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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by NoGodPleaseNo View Post
    Erm yes, technically, but they don't think it's bad, the problem is, is what they think people want from an MMORPG isn't what most people want from an MMORPG.

    I was lucky enough to be involved in a very good break down in another thread, and what came out of that was some clarity for me on why at least I don't like current wow.

    And the break down is as follows:

    Rpg's or any game with a role playing element, either table top or digital both solo or mmo, can be broken down into 3 fundamentals.

    Narrative
    Simulation
    (And for lack of a better term) gameism

    Narrative and simulation are self explanatory, narrative gameplay elements are the quest systems, and the systems that deliver the narrative of the game, simulation is a bit more nuanced, but its essentially the systems that give immursion, freedoms a realism, so like eso's stealing and bounty systems stuff like that, then there gameism which is the regimenting of the game, its the balance and fostering of competitiveness, the limitations on the system that create fair competition between players.

    A good rpg find exactly the right balance of those 3 things, specific to its medium, and usually that's with more emphasis on narrative and simulation as most rpg's on the table top or solo have not much need for the gameist elements except for things to not be too broken that it trivialise's the challenges.

    The problem with wow and why Alot of people don't like calling it an rpg anymore is, the dynamic has been flipped, wow is primeraly focused on that gameism, hence the minimal talents, freedom and customization of skills, and the theme park nature of how you are pushed through content, it's become to focused on being fair for every one, with the idea that raiding is a competition between guilds and also between players for top dps, top healing, and pvp and m+ leader boards ofc. The whole game funnels into something competitive. Which doesn't gel well at all with many classical rpg elements of freedom of choice to define your charicture and narrative how you want within the world, because that might make you suboptimal for the competitive side of wow.

    And this imo has come about due to brain drain, the guys who origonaly designed wow weren't rpg specialist's but they were avid dnd fans and players so had an instinctual grasp of these concepts, that wow dev team is long dead and gone now, the current head of the dev studio ion is a good guy but he's from the back ground of hardcore raiding, to him wow is all about the gameism, I don't know why any one finds it shocking that wow has shed Alot of the extra stuff to focus on easy balance and end came competitive elements under him, because that's what he and likly Alot of the new devs have been brought to belive makes wow a good game, sadly the community disagrees.
    This is actually a very impressive and well-thought out post. And I agree with pretty much all of it.

  2. #142
    In a sense yes. I don't think that they make the game bad on purpose, but I do think they intentionally take risks and knowingly put less resources and effort into patches and expansions thinking that it might just be enough and they might just get away with it.

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Walross View Post
    It's pretty clear that neither Blizzard nor the community understands that.
    Yes I agree, The art of user needs analysis is hard even when it's central to design. When the concept has been, I won't say lost but tainted, it can create difficulty in useful communication between customer and product owner.

    Also not really helped as they cut Alot of the communications staff who likly performed a role that was similar, Or at least part of that system.

    I do not know if that's telling or evidence of what I have highlighted, as that would be presumptuous without internal knowledge.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboozler View Post
    Most of us don't anymore.
    But you still cannot let it go.

  5. #145
    No, I think they just somehow believe that more accessibility = more money. We've sacrificed much on the altar of accessibility but I don't believe (and would refuse to believe) that it actually kept people subscribed and pulled new people in.

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by misterrium View Post
    hey guys so I was thinking that we all agree that thers a decline in quality and other things. Not gonna start another databe how BFA sucks but I now think that blizz wants to make it bad so that they can lessen the resources from the game and lets focus on future maybe with minimum cost to wow. So that way the bad design could be an excuse for the players to leave the WoW ship and blizz can do more and more less to the WoW?
    i agree with you one hundred percent. um i think this is a prediction to what the future is bringing to the game. im really discouraged to continue subscription.

  7. #147
    Old God Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboozler View Post
    Actually, I did let it go. Nice try though.
    Don't worry, that guy will pull a strawman about how you actually didn't let it go since you are posting in MMOC. He seems incapable of a honest discussion.
    Quote Originally Posted by trimble View Post
    WoD was the expansion that was targeted at non raiders.

  8. #148
    Elemental Lord sam86's Avatar
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    they are trying to max profit, doing less to gain more, this just not working, doing less made them earn less
    the 'decline' in quality took a reverse direction during legion, but legion came because they sh8t upon WoD, ignoring it for its entire existence, with selfie patch and a raid delayed since beta
    while i hate BFA, it is nowhere near WoS status, they are still working in it, so doubt next exp will be legion quantity
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
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  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    they are trying to max profit, doing less to gain more, this just not working, doing less made them earn less
    Dont believe to be the case.
    WoW is getting decent updates. They are spending money on the game as far as i can see.

    You could argue the "quality" of said content is not for you.

    But i think is more a matter of lack of imagination on Blizzards part...coupled with a change in target audience...and constant catering to the lowest common denominator.

    At least thats what i think.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Cracked View Post
    No, I think they just somehow believe that more accessibility = more money. We've sacrificed much on the altar of accessibility but I don't believe (and would refuse to believe) that it actually kept people subscribed and pulled new people in.
    Because reality proved them true. WoW became the largest MMORPG of the time because of accessibility, and any attempt to make things less accessible went pear-shaped quickly.

    Belief is not a good basis for economic decisions.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Togabito View Post
    Dont believe to be the case.
    WoW is getting decent updates. They are spending money on the game as far as i can see.

    You could argue the "quality" of said content is not for you.

