Page 5 of 5 FirstFirst ...
3
4
5
  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Because "Side X wins, form La Resistance" and so on isn't generic content that can be easily tweaked for both sides. Please see BoD. The hype was two totally different raids with different perspectives. The reality is you race change for certain fights.
    Naw, you can make it fairly cheap and easy, mostly a matter of changing the town guards around. They already invest heavily in making the quests different for each faction, so no excess cost there. Throw in an occasional quest where you're hunted in what used to be your faction's capital, but otherwise have your papers in order thanks to forged documents etc, and you're golden. It doesn't have to be expensive.

  2. #82
    I agree though, not going to change your mind. The faction war, as it's currently being told, is a sideshow to the main narrative with the titans, and void lords and old gods and whatnot.

    Seems so petty in comparison.

    Granted, it's a bit exciting seeing the world change as a result of the conflict, but when you know neither side can "win" to keep balance, it really makes it seem contrived, especially when you consider the presence of the MUCH bigger bads out there.
    When you are dead, you don't know that you are dead. It is difficult only for the others. It is the same when you are Stupid

  3. #83
    @Zaktar
    True, but you're assuming creativity. Besides, any such event would likely be limited time, and people already whine about limited time events.
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I'll buy an Anduin shirt if Delaryn doesn't end up betraying Sylvanas by the end of the expansion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    @Zaktar
    True, but you're assuming creativity. Besides, any such event would likely be limited time, and people already whine about limited time events.
    As I said, that would be the boring way, the interesting way would be to let it play out over a long period of time.

    I agree it would never happen, just an interesting idea (to me) which could work, even within the confines of budget. The game is made by a corporation though and while I disagree with the notion that the designers lack creativity, I do think they are too well managed to take such a big risk. Which is too bad, the game could use a bold risk.

  5. #85
    @Feanoro

    Don't get me wrong, they're not on the level of the WC3 nelves, but the mindset is there, as are all their units and the style. If they stuck this course, you'd have something really good going. The issue is they're fucked by the format, since there's a Sword of Damocles over their head and it reads "T-MINUS 1 PATCHES BEFORE ANDUIN FORGIVES THE HORDE".
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    It creates a stronger sense of "telling both sides of the story", enhancing the benefit of playing both factions (hell, we had completely unique storylines for both for the first time in ever).

    It lets us have a comparatively sympathetic and complex enemy, which let's be honest none of the others ever are. What does Deathwing want? Burn stuff, destroy world. What does the Lich King want? Zombify stuff, destroy world. They're not that complicated at the end of the day. If the faction war didn't lead to a more complicated and investing story, we wouldn't have people arguing about the details of it literally every day on these forums.
    People are bored and argue over anything. I literally argued over broccoli vs asparagus yesterday. Doesn't make it interesting. Also, Anduin and Sylvanas are about as one dimensional as it gets, and Garrosh's motivation amounted to nothing more than daddy issues and roid rage.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaktar View Post
    The game is made by a corporation though and while I disagree with the notion that the designers lack creativity, I do think they are too well managed to take such a big risk. Which is too bad, the game could use a bold risk.
    Fully agree, didn't mean to imply that it's the designers who lack creativity. A LOT of decisions have clearly been made by spreadsheet jockeys... sorry, dumbasses... sorry, managers. Everything we predicted about selling out to Activision came true, after all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    @Feanoro

    Don't get me wrong, they're not on the level of the WC3 nelves, but the mindset is there, as are all their units and the style. If they stuck this course, you'd have something really good going. The issue is they're fucked by the format, since there's a Sword of Damocles over their head and it reads "T-MINUS 1 PATCHES BEFORE ANDUIN FORGIVES THE HORDE".
    Even it wasn't Anduin, it'd be some Varian-t on Horde not remotely paying for their rampages ("We will end you!" Riiiiiiiiiiiight.). I'd disagree about even the mindset. WC3 mindset isn't the warfront's "Take back the land from the Horde!" WC3 mindset would be "Kill every last one of these filthy invaders to purify the land!"
    Last edited by Feanoro; 2019-03-05 at 09:27 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I'll buy an Anduin shirt if Delaryn doesn't end up betraying Sylvanas by the end of the expansion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."

  8. #88
    Some of the individual moments are alright but I really don't like the faction war as the main focus.

