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  1. #121
    I don't necesserely think that Mages should be on top by design. I do believe that our utility is inferior to what other ranged pure dps specs provide though, such as Hunters and Warlocks.

    Hunters, expecially, kinda have it all. Feign Death is an aggro reset on a ridiculous cd, they have a total immunity that still allows them to move around, long hard cc via trap, perma 50% slow via Concussive Shot, a pet tanking for them, decent mobility via Disengage, one spec that can do basically its full damage while being completely on the move and only share gear with another class (which is insane, if you ask me).

    Warlocks are also superior with Gate, Healthstones and all their absorptions (which in group play makes healing them much easier).

    Mage is designed around its mobility, that's what is supposed to make them special, and Blink/Shimmer does provide the best mobility any ranged class possesses. It is my opinion however that this has constantly grown less and less effective over the years. The fights are designed to be more dynamic with each new tier, and the constant need to move around makes abilities less potent cause their cd simply does not allow to have them available everytime you need them.
    In a world where every class needs to be so often on the move having abilties that enable you to physically skip having to walk one or two times is not that impactful, while absorptions are there all the time and reduce the healing required, which is useful on every fight and in every occasion.

    I don't think that this should translate into Mages doing flat out more damage, but i do think our class has grown "old" in terms of design and is long due for an overhaul. Warlocks had it (and complained about it veemently), but it seems it enabled them to shine brighter then they ever were able to (save MoP, in which they have been even too strong).
    I would be up for getting the same treatment, cause it's pretty evident something needs to be done to the class at this point, in both tuning and design.
    Last edited by The Archmage; 2019-04-11 at 09:42 AM.

  2. #122
    Hi, former raider from tbc/wrath.. get over it.. specs and classes go in and out of favor, considering the bad job in bfa regarding the classes it isn't what they want.. just the closest they could settle on, level a rogue if you want to always do decent or above average dps.
    Make sure if you still play your voice is heard if it matters to you, Mine wasn't.
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  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayia View Post
    Hi, former raider from tbc/wrath.. get over it.. specs and classes go in and out of favor, considering the bad job in bfa regarding the classes it isn't what they want.. just the closest they could settle on, level a rogue if you want to always do decent or above average dps.
    So, all specs and classes go in and out of favor, except for rogues?
    *Insert every single ridiculous PC parts detail here that no one cares about*

  4. #124
    Bloodsail Admiral Fayenoor's Avatar
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    Our guild has run out of mages. They either quit the game or rerolled. So, we use scrolls.

    I myself rerolled to a rest druid after playing a mage since Molten Core.

    We can recruit locks, SPs, Boomies, Ele Shamans just fine, but no mages among casters. We are 5/9M.

    We used 2 shamans, 2 druids and a mage alt on Conclave for dispels.

    Current state of mages is not tenable. It is not just the numbers (or the lack of it). The specs themselves are so slow and uninspiring compared to the other ranged DPS like Sps, Locks which are so much more fast paced.
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    The main function of Mythic mode for most players is to act as a reminder that, compared to that 1%, they suck.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by La View Post
    So, all specs and classes go in and out of favor, except for rogues?
    pretty much, i mean at least once an expansion mage seems to get to be good lol
    but rogues seem to stay good most expansions i'm sure you could find a couple of raids where they sucked but it doesn't stay that way for too long, they don't really have much else to do other than dps so blizzard must balance using them in a way.
    Make sure if you still play your voice is heard if it matters to you, Mine wasn't.
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    BFA is another failure on Blizzard for leaving out information yet again despite promising communication with players while Azerite armor is an unfun system forced onto us to keep us grinding.

  6. #126
    Those that do M+ heavily and follow the high-end/MDI scene, do you guys feel the 8.1 Frost slow changes were necessary in retrospective, several months later?

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by cockaroo View Post
    Pretty much every class can already do what we can do better. Not sure why there is so much disparity between us and warlocks, even on 2 targets, these other classes can do it better than us. Just not sure why Blizz thinks it's a good idea to have so much damage disparity between classes. I wish they would give frost a boost and rework fire so it is fun and viable again. We need to get more representation on the mage side of things. I had to re-roll this tier to warlock because of the poor damage. I would rather play mage. Hopefully they will do something soon, but it doesn't look likely.
    imagine asking for Classic but then complaining a class is just a buff ATM

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by La View Post
    So, all specs and classes go in and out of favor, except for rogues?
    Rogues are not exempt from this cycle. No clue why you think they are so universally amazing.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by La View Post
    So, all specs and classes go in and out of favor, except for rogues?
    Zul was the only fight rogues toped meters this expansion and got hard nerfed for it with removel of shurikencombo keep dreaming

    source: 9/9M Rogue Dh windwalker main

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by The Archmage View Post
    I don't necesserely think that Mages should be on top by design. I do believe that our utility is inferior to what other ranged pure dps specs provide though, such as Hunters and Warlocks.

