be, not the ruins of what it is now.

  18. #598
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    I think you need to consider a very important distinction between me pointing out the flaws with Pathfinder, and me talking about what's possible with flying. These are two VERY different subjects, and not necessarily one leading directly to the other.
    And I think you need to do a better job creating a distinction between the two.

    If in the same post you are arguing that Pathfinder should be removed, but you are using reasoning that suggests they should do more with air content, you're suggesting the solution of "Pathfinder should be removed" for the problem "They don't do enough with air content."

    Now I have homework for you: Tell me how this post, which I can promise you has not been editted by me in any way, creates a distinction here:

    Because Blizzard refuses to stop being lazy and actually design with flying in mind!

    It's funny how people who dogmatically defend no-flying never look past this simple fact: The game used to have flying as part of the design. Removing it only allows Blizzard to create more simplistic open world encounters. Is that REALLY what you want? A stupid, simplified, design who's only purpose is to waste your time with idiot-level obstacles like roots and log walls? Well guess what? Classic servers are coming for all your grounded enjoyment.

    How about instead of that we get an actual fantasy setting. FFS, our characters have fought demons, dragons, archmages, and demigods. The PLAYERS have been at this for over a decade in many cases. We've EARNED our power increases. We WANT to feel powerful, not like some peasant slogging through the mud because they don't know any better.

    Is flying more powerful? Yes! OF COURSE it is. That's the whole point. Do you still use your shitty vendor trash gear from level 12, or did you power up and get new abilities? Flying is exactly the same.

    The only thing you're supporting, by fighting against access to flight, is Blizzard being able to continue using cheap, lazy, uncreative, formulaic trash-level open world content.
    (Spoiler: This is the post I responded to, so try real hard or you'll just end up looking silly.)
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

  19. #599
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    And I think you need to do a better job creating a distinction between the two.

    If in the same post you are arguing that Pathfinder should be removed, but you are using reasoning that suggests they should do more with air content, you're suggesting the solution of "Pathfinder should be removed" for the problem "They don't do enough with air content."

    Now I have homework for you: Tell me how this post, which I can promise you has not been editted by me in any way, creates a distinction here:



    (Spoiler: This is the post I responded to, so try real hard or you'll just end up looking silly.)
    I'll start by pointing out that you DID edit the post. You cut out the latter part of it, where I said:

    "Returning flight to the open world design isn't about convenience, or wanting to skip past everything. It's about wanting Blizzard to start thinking outside of the box again. It's about getting them to innovate, and create NEW, more complex obstacles, challenges, and enjoyable environments. "

    I also point out that in no point in that post is Pathfinder mentioned.

    I'm not sure where your confusion about this post comes from.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2019-03-13 at 11:45 AM.
    In case it wasn't clear, I'm a fan of what Blizzard COULD be, not the ruins of what it is now.

  20. #600
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    I'll start by pointing out that you DID edit the post. You cut out the latter part of it, where I said:

    "Returning flight to the open world design isn't about convenience, or wanting to skip past everything. It's about wanting Blizzard to start thinking outside of the box again. It's about getting them to innovate, and create NEW, more complex obstacles, challenges, and enjoyable environments. "

    I also point out that in no point in that post is Pathfinder mentioned.

    I'm not sure where your confusion about this comes from, especially considering that what I was responding to was a claim that flying was too much of an advantage.
    So "Arguing against access to Flight" isn't about pathfinder? Then what would "Arguing against access to Flight" be?

    I even bolded that part for you to make it easy.

    And thank you for quoting the rest of the post - I cut it out because it had no relevance, but it actually helps show your lack of understanding of the words you're using to convey your thoughts. You spell out the problem, but your solution STILL doesn't resolve it.

    It's about wanting Blizzard to start thinking outside of the box again. It's about getting them to innovate, and create NEW, more complex obstacles, challenges, and enjoyable environments.
    And we return to my original post, which quoted this exact line, and was:

    Then argue for this. Not Flight.

    Flight doesn't give you this. Flight gives you the same thing with flight. Which is not better.
    And the cycle begins again unless you can realize your circular logic isn't valid.

    And before you go claiming you didn't say it did, here is the line right before it again for reference.

    The only thing you're supporting, by fighting against access to flight, is Blizzard being able to continue using cheap, lazy, uncreative, formulaic trash-level open world content.
    In other words: Fighting the removal of Pathfinder in favor of a gold cost at max level to gain flight, which is what you want you've made that very clear since the day flight was touched - Means you're arguing in favor of worse content. That's YOUR words.

    Which also suggests: Fighting FOR The removal of Pathfinder in favor of a gold cost at max level to gain flight, means you're arguing in favor of better ground content. Which I've pointed out to you several times, is false.

    If that's not what you meant to say, then you're doing a terrible job of explaining yourself. But that's not really a surprise at this point, you've been reposting the same points since WoD about flight, and they haven't gotten you anywhere since and hopefully won't anytime soon.
    Last edited by Fleugen; 2019-03-13 at 11:57 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

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