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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Orbitus View Post
    Well, considering they aren't looking, it is kinda hard to find something they aren't looking for. When was the last time you heard anything about them actually calling people in front of them?
    Again, that is exactly what I meant, you are trying to deny the result of the investigation that does not agree with you and blow the results of the ones you that agree with you.

    The truth is probably somewhere between.

    Don't get me wrong, I would not be surprised at all if Russia is supporting Trump and Brexit via propaganda, both events benefit them and the west has been doing the same for centuries. But thinking that this makes movement they support their puppets or bad per se, that is, for me, a huge stretch.

    And, at least for me, the same rational applies to Soros.
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  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Knolan View Post
    Again, that is exactly what I meant, you are trying to deny the result of the investigation that does not agree with you and blow the results of the ones you that agree with you.

    The truth is probably somewhere between.

    Don't get me wrong, I would not be surprised at all if Russia is supporting Trump and Brexit via propaganda, both events benefit them and the west has been doing the same for centuries. But thinking that this makes movement they support their puppets or bad per se, that is, for me, a huge stretch.

    And, at least for me, the same rational applies to Soros.
    Except, what was released yesterday. Cohen was in the room when both Jr let Trump know that the Trump Tower meeting was happening, and when Roger Stone called after talking to Assange that there were going to be new emails released. He knew full well that these things were happening. Both the House and Senate Intelligence committees have literally been doing NOTHING since Nunes called it, and the Senate one just stopped what? Last week? But only because they didn't want to get in Mueller's way?

    Yet, Trump has tried to deny that he knew anything about them. Mueller has that evidence now. That is why I asked if you were in on the Mueller investigation because that is the one that matters.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Russian stuff is also overblown conspiracy type stuff.

    Like what spawned this thread:
    The claims are based on research for a forthcoming book, The Black Book of the League, by two of the magazine’s journalists.
    The authors admit they have no evidence that the deal was ever executed, but claim it was being negotiated at a meeting at a Moscow hotel in October 2018.


    Something never happened, yet Russians are everywhere, funding every opposition party!

    ...isn't that what Soros is also accused of, funding opposition?
    We don't know whether Putin fanatic and anti-EU firebrand Salvini is telling the truth or not but far right politicians and activists usually expose the same behavioral patterns when it comes to truth and transparency: they hate both. Italy's government is in a standoff with the EU about its budget deficits and its lag on structural reforms especially now that it's in a state of severe recession. It could be that Italy is seeking to secure funding and investments from elsewhere just like Greece did in the early of the financial crisis - it's not forbidden though but it should set off alarms because there comes a time when debts are to be repaid with political capital. We know Putin never acts in the open and on short term. But Salvini is kind of like Trump was in the case of the US. They both share similar profiles: being extreme narcissistic and being politically incoherent i.e. being more of a troublemaker, stinker and less a visionary rooted in pragmatism. The ideal candidate to be a silent agent for Russia. It's even easier to do that in the EU than in the USA where meddling is unconstitutional from the get-go. It should be within the EUs very interest to ward off against Putins influence, even preemptively.
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  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Orbitus View Post
    Except, what was released yesterday. Cohen was in the room when both Jr let Trump know that the Trump Tower meeting was happening, and when Roger Stone called after talking to Assange that there were going to be new emails released. He knew full well that these things were happening. Both the House and Senate Intelligence committees have literally been doing NOTHING since Nunes called it, and the Senate one just stopped what? Last week? But only because they didn't want to get in Mueller's way?

    Yet, Trump has tried to deny that he knew anything about them. Mueller has that evidence now. That is why I asked if you were in on the Mueller investigation because that is the one that matters.
    Excuse my skepticism, but not even CNN is reporting this as something big and reliable, hence I will reserve my judgement for the developments on that before taking it serious.
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  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Ooid View Post
    And what exactly is “breaking eggs”?
    Seizing assets. Making the oligarchs feel the pain. Seize them in person if they are in Europe, restrict visas, cut diplomatic ties, send Russian citizens home, disrupt their internet service. Like, actually attack their internet infrastructure. In force. Throw them back to the 90s as far as internet is concerned. Stop treating Putin with more respect than he deserves. Whoever thought having the fucking football world championship in neo-Soviet Union should be removed from office as well.