    Hunters, expecially, kinda have it all. Feign Death is an aggro reset on a ridiculous cd, they have a total immunity that still allows them to move around, long hard cc via trap, perma 50% slow via Concussive Shot, a pet tanking for them, decent mobility via Disengage, one spec that can do basically its full damage while being completely on the move and only share gear with another class (which is insane, if you ask me).

    Warlocks are also superior with Gate, Healthstones and all their absorptions (which in group play makes healing them much easier).

    Mage is designed around its mobility, that's what is supposed to make them special, and Blink/Shimmer does provide the best mobility any ranged class possesses. It is my opinion however that this has constantly grown less and less effective over the years. The fights are designed to be more dynamic with each new tier, and the constant need to move around makes abilities less potent cause their cd simply does not allow to have them available everytime you need them.
    In a world where every class needs to be so often on the move having abilties that enable you to physically skip having to walk one or two times is not that impactful, while absorptions are there all the time and reduce the healing required, which is useful on every fight and in every occasion.

    I don't think that this should translate into Mages doing flat out more damage, but i do think our class has grown "old" in terms of design and is long due for an overhaul. Warlocks had it (and complained about it veemently), but it seems it enabled them to shine brighter then they ever were able to (save MoP, in which they have been even too strong).
    I would be up for getting the same treatment, cause it's pretty evident something needs to be done to the class at this point, in both tuning and design.
    I was coming to say something along these lines. Nice analysis. Mage is outdated in every way, even open world utilities such as conjuring food, slow fall or teleport have lost meaning due to game design. Such as DH gliding which is light-years superior, goblin glider, which is also better and accessible to all. World transportation is easy with portals to every major location. Eating between pulls in the world is not a thing anymore.

    All Mage specs have no advantage in any situation to compensate for their numerous disadvantages. They are not great on aoe, nor single, nor mobility, nor special raid utility. Arguably Frost on two target cleave is quite good (but not the best) and a specific Fire build is strong at 30% execute. Both are niche and don't make up for the rest of the mediocre performance in every other situation.

    There are zero reasons to play Mage over another class other than liking the Mage theme. Which isn't a bad reason but pragmatically it is a disadvantage to a serious group.

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustaWarlock View Post
    Lol. Typical entitled mage comment, especially considering the utility you bring.

    Mages, warlocks, rogues, hunters all should always be top-class DPS as they're all pure damage dealers. To say mages alone should be king is a joke,
    Hybrid tax has been dead for years, pal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayia View Post
    pretty much, i mean at least once an expansion mage seems to get to be good lol
    but rogues seem to stay good most expansions i'm sure you could find a couple of raids where they sucked but it doesn't stay that way for too long, they don't really have much else to do other than dps so blizzard must balance using them in a way.
    Rogues have been widely used for years due to their great soaking abilities.
    Last edited by Makabreska; 2019-04-16 at 12:41 PM.
    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing...

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    Hybrid tax has been dead for years, pal.



    Rogues have been widely used for years due to their great soaking abilities.
    of course having characters who can negate damaging effects that have to be set off are helpful but other classes can in a way do similar though rogue can do it more often, its still considered as a class with not much else to do, hence why the mdi's have been using the tricks rogues have to somewhat play around with game mechanics, rogues are the last to still have really cool tools most players don't even use them in that way.
    mythic raiders understand having 5-10 rogues who can jump into a fight is how you get realm firsts however, now days previously it wasn't so cutthroat.. in a way.

    Hunters mage and warlocks have had more stuff designed around them as kind of tanks than rogues have so far, its more player thought that elevates rogues to a higher place, where as the other dps are considered by blizzard to be able to do slightly more "things" than rogues can, hence the high numbers everywhere.
    Make sure if you still play your voice is heard if it matters to you, Mine wasn't.
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    BFA is another failure on Blizzard for leaving out information yet again despite promising communication with players while Azerite armor is an unfun system forced onto us to keep us grinding.

  13. #133
    No matter how you look at it... Mage is nto a fun class to play anymore. It was best in Wrath... especially with tier 8 bonuses.
    Ah yes.. I miss tier.

  14. #134
    Bloodsail Admiral Fayenoor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maudib View Post
    No matter how you look at it... Mage is nto a fun class to play anymore. It was best in Wrath... especially with tier 8 bonuses.
    Ah yes.. I miss tier.
    It was very good on Halfus in Cataclysm with the mega Combustion Spread fun and same on Beastlord Darmac in WOD.

    But right now, it is dead.
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    The main function of Mythic mode for most players is to act as a reminder that, compared to that 1%, they suck.

  15. #135
    The problem is the 3 mage specs don't have enough diversity, they all do the same thing and frost does them all the best. There's the odd argument you can make for Fire, or Arcane, on the odd fight, but the majority it is frost. The only exception is Arcane, but it should do far more ST damage than it does, considering that is Arcane's niche, literal stand still, spam into the boss and do not move. Which is ironic because a SP/Aff warlocks niche specialization is multi-target, yet they do more/close to the same as an Arcane mage that specializes in ST.

    I also take issue with minor things, like the fact that all 3 mage specs have no multi-dot/spread cleave, and their AOE in comparison to many other specs is not really the best in any spec. What really bothers me on Frost is the fact that the cleave range is so ridiculously low. Why is it? I have to talent into my cleave and it can't even hit the range of Grong adds? Or the minor distance the boss may be from a Rasta totem?

