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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Socialhealer View Post
    yeah but dat AI buff means bring at least 1 mage! when shamans are junk never bring any 1-0 to mages :P
    I mean, it's just a BFA thing where you actually need a mage for the Arcane Intellect buff. Class exclusive buffs weren't a thing for many years untill BFA happened.

    Actually think its such backward design aswell, it just locks a large part of your roster in place due to the buffs. Especially when it comes to the Monk and DH buffs since there is no scrolls to compensate for them.

    Not claiming it's much better to be an Elemental shaman compared to being a mage though don't get me wrong, I'm very aware of how useless Elemental has been for the majority of the raid tiers the past expansions.
    Last edited by Fenryn; 2019-03-04 at 01:30 PM.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenryn View Post
    Actually think its such backward design aswell, it just locks a large part of your roster in place due to the buffs. Especially when it comes to the Monk and DH buffs since there is no scrolls to compensate for them.
    I think they are fine, gives certain classes a "failsafe" and it's okay to have some unique buffs flying around, if it fits the fantasy of a class.

    Stuff like Monk / DH debuff however are just cheap excuses to secure a raid slot, in particular due the lack of substitutes.
    Especially in the light of cramping those slots into Melee specs unless you have a Monk / DH tank.

    This entire thing regarding unique tools is always a bit wonky in general, stuff like Gateway has been invalueable for ages, Tremor is only borderline useful, Windrush / Stampeding generally aren't good enough on their own.

    We just have too many classes / specs for a 20 man roster, part of the issue we face right now is the encounter design, anything that doesn't multi dot or heavily benefits from multi dotting is garbage right now.
    Elemental would be in a similiar spot if Blizzard had not hotfixed Igneous Potential.

    I think Multi dotting in general is a too strong niche in overall, it's as far as raids are concerned, simply not on the same level as "great mobility" or "good AoE", it's much better.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by MrExcelion View Post
    Another problem Frost has is you lose 5k DPS by being within 10 yards of your target, as you can't shatter Glacial. On several of these fights you're stacking in melee. This wasn't a problem last tier because we took Thermal Void, but now that we actually take Glacial, many people still don't know this exists. Before anyone posts that you can work around it, yeah you can sometimes can, but not always.
    Are you sure about it? From my testing, I can't shatter glacial only if I'm standing inside a dummy. If I'm standing at something like 8 yards (so I can still melee it), I'm shattering it just fine. I don't know how to measure the exact distance between me and dummy to make a proper testing, but I definitely don't see it as a real problem, at least on Dalaran dummy.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by vsb View Post
    Are you sure about it? From my testing, I can't shatter glacial only if I'm standing inside a dummy. If I'm standing at something like 8 yards (so I can still melee it), I'm shattering it just fine. I don't know how to measure the exact distance between me and dummy to make a proper testing, but I definitely don't see it as a real problem, at least on Dalaran dummy.
    I should edit that old double lance aura to work for glacial and actually test it now that you mention it and see what works and what doesn't (since manually would be annoying with low crit rates). Varied boss by boss in NH. Still can't justify playing Frost on Mekka or Jaina mythic either way. Two combusts in the last phase of both bosses is just too good. But yeah, I haven't tested it because I'm playing Fire on those bosses. I just know for Mekka I need to stand inside the healing circles close to the boss.

    Other bosses where I'm wary of this coming up include: Jadefire (during the smoke bomb), Opulence (flames of punishment side), Conclave (during winds), Stormwall P1 when stacking sea swells in a big clump near the boss. At least those are just parts of fights.

    Needs testing. Just been too lazy since everything but Mekka in the first 8 is an easy one shot, maybe somebody out there reading this has tested it and wants to chime in.
    Last edited by MrExcelion; 2019-03-04 at 11:35 PM.

  5. #25
    Poor mages are middle of the pack and are still brought to the raid because of stupid utility.

    Maybe play a ret, feral or any shaman spec once so you know how it is when you have to pray to the rng gods every new raidtier that your spec isnt useless.

    Fucking mages are always whining when they are not op. Kinda like warlocks but warlocks were never not op.

  6. #26
    @Exkrementor I would have long since rerolled to a pure. The advantage of playing a pure is having 3 DPS specs. Odds are one of them will be good. Although that's somehow not really been the case for raiding since August, but yeah, just a bad stretch I guess. Though it's worth noting that a lot of people who play pures are still pigeonholed into one spec because of azerite or ultimately a lack of desire. If I wanted to play Arcane, I don't have equipoise pieces. Respeccing is also lame even if you do. Legion was also exceptionally bad with changing specs with many more barriers on top of that. Whenever I went Fire in Antorus or Nighthold, I was suboptimal.

    Either way, I don't think coming to the mage board and pointing the finger at us is the way to go. Appeal to the class designers, not us. We share your pain. The low end should always been brought up to a standard, and Frost was significantly far behind on single target in Uldir. (before it got buffed a couple of times)
    Last edited by MrExcelion; 2019-03-04 at 11:44 PM.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Exkrementor View Post
    Poor mages are middle of the pack and are still brought to the raid because of stupid utility.

