Jaina hotfixes

[Nitros14]

What's up with the elemental health nerf? Is anyone actually going to kill it?

[Yunaqt]

I doubt it especially since her health was also nerfed.

[KaPe]

Seems really pointless to nerf the elemental without changing anything else in P3. If they made it absolutely necessary to kill it - be it forced splitting after X seconds, some pseudo-enrage effect, uninterruptible casts or empowering Jaina somehow - this would make more sense, especially since they also nerfed the overall damage. They made the first step but forgot to go the full way.

[xcess]

people have to watch their cleave now

[Dracodraco]

Might accidently cleave 15mil huh?

13.4M * 0.65 = 8.71M.
This is the damage we did on our kill to it:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...0682&target=99

So... Yea.

[aeonss]

13.4M * 0.65 = 8.71M.
This is the damage we did on our kill to it:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...0682&target=99

So... Yea.

Sorry but found something weird from the log, your raid healer doing 17k dps while hunt doing 19k dps?

[Marrilaife]

Sorry but found something weird from the log, your raid healer doing 17k dps while hunt doing 19k dps?

Which healer doing 17k dps and when? Cuz I can't see any of them being that high. They don't have a disc.

[Hypasonic]

Sorry but found something weird from the log, your raid healer doing 17k dps while hunt doing 19k dps?

Because they 5 healed it with an extra resto shaman with igneous potential traits dpsing and there just to drop an extra link/tide.

[xcess]

Which healer doing 17k dps and when? Cuz I can't see any of them being that high. They don't have a disc.

Lensy is showing as healer

[Dracodraco]

Sorry but found something weird from the log, your raid healer doing 17k dps while hunt doing 19k dps?

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...Any%24true%240 strictly speaking he did about 16K dps while the hunter did about 20K, effectively, through 2.5 intermission->p3.

But yea, he pumps lava bursts. Nothing new there :s.

[suprep]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...Any%24true%240 strictly speaking he did about 16K dps while the hunter did about 20K, effectively, through 2.5 intermission->p3.

But yea, he pumps lava bursts. Nothing new there :s.

Tell Seerax I said hi

[Marrilaife]

Because they 5 healed it with an extra resto shaman with igneous potential traits dpsing and there just to drop an extra link/tide.

Oh yea didn't notice it's a 5 heal setup, my bad. Only seen some Chinese guilds before having 5th healer that most dpses, but it was usually holy pala or disc.

[Dracodraco]

9 Mil you are right, but still. Thats not something you accidently cleave. And the damage you do to the elemental is wasted (besides getting resources or cdr) until jaina is nearby

While there is lots of passive cleave or cleave to increase your ST damage, some of your raiders still did pad.

1Mil damage to the Elemental before Jaina got attacked as well extremely minor ST increases like blade fury or sweeping strikes and actual padding like crash lightning.

You dont accidently do 9mil cleave damage in a 90s ST race, so like I said, a non issue.

First off, most guilds have to point out that people need to try and chill the fuck out to not kill the elemental now; It's very common for it to be ~10% when the boss dies.

Second, the damage done to the elemental before jaina got attacked is largely building up resources to SPEND on Jaina, because there's nothing else to hit. There's surely some things you could avoid using, but to think all of it is just pure pad is silly.

Second, the fact that you think Crash lightning is "actual padding" means you don't even understand how enhancement works, so I'd be very hesitant to think you have much understanding of how big of a single target increase hitting the elemental is for *other* classes that gains from it, like with BF and sweeping strikes. Just to give you a bit of an illustration, here's our enhancement shamans wall damage on our kill:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...done&target=98

And here is our enhancement's wall damage on a pull where one of our tanks got frozen right as we entered the wall phase, allowing a second target for the enhancement to cleave with, buffing his single-target damage, two pulls earlier:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...et=98&fight=23

There's stuff that can be done to tone it down, but keep in mind that on our kill we already did more than 1M damage more than we could.


The worst part is that with such a huge HP nerf (elemental at 8.71M, the two that splits off at 2.6M each) Blizzard clearly *wants* us to want to kill the elemental, but the truth of the matter is that as long as the debuff starts ticking as soon as the wall dies, you're on the clock, so it'll never actually happen; I could totally see guilds try to kill the elemental with the remainder of lust then AOE nathanos/the 2x small spawns (they all have ~2.6M hp) together if the debuffs didn't start re-applying untill Nathanos was freed from the ice block, but right now the timing of getting that stack reset is much more important.

[Dracodraco]

??

Do you think I cant read logs? Cause you forget to mention besides having 2 targets to proc crash lightning, he also got double dice buff & insane hot hand proc luck. There is a reason your shaman does around 20k-24k dps in p3 compared to the 48k linked in the log.

I don't play enh and I didn't look into buffs; I will just quote exactly what you said, because I know for a fact that it's wrong:

actual padding like crash lightning.

.

It's a significant single target increase. It's not padding anymore than SS or BF is.

Also the Elemental only having 10% left at the kill isnt a problem either. The problem only starts when its dead.

Right - I never said the elemental having 10% left was an issue. I said the fact that you think we won't "accidentally" cleave 8.7M damage when we did more than a million more on our first kill, and most guilds end up with the add almost dying right now is sort of silly. Yea, it's in danger of getting fucking killed unless you specifically stop people from *gaining single target* damage from it.

I think you are just moving your goal post. You can do easily do less damage to the elemental during p2.5, there also have been nerfs to jaina's hp & the ice damage, 5 healers w/ 1 doing mostly dps also gets more common and common & and the very very end if you truly need it, you can forbid some classes to cleave even if they lose some ST.