    But i think is more a matter of lack of imagination on Blizzards part...coupled with a change in target audience...and constant catering to the lowest common denominator.

    At least thats what i think.
    Don't be fooled, both 8.1 and 8.1.5 were cut content at launch to be funneled back in. As for the patches, 8.1 was defiantely not decent, it was a glorified bug/system fix with a shallow experience thrown in with a raid that was held off on for another 6 weeks to spread the content out..

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Because reality proved them true. WoW became the largest MMORPG of the time because of accessibility, and any attempt to make things less accessible went pear-shaped quickly.

    Belief is not a good basis for economic decisions.
    But your argument falls flat when the less accessibe expansions were the one with the most subscribers :S

    I mean, sure Vanilla was more accessible than the rest of the MMORPGs on the market.

    But Vanilla compared to today...was ruthless and unforgiving to casuals.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by darklogrus View Post
    Don't be fooled, both 8.1 and 8.1.5 were cut content at launch to be funneled back in. As for the patches, 8.1 was defiantely not decent, it was a glorified bug/system fix with a shallow experience thrown in with a raid that was held off on for another 6 weeks to spread the content out..
    Humm, ok, maybe.
    But 8.2 looks promissing.
    Last edited by Roanda; 2019-02-23 at 04:18 AM.

  13. #153
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darklogrus View Post
    Don't be fooled, both 8.1 and 8.1.5 were cut content at launch to be funneled back in.
    Is this something you know for a certainty with a verified source or just forum bubble babble?
    "...money's most powerful ability is to allow bad people to continue doing bad things at the expense of those who don't have it."

  14. #154
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    Not intentionally I think they are just caught in a dev echo chamber and don't really understand their audience, or what audience they want to focus on so it ends up being a mishmash of all and it doesn't really satisfy anyone. So either too many or too little cooks in the kitchen.

  15. #155
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    Yes.

    More quantity of content, but lower quality content.

    Trying to maximize profit with minimal effort put in.
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  16. #156
    I used to think it was a case of them thinking "okay we got these players locked in, now to change direction to catch another audience, thats two paying audiences!" but after the whole "most of our devs play mobile games" and the mobage style mechanics of BfA it looks more like this is legitimately what they think makes a good game because they are mobile gamers and their design no longer comes from rpgs. Which i guess is Blizzard just being out of touch with their audience i guess?

  17. #157
    Obviously not intentionally, but let's be honest here, they tried to "innovate" again and they failed. Skill pruning, warfronts, azerite, island expedition all sucks. They made the world, dungeons, raid good again so it still carries the game somewhat, sadly all other content is just really bad at the time, so even though there are tons of content to do, they are just as bad as if there weren't any. I see no reason to login other than do mythic+ weekly, raid 2 times, because the repeatable content is just so lackluster. They will probably fix things by the end of expansion, it is just kinda sad to see this happening again. When I came back to later into the expansion in Legion I had the most fun playing WoW in years, then they took away the good things, and gave us new but really unpolished or straight up boring things.
    Last edited by Dizson; 2019-02-23 at 11:27 AM.

  18. #158
    Please wait Temp name's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dizson View Post
    Obviously not intentionally, but let's be honest here, they tried to "innovate" again and they failed. Skill pruning, warfronts, azerite, island expedition all sucks. They made the world, dungeons, raid good again so it still carries the game somewhat, sadly all other content is just really bad at the time, so even though there are tons of content to do, they are just as bad as if there weren't any. I see no reason to login other than do mythic+ weekly, raid 2 times, because the repeatable content is just so lackluster. They will probably fix things by the end of expansion, it is just kinda sad to see this happening again. When I came back to later into the expansion in Legion I had the most fun playing WoW in years, then they took away the good things, and gave us new but really unpolished or straight up boring things.
    Azerite doesn't suck, it's literally just artifact power. That said, they took all the good parts out of artifacts when they made the Azerite armor.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Temp name View Post
    Azerite doesn't suck, it's literally just artifact power. That said, they took all the good parts out of artifacts when they made the Azerite armor.
    It's not just literally artifact power, when yourself said that it is less. Simple answer: Unlocking Artifact Power was fun and rewarding, made the gameplay better and your character actually evolved, how you unlocked them mattered early in mythic+ or raid, unlocking Azerite is boring, all the traits just add raw bonus hp or dmg, like what the fuck, there is actually no choice on what to unlock, because the other trait is absolutely shit on top of the RNG on what you get, and they add nothing meaningful to the gameplay, not even cool effects, and before everyone forgets Artifact Power actually gave you new skills to play with.
    Last edited by Dizson; 2019-02-23 at 11:35 AM.

  20. #160
    Elemental Lord sam86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Togabito View Post
    Dont believe to be the case.
    WoW is getting decent updates. They are spending money on the game as far as i can see.

    You could argue the "quality" of said content is not for you.

    But i think is more a matter of lack of imagination on Blizzards part...coupled with a change in target audience...and constant catering to the lowest common denominator.

    At least thats what i think.
    they are doing good job, but start of exp is one of worst if not worst i can think off in all exps
    even WoS started strong the problem was it didn't get any update
    Not sure if i said that here or in another thread but i did say they didn't drop patches like WoS and are still working on wow, the problem was initial dmg - as always - did lot of harm, like how MoP early days were sh8t that it ruined the game for many, even if MoP had very solid steady of content (still has sh8t story, but we talk gameplay here)
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
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    http://youtu.be/x3ejO7Nssj8 7:20+ "Alliance remaining super power", clearly blizz favor horde too much, that they made alliance the super power

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