    Make sure Russia understands what it means to be the world's pariah. If they can't respect other sovereign nations, treat them accordingly. And keep piling on sanctions. Until even the densest Putinista understands the only language they ever understand... we can keep twisting until bones break. Deal with it or go home to mama and cry some more. I'm done being nice about this.
    Last edited by Slant; 2019-02-27 at 11:14 AM.
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  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenblade View Post
    We don't know whether Putin fanatic and anti-EU firebrand Salvini is telling the truth or not but far right politicians and activists usually expose the same behavioral patterns when it comes to truth and transparency: they hate both. Italy's government is in a standoff with the EU about its budget deficits and its lag on structural reforms especially now that it's in a state of severe recession. It could be that Italy is seeking to secure funding and investments from elsewhere just like Greece did in the early of the financial crisis - it's not forbidden though but it should set off alarms because there comes a time when debts are to be repaid with political capital. We know Putin never acts in the open and on short term. But Salvini is kind of like Trump was in the case of the US. They both share similar profiles: being extreme narcissistic and being politically incoherent i.e. being more of a troublemaker, stinker and less a visionary rooted in pragmatism. The ideal candidate to be a silent agent for Russia. It's even easier to do that in the EU than in the USA where meddling is unconstitutional from the get-go. It should be within the EUs very interest to ward off against Putins influence, even preemptively.
    We know that Greek outside deals didn't happen because Germany actively scared away/enticed with alternatives those who could provide them, China and Russia. In quite non-transparent manner.

    Obviously ideal candidate for Germans is the one that never challenges them on anything and agrees that current way of things being done is mostly fine.

    They don't seem to get lots of votes though. People definitely feel things aren't fine at the moment.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    I don't know what you're referring to as Russian support. What I wrote was:

    The sarcasm is intended to imply that this is exactly what every country would be expected to do in just about any theory of how international power politics works. It would be surprising to find a rich, powerful country that isn't funding opposition parties and promoting propaganda glorifying themselves. As Russia still has some of the largest, most effective spy and propaganda apparatuses, this is what I would assume they're currently doing, have been doing, and will continue to do.

    The title of the thread, complete with an a big red exclamation point, has all of the intrigue of "Dog Bites Man" style stories:

    This headline is on par with "United States funds anti-communists in Venezuela" for my level of shock.

    - - - Updated - - -


    Sure. When it comes to spying and propaganda, I don't even feel any particular need to regain moral high ground. I assume that we'll spend vast resources and use every tentacle of state power possible to play the same grand game. I broadly agree with @Skroe regarding appropriate responses that should be taken - there's a lot of room to exercise much more leverage than the United States and Europe presently have. Financially strangling Russia's oligarchy is an entirely appropriate response. Making it nearly impossible for them to comfortably travel abroad is appropriate. Cyber warfare within some limited scope is an option.

    My only point to open the thread is that it's tiresome reading something that everyone should have already known presented as though it's a big reveal.
    So essentially indifference, but people don't know about this as these nationalists do gain traction on money from Russia with the clear goal to dismantle institutes from within so Russia can increase their activities. As American you might find this news dull and boring, i don't and i find more should be written about it not less people need to remember what pigs like Putin and his followers are homesick for and that is a larger number of nations under his command and more nations he can plunder for not Russia's gain but personal gain.

    Sure america funded governments even in the west but if you know your history for a long time america did so reactionary to russia.

    I personally would go even further and state that any party that has been found guilty of obtaining final support through benefactors that are detrimental to our values of society should be be barred from operating.

    And with the EU elections people should be talking more about this not less as even this fascists italian mp's are using the "soros" argument, hell they are crying about the EU while their own PM is calling for the removal of the french PM.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    So essentially indifference, but people don't know about this as these nationalists do gain traction on money from Russia with the clear goal to dismantle institutes from within so Russia can increase their activities. As American you might find this news dull and boring, i don't and i find more should be written about it not less people need to remember what pigs like Putin and his followers are homesick for and that is a larger number of nations under his command and more nations he can plunder for not Russia's gain but personal gain.

    Sure america funded governments even in the west but if you know your history for a long time america did so reactionary to russia.

    I personally would go even further and state that any party that has been found guilty of obtaining final support through benefactors that are detrimental to our values of society should be be barred from operating.