What fucking goal post. I said that guilds are having to tell people to stop gaining single target damage by hitting it because it has so low HP it's in danger of dying. I linked a log showing that without any real excessive padding, it would have died on our first kill if it had 35% less health, as an example of "yea, this is totally a thing to be concerned about now".

As for the nerfs to Jaina's HP, not really super relevant when Demo locks have also been gutted. It's a slight help. You'll also notice that we are already 5 healing the encounter, so it's not like we're going to be able to swap a healer in and lower our elemental damage that way :thinking:


Again, let me make 100% sure you don't go fucking spouting bullshit just because you think you found a semantic flaw in the point I'm trying to get across, and bullet point this for you:

1: Before the nerf, cleave on elemental was W/E. You were never in danger of killing it, so everyone could fully optimise their single-target damage around it.

2: Post nerf, we now have to decide who gets to cleave the elemental, because if we don't hold some classes back, it WILL die and it will cause wipes to have 2x small ones out.

3: I have linked logs to prove that yes, people easily did 9M damage to the elemental pre-nerf just by virtue of cleaving.

4: Yes, this can be sorted out, but that doesn't change that this is an indirect buff to the difficulty of the encounter. There's been nerfs making it easier (damage intake and boss health), but the change to the elemental is 100% irrelevant to ANYTHING, as no guild will ever even attempt to kill it unless they change when jaina starts stacking up her debuff to after Nathanos breaks free, instead of after you break the wall. Given this, you now have an extra thing to worry about in P3 because of a change that accomplishes nothing else.

[mauserr]

??

Do you think I cant read logs? Cause you forget to mention besides having 2 targets to proc crash lightning, he also got double dice buff & insane hot hand proc luck. There is a reason your shaman does around 20k-24k dps in p3 compared to the 48k linked in the log.

Also the Elemental only having 10% left at the kill isnt a problem either. The problem only starts when its dead.


I think you are just moving your goal post. You can do easily do less damage to the elemental during p2.5, there also have been nerfs to jaina's hp & the ice damage, 5 healers w/ 1 doing mostly dps also gets more common and common & and the very very end if you truly need it, you can forbid some classes to cleave even if they lose some ST.

You're arguing about raiding and end boss mythic plays with a guy that raids in a World 12 guild. Bruh. Unless you outrank his guild, his main class, or any of his guild's rooster class, you have absolutely no argument whatsoever there...

[Tech614]

*lets nerf the health of the elemental nobody kills and lets certain classes get significant ST dps increases by cleaving or multi dotting onto* Who was the genius at blizzard that thought up this hot fix nerf? Unless you nerf the stack situation nobody is going to kill that thing so this only adds another thing to worry about onto the encounter.

Especially as the guilds progressing on Jaina now will be at progressively higher ilvls on a week to week basis, making it even easier to get the elemental low even faster. It definitely throws a wrench into the encounter and another thing you need to micro manage your raiders on not sure what Yindoo is trying to debate about tbh lol. It's not the end of the world, it's just a dumb change that doesn't make the encounter easier at all. If they wanted to nerf the 5% health is more then enough for right now to get guilds over the hump.

[Daan]

So what is the intention? Blizzard want guilds to kill that elemental because they're ignoring it to avoid the mythic-only ability? Blizzard failed with the fix during the world first race and they failed again with the health nerf.

[Dracodraco]

*lets nerf the health of the elemental nobody kills and lets certain classes get significant ST dps increases by cleaving or multi dotting onto* Who was the genius at blizzard that thought up this hot fix nerf? Unless you nerf the stack situation nobody is going to kill that thing so this only adds another thing to worry about onto the encounter.

Especially as the guilds progressing on Jaina now will be at progressively higher ilvls on a week to week basis, making it even easier to get the elemental low even faster. It definitely throws a wrench into the encounter and another thing you need to micro manage your raiders on not sure what Yindoo is trying to debate about tbh lol. It's not the end of the world, it's just a dumb change that doesn't make the encounter easier at all. If they wanted to nerf the 5% health is more then enough for right now to get guilds over the hump.

It'd be super easy to "fix" not killing the elemental now as well, and I think it'd make for a better encounter instead of this amalgamation where you literally have to *click off* bloodlust. It's so counter-intuitive as a mechanic.

For whatever intern at Blizzard that might monitor this, here's your fix:

Make Jaina not stack chilling debuff untill Nathanos is *freed*, instead of when the wall is *broken*. That way you have until the ice reaches the boat to kill off the elemental+free Nathanos, and the small elementals+Nathanos has the exact same HP so people would single-target burst elemental just like the wall, then AOE the 3x low-Hp mobs, and boom, it's worth killing the elemental cos stacks don't start ticking till you're out of the phase anyway.

[supersnap]

Our jaina kill this week the elemental had less than 100k hp on the kill. If we had more of the big cleave classes it would have easily died just by cleave.

I would love to see Yindoo logs of their elemental damage taken. Would be interesting to see what a "none padding" guilds elemental health looks like.

[Dracodraco]

His signature says Echoes, which are World 93?! Other guilds have been mysteriously able to kill Jaina after the hidden buff of removing 35% of the Elementals HP.

Nobody ever said that you can't kill the boss. You're being deliberatelly obtuse because you know your argument is weak. There was no reason for the health nerf on the elemental, and it's an additional difficulty added to the fight, which goes entirely *against* the two other "nerfs" they made to make the fight *easier*. It was a stupid change, and it only serves to punish guilds with heavy accidental-cleave setups.

Again its a none issue but if draco likes to continue to argue that his theoretical guild problem is a problem for every guild ever, go for it.

You'll be hard pressed to give me examples of guilds where they haven't had to take precautions from cleaving the elemental dead post-hotfix .