    Maybe play a ret
    Tbh if dps was equal and we don't account for the Int buff, I'd rather have one ret in my raids than one mage. Saying Ret doesnt have utility is outright lying and for they've been at least decent on dps as far as I can remember(bar few patches). The only bad thing about Ret is that it's a melee.

  8. #28
    Mages were great # expansions ago, so take what you deserve now, even if you hadn't started playing WoW then.

    This is nonsense.

    The Mage current state is a bigger nonsense. How many other classes have ALL their specs underperforming?

    Atrocious class design is just one of the atrocious things this expansion. We are nearly 7 months into the expansion and there has been little to no work done on class balance. But it is fine as long as we stay subbed, maybe go play a stronger class and shut it.

  9. #29
    Herald of the Titans CptEgo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trumpcat View Post
    Mages were great # expansions ago, so take what you deserve now, even if you hadn't started playing WoW then.

    This is nonsense.

    The Mage current state is a bigger nonsense. How many other classes have ALL their specs underperforming?

    Atrocious class design is just one of the atrocious things this expansion. We are nearly 7 months into the expansion and there has been little to no work done on class balance. But it is fine as long as we stay subbed, maybe go play a stronger class and shut it.
    I don't think you understand what bad class design means, Frost/Fire is extremely fun, it's the tuning that might be a problem.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Trumpcat View Post
    Mages were great # expansions ago, so take what you deserve now, even if you hadn't started playing WoW then.

    This is nonsense.

    The Mage current state is a bigger nonsense. How many other classes have ALL their specs underperforming?

    Atrocious class design is just one of the atrocious things this expansion. We are nearly 7 months into the expansion and there has been little to no work done on class balance. But it is fine as long as we stay subbed, maybe go play a stronger class and shut it.
    mages can only dps though unlike other classes so they should be good at it.
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  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by CptEgo View Post
    Frost/Fire is extremely fun
    Compared to what? Fire feels like an empty spec compared to Legion/WoD Fire, and Frost only seems "fun" now because Legion Frost was a complete snoozefest, MoP Frost and WoD Frost were both significantly more interesting to play.

  12. #32
    Herald of the Titans CptEgo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dizzeeyooo View Post
    Compared to what? Fire feels like an empty spec compared to Legion/WoD Fire, and Frost only seems "fun" now because Legion Frost was a complete snoozefest, MoP Frost and WoD Frost were both significantly more interesting to play.
    Well I was trying out my Ret paladin in a dungeon and barely managed to do the whole dungeon because it was so fucking boring-- Frost is like New Years Eve with champagne bottles popping in comparison.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by CptEgo View Post
    I don't think you understand what bad class design means, Frost/Fire is extremely fun, it's the tuning that might be a problem.
    Frost and Fire right now are both very boring compared to what they were before even if you eliminate the number. Switch to a Demon Lock and see the difference in gameplay. Even forgetting the numbers Demon Locks are so much more fast paced than Frost mages that it totally feels like Blizzard has left the mage gameplay design back in 2004. it is just so drab.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Trumpcat View Post
    Mages were great # expansions ago, so take what you deserve now, even if you hadn't started playing WoW then.

    This is nonsense.

    The Mage current state is a bigger nonsense. How many other classes have ALL their specs underperforming?

    Atrocious class design is just one of the atrocious things this expansion. We are nearly 7 months into the expansion and there has been little to no work done on class balance. But it is fine as long as we stay subbed, maybe go play a stronger class and shut it.
    Yup. pretty much this. Looks like our class design got left back in 2006.

    Frost was terrible most of Legion except for the double Ice Lance gimmick period in NH.

    Fire used to be very good in previous expansions (early Legion with bracers and Belt legos) or in Black Rock Foundry (combustion spreading). But I havent had fun playing a fire mage since as much as I did say in Halfus or Beastlord Darmac. If you really havent done much Combustion Spreading as fire mage in the past, you have probably missed out on the best years as a fire mage.

    But the fact remains that Mages are now getting dominated by every caster class in game currently in raid. And please dont give control in M+ as frost as an excuse to keep us gutted in Mythic Raiding.

    However, as @Kralljin pointed out earlier, it is the modern raid encounter design as a whole which make mages suffer. Modern raid encounters are designed around lots of movement and multidotting spread out targets. Mages are weak at both. Which is why multi dot specs are dominating right now. There are no true patchwerk single target fights any more where mages can actually maybe keep
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    The main function of Mythic mode for most players is to act as a reminder that, compared to that 1%, they suck.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tock20 View Post
    Now you know how the rest of us feel when it's mages are always on top. I agree, it sucks that there is a big difference between the top 25% of classes to the rest, but I don't see that changing. Either reroll, or stick to your guns and do less.
    The other classes mostly have utility that makes up for it.

    Frosts constant slow isn't much utility on bosses where it doesn't matter.

    Our only utility is AI and timewarp, which ele shamans do a shit ton of dps atm, so them > us.

