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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Sotsu View Post
    (and I only have an offensive racial in the last part of BoD, so I macroed it into Toxic Blade):
    Yeah, offensive racials can be really toxic.
    A witty saying proves nothing.
    -Voltaire
    not quite Batman
    winning
    "A stick is a love letter that hasn't been made into paper yet."
    plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Sotsu View Post
    This is the MA opener I've been using, always pre-potting (and I only have an offensive racial in the last part of BoD, so I macroed it into Toxic Blade):
    1. Garrote
    2. Mutilate
    3. Rupture
    4. Mutilate (to try to clip that last second of MA)
    5. Vendetta
    6. Vanish
    7. Toxic Blade
    8. Envenom
    9. Mutilate
    10. Envenom



    I can't say this is the absolute best opener, but it works out pretty well. If there are any glaring oversights, please let me know.
    As discussed earlier in the thread:

    You're placing Toxic Blade within the 3second MA window.

    The idea for MA is to fit as many envenoms into that 3second window as possible. (because envenom is the hardest hitting ability)

    That being said, it makes more sense to do Mutilate(3+cp)-Vendetta-TB-vanish-envenom-mutilate-envenom.
    Instead of the listed mutilate-vendetta-vanish-TB-envenom-mutilate.

    Your opener executes just fine, but it's not the best use of MA. The MA opener has been around for something like 2 years now, and it's always been about squeezing in as many envenoms as possible. There has never been a listed MA opener where using TB in the MA window has been the correct usage. (at least until recently, and everyone who knows anything about it is bewildered)

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by elfporn View Post
    As discussed earlier in the thread:

    You're placing Toxic Blade within the 3second MA window.

    The idea for MA is to fit as many envenoms into that 3second window as possible. (because envenom is the hardest hitting ability)

    That being said, it makes more sense to do Mutilate(3+cp)-Vendetta-TB-vanish-envenom-mutilate-envenom.
    Instead of the listed mutilate-vendetta-vanish-TB-envenom-mutilate.

    Your opener executes just fine, but it's not the best use of MA. The MA opener has been around for something like 2 years now, and it's always been about squeezing in as many envenoms as possible. There has never been a listed MA opener where using TB in the MA window has been the correct usage. (at least until recently, and everyone who knows anything about it is bewildered)
    I understand that you need to put as many envenoms as possible in the MA window, but look at it this way, the MA window is 4 abilities, the one done from stealth, then one every second MA is up.
    Vanish
    Envenom (1)
    Mutilate (2)
    Envenom (3)
    Mutilate (4)

    vs
    Vanish
    Toxic Blade (1)
    Envenom (2)
    Mutilate (3)
    Envenom (4)

    The only trade is you get a Toxic Blade over a Mutilate. Even if both hands from Mutilate crit, it is still less damage than a Toxic Blade crit, and you still get the same number of Envenoms in the MA window. You just have to make sure to vanish with 3+ combo points to guarantee a 4+ Envenom.

  4. #24
    Placing Toxic blade in the MA opener creates a more safe opener. Using the Legion opener is riskier, but can result in higher dps. Also note that having an extra mutilate means an extra chance for a DD proc, and if it crits, that is a ton of damage.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Sotsu View Post
    I understand that you need to put as many envenoms as possible in the MA window, but look at it this way, the MA window is 4 abilities, the one done from stealth, then one every second MA is up.
    Vanish
    Envenom (1)
    Mutilate (2)
    Envenom (3)
    Mutilate (4)

    vs
    Vanish
    Toxic Blade (1)
    Envenom (2)
    Mutilate (3)
    Envenom (4)

    The only trade is you get a Toxic Blade over a Mutilate. Even if both hands from Mutilate crit, it is still less damage than a Toxic Blade crit, and you still get the same number of Envenoms in the MA window. You just have to make sure to vanish with 3+ combo points to guarantee a 4+ Envenom.
    i went back and double checked, just to be sure. The MA window isn't 4 GCDs or 4 seconds, it's three from the moment stealth breaks. This means that if you're lucky, you might clip the end of that 3 second window with something within the quarter second or so you have.

    It's also worth noting that mutilate does more damage with double dose(which you should be using x3) than toxic blade does - 2 or 3x more. A small example i looked up from a TB use in the middle of M-Opulence - DD did 96k twice in a row(double crits), that's without vendetta. TB max crit on the above fight was 50k even. DD max crit was 59k(one hand - not including mutilate damage).

    So while technically you may be able to sometimes execute your opener properly, it's not the highest damage use of your abilities. Envenom has the highest damage potential, followed closely by DDx3 mutilate. TB doesn't even come close.

    Even if you can get away with clipping it in sometimes, it's still not nearly worthwhile, especially when you can get 2 envenoms 1 mutilate, and occasionally, possibly, clip in a second mutilate.

    History also supports my position - MA has been in the game since Legion, and the rotation for its use has never included TB being used within the crit window(no matter what the duration was changed to)

    TLDR: get 3x Double Dose.

    Hmm opulence might not have been the best example. I did pull the example off of yalat damage and not the boss though. Edit: looking at the opener, DD still shits on TB.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Varolyn View Post
    Placing Toxic blade in the MA opener creates a more safe opener. Using the Legion opener is riskier, but can result in higher dps. Also note that having an extra mutilate means an extra chance for a DD proc, and if it crits, that is a ton of damage.
    i'm a dbag so i didn't say this.
    Last edited by elfporn; 2019-03-09 at 10:34 PM.

  6. #26
    we can agree that envenom>double crit mutilate>evenom. will do the most damage within the crit buff window.
    but its not as reliable as using toxic blade in the window. and it also clips the elaborate planning and envenom buffs, which is a dps loss.
    if you got 3xdouble dose traits, it may be better to TB before vanish, then mut>env>mut.
    Last edited by mojusk; 2019-03-11 at 02:04 PM.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by elfporn View Post
    History also supports my position - MA has been in the game since Legion, and the rotation for its use has never included TB being used within the crit window(no matter what the duration was changed to)
    You are correct about BFA's opener. Double Dose changes the game and Mutilate with double dose is way harder of a hit than TB.
    That was absolutely not the case in Legion. TB was part of the MA opener right before Kingsbane and you definitely wanted to get Kingsbane's application in that window before vanishing and going through the envenom spam. So while again, you are 1000% correct for BFA, history does not actually support you.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by mojusk View Post
    we can agree that envenom>double crit mutilate>evenom. will do the most damage within the crit buff window.
    but its not as reliable as using toxic blade in the window. and it also clips the elaborate planning and envenom buffs, which is a dps loss.
    if you got 3xdouble dose traits, it may be better to TB before vanish, then mut>env>mut.
    using toxic blade within the MA window increases the reliability of what? the ability works the same way as mutilate - it's a two-shot attack. it's LESS reliable to use tb-envenom-mut-(and hope for) envenom. Wherein your two-shot gamble attacks are used on guaranteed GCDs, and you hope to clip in the second nuke.

    As for clipping elaborate planning and envenom - you're going to tell me that in all situations it's a loss to clip those two buffs? because that's not true, especially not true when stacking cooldowns and fitting in as many of your highest dps attacks within a short period of time, you will clip those buffs, and do it often. (i'm talking about real-world play, not sims say this or that)

    Lastly, mut-envenom-mut with DD procs in an MA window, and 3x DD, wouldn't do too bad, but it's not as high dps as envenom mut envenom.(you should always vanish with 5cp fyi)

    Much of this depends on gear too i suppose. If you have haste over everything and poop mastery/crit, your envenoms and DDs will hit like your 90yo grandmother battin the dog away from her dinner. I personally have pretty balanced stats overall, with stat weights shifting priorities with every upgrade(Reorigination array was a pita for me)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathris View Post
    You are correct about BFA's opener. Double Dose changes the game and Mutilate with double dose is way harder of a hit than TB.
    That was absolutely not the case in Legion. TB was part of the MA opener right before Kingsbane and you definitely wanted to get Kingsbane's application in that window before vanishing and going through the envenom spam. So while again, you are 1000% correct for BFA, history does not actually support you.
    i guess i forgot to reply, i know i had it all typed up. gdi

    in Legion, you wanted to use vanish in such a way as to encompass the ass end of kingsbane with the MA window+TB window(because kb was a crescendoing ability)

    You never ever used TB within the MA window(it was even more of a waste to do so back in legion).

    It would be something like kb-([email protected] left on kb)-([email protected] left on kb)-envenom, mut, envenom, mut, envenom. iirc MA was 6sec at one point - you'd use vanish at 6sec instead.

    There were lazy ways to do it to reduce complexity, which all had to do with when to use TB/vanish within the kb duration (basically, if you were unable to track kb adequately, you'd just use it at any point during kb).

    That's all ancient history though. Also, i can't recall when/if subterfuge extended the MA window, there was so much buggy shit goin on with vanish/subterfuge in legion.
    Last edited by elfporn; 2019-03-12 at 01:49 PM.

  9. #29
    It's realy funny to see people try to help other people with no understanding from this class.

    TB after Vanish gets more value. Why i know that? I TEST IT !

    If i Multilate -> TB -> Vanish -> ENVENOM i make ~ 5-10k DPS less on the opener as with VANISH -> TB -> MULTI -> EN

    You dont believe me? Go and Test it in the next Raid ! (dont test it on a dully doll)


    Why peopla alwayse ask other people? Why people dont can test it for you self? I mean as example Dr.Jay.. All guys in the chat writing: What is the best spec .. Which Talent should i choose?

    But dr.jay cannot ask other people. So how he now it? RIGHT ! HE TEST IT!

    So get you balls in your hand and test it !

    Edit:

    Maybe its for me and my gear the best.. i mean... EnV - Mut- EnV should be give your more value in the MA Window.. but on the complete opener you get more value if you vanish befor TB.. and a nice side effect.. your CD from Vanish can be used ~5 sec earlier again
    Last edited by Asunis; 2019-03-20 at 09:46 AM.

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