    And with the EU elections people should be talking more about this not less as even this fascists italian mp's are using the "soros" argument, hell they are crying about the EU while their own PM is calling for the removal of the french PM.
    Do you include Hillary and Qatar donations on your ban?

    IMO, you should not forbid any party to run, let people decide from themselves if the ideas they muster are bad or not.

    Nationalist parties are on the rise on Europe for a reason and the ONLY acceptable way you are going to deal with it is hearing people who are voting on them and either convince them that they are wrong or trying to meet them in a middle point where both are comfortable.
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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    We know that Greek outside deals didn't happen because Germany actively scared away/enticed with alternatives those who could provide them, China and Russia. In quite non-transparent manner.

    Obviously ideal candidate for Germans is the one that never challenges them on anything and agrees that current way of things being done is mostly fine.

    They don't seem to get lots of votes though. People definitely feel things aren't fine at the moment.
    Greece did turn to China though hence why there are good ol' communist style cadre barracks at Piraeus port now. Everything that was done was to avert a situation where Greece has liabilities to powers whose end of the bargains would need mean some political stake in the EU. The EU is even more wary now with Italy potentially attempting the same. We know Russia is, like the US (and by that extent Russia again), trying to play a little game of divide et impera now like if Russia is confident enough that a destabilized Europe run by far right nationalists is something they could cope with. At least it exposes the true motives of far right populists here. I heard Dugin needs a bigger bench these days.
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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knolan View Post
    Do you include Hillary and Qatar donations on your ban?

    IMO, you should not forbid any party to run, let people decide from themselves if the ideas they muster are bad or not.

    Nationalist parties are on the rise on Europe for a reason and the ONLY acceptable way you are going to deal with it is hearing people who are voting on them and either convince them that they are wrong or trying to meet them in a middle point where both are comfortable.
    I'm not american so i couldn't care less about your hardon for previous political figureheads that are no longer relevant and still need to be used in a scapegoat manner to have some sort of flimsy argument to defend the other side. I don't even know why you americans try to bother with such nonsense, you are aware we have dozens of political parties and aren't stuck in time with some camp A or camp B situation, where if you don't support A you must be for B! And that's all i'm going to say on that.

    The last time we let that type of nationalism run wild a world war happened, nationalist parties as i belong to one you numpty that are funded with money from the region they are from are fine with me. Nationalist parties that are funded by third parties and are thriving on misinformation shouldn't be allowed to operate so freely as they don't play by the rules either.

    I even said in this very own thread that there are sensible alternatives for these parties.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenblade View Post
    Greece did turn to China though hence why there are good ol' communist style cadre barracks at Piraeus port now. Everything that was done was to avert a situation where Greece has liabilities to powers whose end of the bargains would need mean some political stake in the EU. The EU is even more wary now with Italy potentially attempting the same. We know Russia is, like the US (and by that extent Russia again), trying to play a little game of divide et impera now like if Russia is confident enough that a destabilized Europe run by far right nationalists is something they could cope with. At least it exposes the true motives of far right populists here. I heard Dugin needs a bigger bench these days.
    You're trying to keep your empire together by any means. I guess Germany personally benefits too much from current arrangement. Any significant reconfiguration will probably have Germany worse off even if EU will still stand.

    Outside money just potentially gives those populists voice; but it's the message that gets them votes, not outside money.

    Maybe you should work on better message instead rather then "everything is perfectly fine, everyone who thinks things aren't fine and wants to try alternatives is mad or agent of hostile powers"? Maybe you should allow politicians to make mistakes and for people to learn from them? Maybe your EU should get more resistant to them through mitigation rather then prevention.

    And... how do you really know Russian plan? Why do you even think they have one, rather then pursuing opportunities as they come? And not even necessarily in any unified way/plan at that - many, if not most of Russian oligarchs are naturally right-wing and can offer spare change to like-minded parties anywhere.

    It's not like Putin drops billions on someone's lap on demand. Germany can and does entice Russia away from many opportunities already by offering their own.
    Last edited by Shalcker; 2019-02-27 at 01:41 PM.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    I'm not american so i couldn't care less about your hardon for previous political figureheads that are no longer relevant and still need to be used in a scapegoat manner to have some sort of flimsy argument to defend the other side. I don't even know why you americans try to bother with such nonsense, you are aware we have dozens of political parties and aren't stuck in time with some camp A or camp B situation, where if you don't support A you must be for B! And that's all i'm going to say on that.