    The only reason to bring a mage is for arcane intellect to buff your raid, ice block cheesing does nothing anywhere in this current raid.

    Mages are meant to be a higher dps class, because they're a pure and they lack a lot of great utility as a lot has been pruned over the years. And they're also pretty squishy, ie a glass cannon.

    This isn't just desserts for mages being the ultimate super dps super tanky dps class over the years (thats warlocks, pretty much every xpac, esp mop), this is blizzard failing to balance us.
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  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Vynestra View Post
    The other classes mostly have utility that makes up for it.

    Frosts constant slow isn't much utility on bosses where it doesn't matter.

    Our only utility is AI and timewarp, which ele shamans do a shit ton of dps atm, so them > us.

    The only reason to bring a mage is for arcane intellect to buff your raid, ice block cheesing does nothing anywhere in this current raid.

    Mages are meant to be a higher dps class, because they're a pure and they lack a lot of great utility as a lot has been pruned over the years. And they're also pretty squishy, ie a glass cannon.

    This isn't just desserts for mages being the ultimate super dps super tanky dps class over the years (thats warlocks, pretty much every xpac, esp mop), this is blizzard failing to balance us.
    If it weren't for AI, then people would never bring a mage this expansion, that is true. Imagine hybrids having more DPS and more utility than a mage, what a time to be alive.

    Especially in a raid like this, which has a ton of benefits for classes like SP/Warlock. Warlock has the gateway, healthstones and are better in every way to a mage. SPs are pretty insane themselves. If we bring in Balance druids instead of just including clothies then it's even worse. Oh well.
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  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Tycruise View Post
    Completely agree, I hate playing frost and arcane even more, but I've finally caved and started playing frost. I've played and excelled at fire throughout most of the game, even when other specs at times were on top, but compared to the other mage specs it's in the crapper, and compared to other casters (locks, spriests, boomkins, shamans, etc) mages are in the crapper. I'm the only mage in my guild and other than somewhat decent dps, I'm only an AI buffer.
    Agree, I love fire, always have since game launch, I played it during times when arcane was the fotm spec and still beat most good arc mages in WOTLK-TOGC, etc. It's just much more of an enjoyable spec to me. I resisted switching to frost, but it's to a point where I had to. I do literally feel like nothing but an intellect buff with a mediocre contribution to damage. Slowing effects.. big deal.. that's great in M+, not so vital in raiding. They should have gotten buff to mages 1 week after pulling the WF bs.

  17. #37
    Mages......sole role is to dps & nearly every dps does it far better, spec doesn't matter. Hybrids who can switch roles mid raid even out dps mages who can ONLY dps...why bring a mage? no reason really

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by CptEgo View Post
    I don't think you understand what bad class design means, Frost/Fire is extremely fun, it's the tuning that might be a problem.
    i want u play one hour of wotlk fire mage . i want you to play current fire mage for one hour. compare. i did lk 10 hc as fire. It felt awsome. aggroing /soaking spirits with bomb, blocking /blinking / mirror imaging those surviving ghosts that would otherwise deal a shit of dmg, evocating / using managems to not go oom, Having big Cumbostions,

    and after all this, still beeing number 1 on the meters (by like 0,2 %) on lk 10 hc firstkill, in a 10 man strict raid, because that last combustion castet 3 seconds before enrage finally pushed him over.

    Wow doesnt have this kind of gameplay experience anymore.


    This was a fun iteration of firemage. U felt like u could burn the whole world.

    And now ? half the abilities that were baseline, and made the spec working, are now talents that exclude themselfes. manamanagment is stupid (eihter its not there, or if u want to actually use spellsteal more often (conclave) , hello you are oom after 5 dispells. Sorry mate, i couldnt save your ass from that fast dino, i had no mana, and managem / evo is not in the game anymore. I cant even slow something, because my mage cant use cone of cold or frostbolt /firefrost, because somehow its not in the spellbook anymore).


    The tuning is a problem, if one class with no multidotting is about 30 % lower in single target dps than a similar class with additional multidotting /cleave dmg. but this is something that blizz does on purpuse, to make people reroll so they constantly are busy.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Exkrementor View Post
    Poor mages are middle of the pack and are still brought to the raid because of stupid utility.

    Maybe play a ret, feral or any shaman spec once so you know how it is when you have to pray to the rng gods every new raidtier that your spec isnt useless.

    Fucking mages are always whining when they are not op. Kinda like warlocks but warlocks were never not op.
    You sound like a bitter ret pally.

    Pure dps classes were generally strong, and should have the potential to do more dps than hybrids.

    Just keep popping your wings killing things with insane burst thinking you're good.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by cockaroo View Post
    Pretty much every class can already do what we can do better. Not sure why there is so much disparity between us and warlocks, even on 2 targets, these other classes can do it better than us. Just not sure why Blizz thinks it's a good idea to have so much damage disparity between classes. I wish they would give frost a boost and rework fire so it is fun and viable again. We need to get more representation on the mage side of things. I had to re-roll this tier to warlock because of the poor damage. I would rather play mage. Hopefully they will do something soon, but it doesn't look likely.
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