    Don't get me wrong, overall we may be the worst casters in the game, but we're not super far behind by any means. It's just the fact that, again, all 3 specs just fall short in so many ways that I really hope that they get reworked like Warlocks and other casters did. Arcane has always been mind numbing. Fire hasn't been fun since it was changes ages ago. Frost has been what mages have played patch after patch that it feels like you're playing a slightly more engaging arcane. At least mages can feel special with their utility, aka bringing AI and their slow being useful for literally one fight!
    Last edited by La; 2019-04-19 at 02:59 AM.
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  16. #136
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    I would take a little fix for a frost RNG dependency, making BF procs more reliable. I really love GS build, but sometimes RNG gods hates you so much, they making you cast 24 Frost Bolts to get a proc, delivered by Ebonbolt coming off cooldown. Maybe making it similar to Enhanced Pyrotechnics, each non-BF cast adds 10% extra chance of getting BF.

    For sure, fire spec would need some love too, but at least they can start with the small things. Baby steps.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by La View Post
    The problem is the 3 mage specs don't have enough diversity, they all do the same thing and frost does them all the best. There's the odd argument you can make for Fire, or Arcane, on the odd fight, but the majority it is frost. The only exception is Arcane, but it should do far more ST damage than it does, considering that is Arcane's niche, literal stand still, spam into the boss and do not move. Which is ironic because a SP/Aff warlocks niche specialization is multi-target, yet they do more/close to the same as an Arcane mage that specializes in ST.

    I also take issue with minor things, like the fact that all 3 mage specs have no multi-dot/spread cleave, and their AOE in comparison to many other specs is not really the best in any spec. What really bothers me on Frost is the fact that the cleave range is so ridiculously low. Why is it? I have to talent into my cleave and it can't even hit the range of Grong adds? Or the minor distance the boss may be from a Rasta totem?

    Don't get me wrong, overall we may be the worst casters in the game, but we're not super far behind by any means. It's just the fact that, again, all 3 specs just fall short in so many ways that I really hope that they get reworked like Warlocks and other casters did. Arcane has always been mind numbing. Fire hasn't been fun since it was changes ages ago. Frost has been what mages have played patch after patch that it feels like you're playing a slightly more engaging arcane. At least mages can feel special with their utility, aka bringing AI and their slow being useful for literally one fight!
    I think you're right. It always feels like you're playing the same spec just with different colors.

    Fire could maybe make sense as a multi-dot spec? I know the spec has ignite, but that is not very controllable :P
    Last edited by Kaver; 2019-05-01 at 07:07 AM.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    I think you're right. It always feels like you're playing the same spec just with different colors.

    Fire could maybe make sense as a multi-dot spec? I know the spec has ignite, but that is not very controllable :P
    Fire had that, but it was taken away, because Blizz felt Mages shouldn't multidot. They limited the range of our abilities to certain pool and after a few purges of abilities, we are left with these shells that play somewhat the same and nothing is too enjoyable at the same time.

    Arcane would be the easiest to make wildly different due to it having another dimension in the gameplay, but Blizzard seems to be content to make it a spam a single(or two with AM procs) spell then evocate and conserve with 3 spells(which feels similar to how fire and frost plays) spec every expansion and you never have to really care about mana.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    Fire had that, but it was taken away, because Blizz felt Mages shouldn't multidot. They limited the range of our abilities to certain pool and after a few purges of abilities, we are left with these shells that play somewhat the same and nothing is too enjoyable at the same time.

    Arcane would be the easiest to make wildly different due to it having another dimension in the gameplay, but Blizzard seems to be content to make it a spam a single(or two with AM procs) spell then evocate and conserve with 3 spells(which feels similar to how fire and frost plays) spec every expansion and you never have to really care about mana.
    For FIRE:
    They should rework fire mage to be similar to how shadow priest played during WoD.
    - Change living bomb to be a 16 second dot, remove the target limit, spreading and explosion.
    - Have every crit from living bomb give a stack and at 5 crits trigger Hot Streak.

    For FROST:
    - They should increase the range on splitting ice and increase ice lance damage.
    - Add talent that is a spell with 2 stacks and x sec cooldown that will trigger brainfreeze immediately (off the gcd) - could replace frozen touch for example

    For ARCANE:
    - Slipstream is baseline, new talent is the old legendary 'Belo'vir's Final Stand'
    - Make one of the talent rows be the old legion legendaries to add some mana management options: 'Rhonin's Assaulting Armwraps' - 'Mystic Kilt of the Rune Master' - 'Gravity Spiral'
    - Add a spell that places a debuff on the target that increases the damage it takes from the casting mage by 20%. 2 second cast, unlimited duration, decent mana cost.

    This way all three specs can have an identity and excel in an area.

  20. #140
    I've never been this bored before playing my mage it is so fucking bad right now I don't know how they managed to get it this wrong. It's like this is all intentionally done so people can forget retail and go to classic.

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