    The last time we let that type of nationalism run wild a world war happened, nationalist parties as i belong to one you numpty that are funded with money from the region they are from are fine with me. Nationalist parties that are funded by third parties and are thriving on misinformation shouldn't be allowed to operate so freely as they don't play by the rules either.

    I even said in this very own thread that there are sensible alternatives for these parties.
    I am not an American either, I was just trying to point that this kind of extreme rule would probably punish people you support too.

    Nationalist parties today are not the same as 80 years ago (in the same way that socialist parties today are not the same).

    Even if they were, it is up for people voting to choose what they want, not for governments to forbid them from choosing. I firmly believe that we left our genocidal ways behind us and I would rather people being 100% free to make bad choices than having someone dictating which choices they are allowed to do.
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  13. #73
    The Insane Acidbaron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knolan View Post
    I am not an American either, I was just trying to point that this kind of extreme rule would probably punish people you support too.

    Nationalist parties today are not the same as 80 years ago (in the same way that socialist parties today are not the same).

    Even if they were, it is up for people voting to choose what they want, not for governments to forbid them from choosing. I firmly believe that we left our genocidal ways behind us and I would rather people being 100% free to make bad choices than having someone dictating which choices they are allowed to do.
    I wouldn't throw too many assumptions around regarding who or what i support, especially not when trying to make a paper thin argument.

    I find your observations to be rather naive, this is probably because you don't have a lot of dealings with these kind of people. And no i will never join in your hand waving mindset of political parties that endorse hate and violence towards others and not just because i don't endorse political inspired violence or hatred but because these political parties are creating smoke screens, their solution to any problem is simply deal with all the immigrants and put them in a lower tier category compared to others and things will be fine. And they use this for climate change, for social economic issues, such as disposable income and work opportunities.

    And sure behind every racist and behind every voter of a far right party is a story of human suffering and tragedy, but these parties don't offer solutions, they don't say how they are going to help "their own" better, all they do is offer targets which they can direct those struggling can focus their anger and frustration towards.

    And now instead of getting angry of hand waving what i just said, take up the party program from your far right party in your own country and read it, and when you do come back here and say it is not the same from 80 years ago. Because i read mine and it's all about mass deportation, apartheid laws, night curfews, restriction of personal liberties of other thinkers, increasing rights of the police, decreasing rights of the accused.

    Because i think you have only just started peeping into what the far right actually endorses and promotes, i have been sitting on the right since my 18th and even before so no when a guy like you comes up and tells me they are very different from compared to way back when you simply have not been looking close enough. What makes sense that's why you bring up things like Hillary and Soros. Which are very much irrelevant but they represent the other category the far right likes to target in their diversion tactics, the globalists (what is such a broad term that using it as an insult is simply going full out retard)

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    I'm not american so i couldn't care less about your hardon for previous political figureheads that are no longer relevant and still need to be used in a scapegoat manner to have some sort of flimsy argument to defend the other side. I don't even know why you americans try to bother with such nonsense, you are aware we have dozens of political parties and aren't stuck in time with some camp A or camp B situation, where if you don't support A you must be for B! And that's all i'm going to say on that.

    The last time we let that type of nationalism run wild a world war happened, nationalist parties as i belong to one you numpty that are funded with money from the region they are from are fine with me. Nationalist parties that are funded by third parties and are thriving on misinformation shouldn't be allowed to operate so freely as they don't play by the rules either.

    I even said in this very own thread that there are sensible alternatives for these parties.
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  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    I wouldn't throw too many assumptions around regarding who or what i support, especially not when trying to make a paper thin argument.

    I find your observations to be rather naive, this is probably because you don't have a lot of dealings with these kind of people. And no i will never join in your hand waving mindset of political parties that endorse hate and violence towards others and not just because i don't endorse political inspired violence or hatred but because these political parties are creating smoke screens, their solution to any problem is simply deal with all the immigrants and put them in a lower tier category compared to others and things will be fine. And they use this for climate change, for social economic issues, such as disposable income and work opportunities.

    And sure behind every racist and behind every voter of a far right party is a story of human suffering and tragedy, but these parties don't offer solutions, they don't say how they are going to help "their own" better, all they do is offer targets which they can direct those struggling can focus their anger and frustration towards.