    Yes, back in WC 1 and 2, that's what the core of the game was.

    We moved past that in WC 3 and the story was better for it. But because 'WAR in WARcraft' we have to keep going back to it, and BFA has had too many parallels to MOP to even feel somewhat original with it, and I have very little faith that BFA will still be about the faction war by 8.3's raid.

    If we must have the factions taking shots at eacother keep it smaller scale in individual zone stories. I really hope that BFA is the swansong of the faction war as a main driving conflict for an expansion and we just go back to Vanilla-BC levels of faction conflict.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Even it wasn't Anduin, it'd be some Varian-t on Horde not remotely paying for their rampages ("We will end you!" Riiiiiiiiiiiight.). I'd disagree about even the mindset. WC3 mindset isn't the warfront's "Take back the land from the Horde!" WC3 mindset would be "Kill every last one of these filthy invaders to purify the land!"
    We did have some of this in A Good War when they cooked those Horde soldiers alive. And I don't think they at the moment are limited to Darkshore in terms of aims.

    As for the problem, the problem is in the way Blizzard commits to writing faction conflict. Too high stakes and at the same time the commitment to end it in one expansion, rather than allow an on-going regional and proxy war where neither side has to give up its grievances.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    @Feanoro

    Don't get me wrong, they're not on the level of the WC3 nelves, but the mindset is there, as are all their units and the style. If they stuck this course, you'd have something really good going. The issue is they're fucked by the format, since there's a Sword of Damocles over their head and it reads "T-MINUS 1 PATCHES BEFORE ANDUIN FORGIVES THE HORDE".
    Part of me still hopes we are at T-minus 2 patches before the factions split up over grievances N'zoth helped engineer while growing a mustache to twirl (a squid with a mustache!) so next xpac we can dissolve the faction barrier and focus on RACIAL storylines.

    Tyrande deserves a throne made of orc and forsaken skulls. Give the girl some bling to make up for not getting laid for a millenium!

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Part of me still hopes we are at T-minus 2 patches before the factions split up over grievances N'zoth helped engineer while growing a mustache to twirl (a squid with a mustache!) so next xpac we can dissolve the faction barrier and focus on RACIAL storylines.

    Tyrande deserves a throne made of orc and forsaken skulls. Give the girl some bling to make up for not getting laid for a millenium!
    The optimist in me thinks dissolving the factions will allow the writers to focus on individual racial stories and grievances that couldn't be addressed without fluid alliances. The realist in me knows that it'll just be a non-stop human potential fest now that no other races need apply even for gameplay reasons.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The optimist in me thinks dissolving the factions will allow the writers to focus on individual racial stories and grievances that couldn't be addressed without fluid alliances. The realist in me knows that it'll just be a non-stop human potential fest now that no other races need apply even for gameplay reasons.
    Here is the thing. Tying to my signature, I think one thing that stops a world revamp, even a partial one, is that a large number of the zones and questlines would only be relevant to a small number of players. Not everyone will want to do quests about the Forsaken or the Dwarves and if we are talking about making the world useful at max level, you will just not feel any connection to Dun Morogh as an orc. But what if we could quest everywhere?
    Removing the faction barrier means that a lot more content suddenly becomes available for everyone. Sure some of it will be weird as hell. A Worgen questing for the Forsaken just sounds retarded. One option would be to have an intervening expansion where we are actually brought to the brink of extinction. My expansion idea for after Legion was to spend an entire expansion travelling back from Argus and only in the last xpac to arrive to Azeroth to find that the Black Empire WON and the few remaining people had joined, regardless of past hatred simply so as to survive.
    The portals rooms in 8.1.5 are killing that idea. It just seems certain that Blizzard is committed to Stormwind and Orgrimmar and nothing will change from that.