    And now instead of getting angry of hand waving what i just said, take up the party program from your far right party in your own country and read it, and when you do come back here and say it is not the same from 80 years ago. Because i read mine and it's all about mass deportation, apartheid laws, night curfews, restriction of personal liberties of other thinkers, increasing rights of the police, decreasing rights of the accused.

    Because i think you have only just started peeping into what the far right actually endorses and promotes, i have been sitting on the right since my 18th and even before so no when a guy like you comes up and tells me they are very different from compared to way back when you simply have not been looking close enough. What makes sense that's why you bring up things like Hillary and Soros. Which are very much irrelevant but they represent the other category the far right likes to target in their diversion tactics, the globalists (what is such a broad term that using it as an insult is simply going full out retard)
    Ok, that is a lot to unroll, so I will try my best to organize it as well as I can:

    Ok, that is fair, I assumed you supported Hillary because you apparently positioned yourself on the left. What I meant is: will you be OK when those rules you want be applied to you/people you support?

    My observations are not naive, they are based on principle. You either apply political restrictions to all parties or to no parties and I firmly believe that no restrictions is the best policy. Removing a party from a run does not remove the reason people are supporting them in the first place and that is what needs to be addressed.

    I agree that in general, radical right wing parties won't offer solutions to the people supporting them, but left wing parties do not either, plus they deny those people problem even exist and call them racists. I don't blame them on their choices, I blame establish parties for their dismissal.

    I have done that for my country (Brazil, which I don't live in anymore, but I still must vote there) and couldn't really find an terrible things on their programs, can't talk about Belgium thought. Although I have not voted for them, I don't think they are nearly as bad as the left wing people try to portrait them and since they won, I guess we will see in the next years. I also don't think that many parties named far right wing in the media are actually far right wing, they are only right wing (or even centrist in some cases).

    I brought Soros up because he is to many non progressive people the classic movie villan who has his tentacles everywhere and is manipulating people to vote against their best interests. That is, for me, a very good analogy on how the progressives see Russian influences. As I said, I don't doubt either is financing propaganda to benefit their ends, but I don't believe that their impact is as big or their intentions are ville.
    Last edited by Knolan; 2019-02-27 at 03:02 PM.
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  16. #76
    The Insane Acidbaron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knolan View Post
    Ok, that is a lot to unroll, so I will try my best to organize it as well as I can:

    Ok, that is fair, I assumed you supported Hillary because you apparently positioned yourself on the left. What I meant is: will you be OK when those rules you want be applied to you/people you support?

    My observations are not naive, they are based on principle. You either apply political restrictions to all parties or to no parties and I firmly believe that no restrictions is the best policy. Removing a party from a run does not remove the reason people are supporting them in the first place and that is what needs to be addressed.

    I agree that in general, radical right wing parties won't offer solutions to the people supporting them, but left wing parties do not either, plus they deny those people problem even exist and call them racists. I don't blame them on their choices, I blame establish parties for their dismissal.

    I have done that for my country (Brazil, which I don't live in anymore, but I still must vote there) and couldn't really find an terrible things on their programs, can't talk about Belgium thought. Although I have not voted for them, I don't think they are nearly as bad as the left wing people try to portrait them and since they won, I guess we will see in the next years. I also don't think that many parties named far right wing in the media are actually far right wing, they are only right wing (or even centrist in some cases).

    I brought Soros up because he is to many non progressive people the classic movie villan who has his tentacles everywhere and is manipulating people to vote against their best interests. That is, for me, a very good analogy on how the progressives see Russian influences. As I said, I don't doubt either is financing propaganda to benefit their ends, but I don't believe that their impact is as big or their intentions are ville.
    I sit on the right spectrum for the largest part and am a card carrying member of a party that identifies itself as flemish nationalists. There is very little what i consider to be actually left in the united states, neither Hillary or Obama were left, you really don't have socialism in the united states and even plans that would benefit the vast majority requires quite a lot of effort to go through.

    The left and right division in Europe is also vastly different, were there are more centrists and more political parties that differ from left or right ideology depending on issue. For example to use Merkel, she's part of the CDU what are christian democrats (centrum right), if you had to look at simply part of her immigration proposal you would look at her as left, if you look at her economically you would say right, if you look at human rights, for example gay rights, you would call her right.

    As for who's worse, i don't really know and honestly i don't tend to make that equation all i care for is people on the far right give people on the left easy ammunition to retort back, that's not to say that i agree with your assessment that they ignore issues that are there, they look at it differently. But i tend to look more within my own ranks when it comes to what we are doing and saying and yes, being called a racist in a debate is not uncommon but those arguments are easily put aside if you let them elaborate further.

    The parties named by Skroe are actually far right, there are centrist right ones but Front Nationale is hardly located in the centrum to name one. They gain more traction now also due to formerly mostly christian democratic parties have failed and have generally been in power for a long long time.

    I find Russia far more problematic than Soros mostly because a lot of the talk surrounding Soros is hearsay, recently on BBC world news an Italian MP was confronted about Soros and if he had any proof and essentially it boiled down to "well he had meetings with people!". Soros isn't even on my radar. Putin is as i still have grand parents and people i talk to that are alive from the Sovjet era. So when reports come out that Russia specifically targets civilians in hope to increase the refugee stream towards europe to create a further political divide they can benefit from i personally believe that, since that's simply textbook sovjets.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    You're trying to keep your empire together by any means. I guess Germany personally benefits too much from current arrangement. Any significant reconfiguration will probably have Germany worse off even if EU will still stand.
    If the UKs drop pre-Brexit in economic performance is any indication already then anyone believing being "better off without the EU" is a pipedream and an effective "worse off", not just for Germany. Anyhow, it's nice to see a candid talk about a complete break-up already.

    Outside money just potentially gives those populists voice; but it's the message that gets them votes, not outside money.
    Money that can be spent on campaigns and buses that carry ambiguous messages, you mean? Money is the lubricant for every election campaign and the glue for every message. How far this can escalate can be seen how often parties get caught in election funding scandals and how quick the accused are with denying any involvement.

    Maybe you should work on better message instead rather then "everything is perfectly fine, everyone who thinks things aren't fine and wants to try alternatives is mad or agent of hostile powers"? Maybe you should allow politicians to make mistakes and for people to learn from them? Maybe your EU should get more resistant to them through mitigation rather then prevention.
    I am not the one saying everything is perfectly fine. But the solution doesn't come from the fringes of the political spectrum especially when they are quick to point fingers and single out groups they define as "the guilty ones" but if they were to put solutions and constructive ideas on a paper they would only need a sticky note and it would leave enough space for a 3 year old to draw something with wax crayons. The EU is still made up of countries, each of which having their own laws actually prohibiting non-EU funding of election campaigns.

    And... how do you really know Russian plan? Why do you even think they have one, rather then pursuing opportunities as they come? And not even necessarily in any unified way/plan at that - many, if not most of Russian oligarchs are naturally right-wing and can offer spare change to like-minded parties anywhere.
    It doesn't take many leaps and bounces to make an educate guess. You, by yourselves, have mentioned it in the first paragraph and there is really not much to add to it except that it's perfectly reasonable - in a Machiavellian sense - to help achieving it, it doesn't even matter whether Putin himself or one of his friends are in it.

    It's not like Putin drops billions on someone's lap on demand. Germany can and does entice Russia away from many opportunities already by offering their own.
    I am not saying that anything has happened yet or ever will, it could be that the Chinese will be faster again. Even if it's just a conspiraceeeh!, it's at least a sign of vigilance and awareness about the matter. I also doubt that Italy as a whole can simply last long on the narrative of the "EU and Mediterranean invaders" that are supposedly keep them economically down. There's only one name you'd need to drop to set the records straight: Silvio Berlusconi.
    Last edited by Ravenblade; 2019-02-27 at 11:45 PM.
    WoW: Crowcloak (Druid) & Neesheya (Paladin) @ Sylvanas EU (/ˈkaZHo͞oəl/) | GW2: Siqqa (Asura Engineer) @ Piken Square EU
    If builders built houses the way programmers built programs,the first woodpecker to come along would destroy civilization. - Weinberg's 2nd law

    He seeks them here, he seeks them there, he seeks those lupins everywhere!


  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenblade View Post
    If the UKs drop pre-Brexit in economic performance is any indication already then anyone believing being "better off without the EU" is a pipedream and an effective "worse off", not just for Germany. Anyhow, it's nice to see a candid talk about a complete break-up already.
    Countries certainly can survive outside of EU. And it isn't obvious that would not be net positive; not from GDP metric but from societal level. Like, for example, seeing how truly clueless current politicians are and working on getting better ones.

    GDP isn't everything, and some service sectors get overly inflated contribution there, skewing government incentives if GDP is the primary (or even sole) performance metric. ...and possibly skewing EU incentives too, i guess.

    Money that can be spent on campaigns and buses that carry ambiguous messages, you mean? Money is the lubricant for every election campaign and the glue for every message. How far this can escalate can be seen how often parties get caught in election funding scandals and how quick the accused are with denying any involvement.
    Everyone can rent and paint a bus. It is usually not even particularly costly. Bus with good message can mean media coverage though, amplifying it way beyond it's bus-impact (like that infamous NHS Brexit bus).

    There are plenty of accusations of Russian money around, and distinct lack of evidence.

    Do Russians offer funding? Yes, that does seem to happen often enough - not to everyone, but if you look hard and go through certain circles it's possible.

    Are there actually any takers? That seems to happen a lot less often. The only proven one i remember is Front National in France, and that only happened because no French bank would give them a loan despite all guarantees - even, supposedly, greater guarantees then that gotten loans to other French presidential candidates. So they gotten it from "First Russian Czech Bank" and have been diligently paying it ever since.

    It looks like Russian money only gets there if you suppress those parties too hard. Maybe you shouldn't? Because yes, once money is accepted, perceptions get skewed. (and that happens with EU/US funding of opposition in Russia as well, even if their declared mission is promotion of democracy and good governance only)

    I am not the one saying everything is perfectly fine. But the solution doesn't come from the fringes of the political spectrum especially when they are quick to point fingers and single out groups they define as "the guilty ones" but if they were to put solutions and constructive ideas on a paper they would only need a sticky note and it would leave enough space for a 3 year old to draw something with wax crayons. The EU is still made up of countries, each of which having their own laws actually prohibiting non-EU funding of election campaigns.
    Apparently France is a lot more relaxed with loans rather then direct contributions.

    Yaroufakis had solid plan based on sound economic reasoning. It wasn't rejected on it's merits. There was no discussion that refuted his points.

    Plenty of solutions that are deemed unacceptable (like total debt forgiveness to Greece, or delaying all payments until situation improved) not because that wouldn't work (it would and immediately make things better for Greece), but because it would make reaching other goals (like reforming Greek governance, or, alternatively, privatizing and buying out their industries that they could otherwise use to get out of debt trap) impossible.

    And people often are against those other goals primarily; yes, they want problems solved. But they want costs and approaches to be negotiable to the ones they can find acceptable too, not just imposed upon them without any recourse.

    Once they aren't given that they can turn to anyone, including Russians.

    It doesn't take many leaps and bounces to make an educate guess. You, by yourselves, have mentioned it in the first paragraph and there is really not much to add to it except that it's perfectly reasonable - in a Machiavellian sense - to help achieving it, it doesn't even matter whether Putin himself or one of his friends are in it.
    It doesn't have to be Machiavellian though. Incentives and reasoning for that can be quite direct for those with different mindset where EU is seen only as one of many different options - and not necessarily the best one.

    I am not saying that anything has happened yet or ever will, it could be that the Chinese will be faster again. Even if it's just a conspiraceeeh!, it's at least a sign of vigilance and awareness about the matter. I also doubt that Italy as a whole can simply last long on the narrative of the "EU and Mediterranean invaders" that are supposedly keep them economically down. There's only one name you'd need to drop to set the records straight: Silvio Berlusconi.
    They got to find their own solution, and that means trying different things. Once currently-stated reasons are eliminated, real reasons should get more obvious.

  19. #79
    I am Murloc! Ravenblade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Countries certainly can survive outside of EU. And it isn't obvious that would not be net positive; not from GDP metric but from societal level. Like, for example, seeing how truly clueless current politicians are and working on getting better ones.

    GDP isn't everything, and some service sectors get overly inflated contribution there, skewing government incentives if GDP is the primary (or even sole) performance metric. ...and possibly skewing EU incentives too, i guess.
    This isn't about survival of a country, a country isn't just going to fail without the EU. It's about being worse or better off in comparison to before being in the EU. The UK was one of the biggest economies in the EU and they did their homework, and are already worse off before they even have left. More companies are leaving the UK. What chance is there that Italy would be better off without the EU than the UK?
    Also I think you have completely misunderstood the GDP as a whole and Italy's structural issues are not because of some flawed market value indicator. Even if it were flawed it wouldn't magically improve their situation. Not liking a colur doesn't mean it's going to vanish from my visual spectrum.

    Everyone can rent and paint a bus. It is usually not even particularly costly. Bus with good message can mean media coverage though, amplifying it way beyond it's bus-impact (like that infamous NHS Brexit bus).
    No, not everyone could rent a bus and campaign with it for months and years, unless they are rich or owner of said bus. If someone can do it and some small party knows the facts what chances do they have to rent multiple buses with the debunking comments plastered on them? None whatsoever. What chances are there that someone with enough money in the pockets could out-scream the people with the facts? Pretty much higher especially with online media fake accounts and bought leads. No, "not everyone" can do everything one can do with much more money during an election campaign.

    Are there actually any takers? That seems to happen a lot less often. The only proven one i remember is Front National in France, and that only happened because no French bank would give them a loan despite all guarantees - even, supposedly, greater guarantees then that gotten loans to other French presidential candidates. So they gotten it from "First Russian Czech Bank" and have been diligently paying it ever since.
    A loan isn't the same as a donation.

    Yaroufakis had solid plan based on sound economic reasoning. It wasn't rejected on it's merits. There was no discussion that refuted his points.

    Plenty of solutions that are deemed unacceptable (like total debt forgiveness to Greece, or delaying all payments until situation improved) not because that wouldn't work (it would and immediately make things better for Greece), but because it would make reaching other goals (like reforming Greek governance, or, alternatively, privatizing and buying out their industries that they could otherwise use to get out of debt trap) impossible.

    And people often are against those other goals primarily; yes, they want problems solved. But they want costs and approaches to be negotiable to the ones they can find acceptable too, not just imposed upon them without any recourse.

    Once they aren't given that they can turn to anyone, including Russians.
    I wasn't talking about missed opportunities due to not following Varoufakis' grand designs, I was talking about populists and how Russia seems to be gung-ho with supporting far right nationalists and populists as if they are the cure. They are certainly the panacea for unity.

    It doesn't have to be Machiavellian though. Incentives and reasoning for that can be quite direct for those with different mindset where EU is seen only as one of many different options - and not necessarily the best one.
    That would be fine if it only applied to countries not being part of the EU at all. It isn't fine for EU members. Those who joined knew their rights and duties. They aren't in the EU because they were forced to, they are in because they deemed it to be the best option. So far, from what I've heard ever from people against the very idea, it is usually a mix of conspiracy theories, a false understanding of its institutions and overblown expectations. It's the same people who would complain about it if their own state does these things, and often they even do. The UK happily adopted EU regulations in which the UK had their say too, saved them countless of parliamentary debates, now they have to make up thousands of their own and wouldn't have a chance to be finished with it in months of time, let alone within one month left.

    They got to find their own solution, and that means trying different things. Once currently-stated reasons are eliminated, real reasons should get more obvious.
    The reasons are already known, for decades actually, and no, the solution isn't quitting the EU - they are not primarily at fault. Maybe they will decide to leave the Euro, maybe the EU will even compromise in favor of Italy. It's all a matter of tone and approach. Ireland led by example and they are still within the EU.

    Yes, after Ukraine crisis Russia certainly would like to achieve a complete breakup of the EU, for geopolitical reasons, that's the only reason. There is no tip-toeing around that. It's also known that Russia is going for the long-haul and there is awareness about that within the EU including Italy. It's not about wanting the best, or best option, it's about control and influence and whether to stem any attempt of getting a foot in the door as early as possible.
    Last edited by Ravenblade; 2019-02-28 at 01:02 PM.
    WoW: Crowcloak (Druid) & Neesheya (Paladin) @ Sylvanas EU (/ˈkaZHo͞oəl/) | GW2: Siqqa (Asura Engineer) @ Piken Square EU
    If builders built houses the way programmers built programs,the first woodpecker to come along would destroy civilization. - Weinberg's 2nd law

    He seeks them here, he seeks them there, he seeks those lupins everywhere!


  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrt View Post
    What's with nationalists and loving support from Russia?
    Well they can hardly afford to be picky with their friends can they?

    Kind of like Putin...
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

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