  13. #93
    The faction war would be a lot better if the Horde was just a flat out dark faction, instead of a recolored Alliance. Maybe not full on evil to the extent of the Scourge, Legion, Twilight cultists, etc, but at least a very dark shade of grey, while keeping the Alliance a more traditional good. As it is, any justification for the faction war went out the window in Cataclysm, when the Alliance started recruiting traditionally dark outcasts as well, which has only been added to with Dark Iron and Void Elves. At this point, there is no clear defining difference between them, and anytime a leader like Garrosh or Sylvanas tries to make them darker, the rest of the Horde characters, as well as a large chunk of the playerbase, whines about it and rebels. So yes, as long as there is no discernible difference between the factions, there might as well not even be a split, and it does detract from the story. Ganking is the only use I have for separate factions.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Here is the thing. Tying to my signature, I think one thing that stops a world revamp, even a partial one, is that a large number of the zones and questlines would only be relevant to a small number of players. Not everyone will want to do quests about the Forsaken or the Dwarves and if we are talking about making the world useful at max level, you will just not feel any connection to Dun Morogh as an orc. But what if we could quest everywhere?
    Removing the faction barrier means that a lot more content suddenly becomes available for everyone. Sure some of it will be weird as hell. A Worgen questing for the Forsaken just sounds retarded. One option would be to have an intervening expansion where we are actually brought to the brink of extinction. My expansion idea for after Legion was to spend an entire expansion travelling back from Argus and only in the last xpac to arrive to Azeroth to find that the Black Empire WON and the few remaining people had joined, regardless of past hatred simply so as to survive.
    The portals rooms in 8.1.5 are killing that idea. It just seems certain that Blizzard is committed to Stormwind and Orgrimmar and nothing will change from that.
    Blizzard have shot down the idea of a full all at once world revamp recently and I can understand why. It sucked up a lot of resources in Cataclysm and it left the endgame barren and fairly plotless as well from a story viewpoint. I also think that far too much is tied to the factions in previous content to make it apply to everyone without seriously fucking it over and Danuser and the like have said that the factions are staying in some form. It's why I'm betting that we'll just get peacemode to solve the raid imbalance issue and they'll call it a day.

    The main issue from a story perspective is that in neutrality expansions the focus is already on a fairly limited cast that I've named enough already. The factions mean that at least some air time from the others is required, but in a factionless world that's not the case. They'll be able to freely pretend that content themed for one faction is for all players and we already know what they like - moral lessons, human potential and black and white conflict.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  15. #95
    The only expansion where the faction conflict made sense was cata. Where both sides were "Battling for the world's deminished resources". Idea for BFA was good, but poorly executed. It was too random and sudden. There should have been way more build up.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Blizzard have shot down the idea of a full all at once world revamp recently and I can understand why. It sucked up a lot of resources in Cataclysm and it left the endgame barren and fairly plotless as well from a story viewpoint. I also think that far too much is tied to the factions in previous content to make it apply to everyone without seriously fucking it over and Danuser and the like have said that the factions are staying in some form. It's why I'm betting that we'll just get peacemode to solve the raid imbalance issue and they'll call it a day.

    The main issue from a story perspective is that in neutrality expansions the focus is already on a fairly limited cast that I've named enough already. The factions mean that at least some air time from the others is required, but in a factionless world that's not the case. They'll be able to freely pretend that content themed for one faction is for all players and we already know what they like - moral lessons, human potential and black and white conflict.
    Honestly as we are now, merging factions would make no sense. Both factions have too long a history of bloodshed to stop now. The only thing that could change that is either an external threat or the war being truly catastrophic like World War 1 and 2 were. The latter could have very well happened if Blizzard had balls. Because if they want to teach us about how War is bad, the solution is not to joke about it and pull punches, it's to make it clear that war is HELL. Pile up so many atrocities that the people of Azeroth have no other option than choose between peace or extinction. That alternative is a scenario like I described in which we lose and we are too weak or too divided to fight alone so however much we hate each other we have no choice. In such a case we would not have a world revamp but rather a world remake; imagine if almost the entire world sinks beneath the waves due to N'zoth and we only have a couple of zone clusters (the places with high altitude so North Kalimdor and Khaz Modan) where everyone is forced to cluster. Old world can be revisited by Bronze Dragonflight.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    In such a case we would not have a world revamp but rather a world remake; imagine if almost the entire world sinks beneath the waves due to N'zoth and we only have a couple of zone clusters (the places with high altitude so North Kalimdor and Khaz Modan) where everyone is forced to cluster. Old world can be revisited by Bronze Dragonflight.
    The last suggestion is very risky, but I can see some version of it happening more than I can a world revamp. Honestly, the bronze dragons should allow Blizzard to make much more liberal use of old zones, but it's one of those things they haven't fully exploited yet.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •