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  1. #21
    WoW healing is fine.

    t. Holy Priest since BfA launch

  2. #22
    Scarab Lord Nnyco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wombats23 View Post
    WoW isn't here to reinvent the wheel. If you want a less traditional healer and more support role, go play FFXIV.
    Literally all wow did was invent new shit for mmo's that others are just copyin.
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  3. #23
    Honestly this feels like a problem that exists in your mind only. The only complaints I hear from tanks is that their class isn't good enough for some fights (imo half of the time it's because they just don't know how to use their cooldowns). I've never heard a tank complaining they want to do more self-healing.

    As being said: healers can already spec into more damaging abilities if they want to. And it's fine if they don't want to. Let's not create a solution for something that is not an actual problem.
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  4. #24
    Generally in raiding, if your healers have enough time to dps, then you would try to run with one less healer and take another dps instead.
    I don't think that many healers spend parts of raids/dungeons standing there not doing anything...

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Autumn View Post
    Generally in raiding, if your healers have enough time to dps, then you would try to run with one less healer and take another dps instead.
    I don't think that many healers spend parts of raids/dungeons standing there not doing anything...
    And this is the thing I would agree with most. If you have time to dps as a healer you are running too many healers. Drop a healer and add an extra dps if you want more dps.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsav1 View Post
    And this is the thing I would agree with most. If you have time to dps as a healer you are running too many healers. Drop a healer and add an extra dps if you want more dps.
    Or maybe you're in a phase that can be made easier with extra DPS, but you need more healing in the next one. M Opulence still needs two dispels per side, but it's not like pushing before/during Flames doesn't help out - and then there's phase two. It's rarely as simple as "just drop a healer".

  7. #27
    Like others have said it makes balance really hard. Even now some healers are bit crazy with the DPS they can do.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Zephire View Post
    Then you have PvP, I hate healers in PvP. If you go up against two dps in a 1v2 situation, you might outplay and kill one (or both) of them. However, if it's instead a healer and a dps, it's almost impossible to even kill one of them due to heals being so incredibly good. There's a reason you have dampening in arena.
    Tying into what the OP said and what you noted above, if each character had more self sustain, then they could tone down healers and they wouldn't be so god-like in PvP. They just need to offload some healing from them and give a bit to other classes, so they would actually have to work at it to stay alive in PvP, and not be almost impossible to kill as it stands now. Just a thought...

  9. #29
    I generally agree that it limits the design space quite a bit to have a dedicated healer role that's expected to do little else other than restore HP. I think it's too late in the day to rework the trinity dynamic completely (as much as I might want them to personally), but I'd absolutely adore the introduction of support specs that focus more on buffing, debuffing, and utility rather than slotting into one of the existing niches. It would take some time to work out all the kinks in a role like that, but there's an obvious opening for it that I think a lot of players would love.

  10. #30
    This would never work the same reason everything else doesnt work.

    They know their community, they know how they play more than anyone.

    If the game becomes to a point where "Hybrid healers" can manage everything you will have the better players not even taking healers because they can dodge/outheal everything, and the bottom players not even finishing the first pack because they simply cant play and there is no healing to save their terribleness.

    It also makes PvP a nightmare, if everyone was a Discipline priest playstyle in 1v1 then they would be no reason to play other classes for PvP.

    Like the bear shaman in AoC, or the Priest Melee-spec in Knight Online and many similar concepts that are awesome on paper and PvE, and in PvP its simply retarded balance because they are stupidly OP in small group situations.
    Last edited by potis; 2019-02-26 at 03:04 PM.

  11. #31
    Staggering how bad most of the replies to this are, but I guess it shouldn't be surprising. A lot of healers, particularly those who don't push m+, are shockingly bad players who are able to hide in raids because their metrics are harder to analyze than "raw dps number." Many people still have this mentality that just having healing spells makes them super important, but it's not 2005 anymore.

    Anyway yes, I agree with most of this but it would obviously have to be done carefully. Instead of changing the whole paradigm I think there should be larger talent shifts (and traits, but azerite sucks so let's not even talk about it) to let healers significantly reduce their potential HPS but boost their DPS. Basically the "gladiator's stance" for healers. This way they couldn't just shift back and forth mid match in arena or mid dungeon in m+

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyris Flare View Post
    Staggering how bad most of the replies to this are, but I guess it shouldn't be surprising. A lot of healers, particularly those who don't push m+, are shockingly bad players who are able to hide in raids because their metrics are harder to analyze than "raw dps number." Many people still have this mentality that just having healing spells makes them super important, but it's not 2005 anymore.

    Anyway yes, I agree with most of this but it would obviously have to be done carefully. Instead of changing the whole paradigm I think there should be larger talent shifts (and traits, but azerite sucks so let's not even talk about it) to let healers significantly reduce their potential HPS but boost their DPS. Basically the "gladiator's stance" for healers. This way they couldn't just shift back and forth mid match in arena or mid dungeon in m+
    Yeah, we can see how this works with Way of the Crane, completely OP and unbalanced, especially in 2v2 and when combined with Arms Warrior in 3v3 you are lucky if you survive the initial burst, yes maybe the 2.5k rating ones survive it but overall as a concept its OP.

    Unless they decide to stop fucking around and make things scale different (and properly) in PvP and PvE, there will always be problems with DPS healers

    Which is why the main complain the last few expansions in PvP is always "The Discipline Priest", they kinda gutted him this expansion early but still has its moments.

  13. #33
    Bloodsail Admiral Nasuuna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wombats23 View Post
    The fact of the matter is, you're asking Blizzard to add a completely new role to the game which can only screw everything up. Imagine the 5 man meta. Are "pure" healers not meta anymore? Well then those that like that playstyle are screwed. What if a healer and support is meta? So now you only want 2 DPS out of 24 DPS specs?

    Alternatively, lets think about it from an optimistic point of view. Lets say everything is balanced pretty well, you'd end up with something akin to the TBC raiding meta. Now you have super strict comp requirements! Fun! Gotta have that 1 support shaman for windfury and grace of air, that one support druid for moonkin aura, that one priest for mana battery, etc.

    You're asking for something that would completely change the dynamics of group play in WoW. Just think how poorly that can and likely will turn out. Yes, if it works it'll be great and exciting, but why would you want that out of WoW when other games already offer it? Fun idea, just not feasible.

    edit: reading over my post, my points are pretty unfocused. Long story short, adding a new role isn't a small task. Make no mistake, you're asking WoW to reinvent its gameplay. And simply put, I don't think that's a smart move. A best case scenario where a new role is integrated well seems unlikely. A worst case scenario on the other hand, well who knows. Just with Blizzard's track record and lack of staff after the recent cuts, a bad case scenario seems more likely.
    Rift had this perfectly with their spec switch setup.

    Before power creep, you'd have 1 tank 2 dps 1 healer and 1 *support*

    The support would switch multiple times per dungeon to a 2nd healer, a 3rd dps, or an actually support like bard or archon to buff the group and debuff the enemy. In 5mans the support wasn't always mandatory since the 3rd dps was more dps, or the 2nd healer was more healing. There was that sweet middle ground though where you needed more heals than you healer could put out, but not a full 2nd healer.

    That's the sweet spot of support right there.

    Then in raids you had 2 supports with the rest of your 20man, or 1 in your 10man

    Quote Originally Posted by Voidwielder View Post
    WoW healing is fine.

    t. Holy Priest since BfA launch
    WoW healing is good, could be improved

    t. Holy Priest since BC

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    Yeah, we can see how this works with Way of the Crane, completely OP and unbalanced, especially in 2v2 and when combined with Arms Warrior in 3v3 you are lucky if you survive the initial burst, yes maybe the 2.5k rating ones survive it but overall as a concept its OP.

    Unless they decide to stop fucking around and make things scale different (and properly) in PvP and PvE, there will always be problems with DPS healers

    Which is why the main complain the last few expansions in PvP is always "The Discipline Priest", they kinda gutted him this expansion early but still has its moments.
    I mean I agree that pvp needs to be balanced completely differently, this is on the developers

  15. #35
    Remove healing or make healers even less required and i am off of this game.

    Already in a M+ with a good group the healer is only the "topper" or when the tank pulls too much and shit hits the fan. Tanks are already way too much self sustainable, every other spec has some sort of 20-30sec CD to heal themselves. When the healer is dead the group usually survives pretty well.

    Loved the playstyle of healers in Tera Online, even with an experienced group you could still fuck up and were dependant on the healers ability to stay focused. But Tera lacked in other departments, hence why i'm still sticking to WoW.

  16. #36
    Old God Aggrophobic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    To begin with, I do not blame the healer community here. They have a perfectly reasonable expectation to continue playing the same way they could play since the start of this game.

    In WoW's trinity of roles, one of the roles is described as the healer. For much of WoW players with the healer role expected to devote almost the entire of their time in instanced content healing. Rarely they might deal with an encounter mechanic, provide some CC and a small number of them would actually be willing to dps.
    This has somewhat changed since Legion with M+ when both healer CC and healer damage have become very important. The community, especially the hardcore, have also made it clear that there are windows in raid encounters when a healer does not need to heal and should be dpsing instead but in most such threads I see a lot of pushback to that idea and that matches my experience in game with few healers actually trying to dps.

    In D&D, the father of most RPGs, there is no formal trinity. Clerics who can heal, also often function as tanks and in most editions of the game, healing spells would be a small part of the cleric repertoire, who'd focus on increasing group damage output to end the fight fast and then heal them out of combat or acting as a secondary tank since they had excellent armor. In the most gamist of editions, 4E, the role was called Leader to signify that it focused far more on buffs and debuffs and less on healing.
    Other MMORPGs also follow the much looser approach to roles that D&D has. GW2 has no trinity of roles; ESO does have tanks and healers, but in a good group the healers are far more focused on buff/debuff/helping others sustain resources than with healing.

    My issue here is that Blizzard, addressing the desire of players who expect a healing-only playstyle to be viable, constrain the design of everyone else. The most affected by this are clearly tanks. Most tanks I know have had the most fun in expansions when they were nearly self-sufficient. A meta where healers are less important could also focus a lot more on player defenses and round out characters in a game that increasingly cares about solo play.

    At the same time, a healing-only playstyle is the only role currently in game that does not age well in each tier, being very challenging early in progress to growing boring during farming to the point that the only way to keep healers busy is to actively drop one or two, something that should be less desirable for the community. Tanks can slowly trade mitigation for damage as their gear gets stronger and damage can chase the meters throughout the tier.
    A support instead of healer role will continue scaling throughout the raid tier; you will still heal occasionally

    My proposal would be to offer two healer styles for most if not all healer specs; one stays as they current are and the second focuses on offering support and healing (with new abilities that allow for healing support) yet has weak (or unsustainable without also doing a damage rotation) throughput outside flexible cooldowns. So in raids you can have a mix of pure healers and support healers who kick in when the damage goes high and in M+ you will mostly have healers play support.
    I sorta agree with this. The bolded part in in particular.

  17. #37
    Bloodsail Admiral Nasuuna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    I sorta agree with this. The bolded part in in particular.
    My tanks in SoO could literally solo Heroic Thok from like 60%

  18. #38
    Old God Aggrophobic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nasuuna View Post
    My tanks in SoO could literally solo Heroic Thok from like 60%
    Yes, you could. With the right gear it's not that big of an issue in my mind. Class design in MoP was the greatest its ever been in WoW in my opinion and I really miss it. The expansion had issues (like every other expansion) but just having fun class design made me feel like the other parts mattered little.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Sosua View Post
    Tying into what the OP said and what you noted above, if each character had more self sustain, then they could tone down healers and they wouldn't be so god-like in PvP. They just need to offload some healing from them and give a bit to other classes, so they would actually have to work at it to stay alive in PvP, and not be almost impossible to kill as it stands now. Just a thought...
    Diminishing return on heals could work as well. Was a great system in Bloodline Champions (early Battlerite). If you let a character take to much damage before healing then you'd not be able to top them off. So the amount of maximum health you could heal someone to was determined by time in combat and damage taken along with your healing output. Can't really explain it, rofl, but it was good!
    Well met!

  20. #40
    Some additional thoughts

    Yes, if you are pushing really high keys, at some point you need a pure healer to simply be able to handle the hps of unavoidable damage, especially with certain affixes. But my suggestion was never to remove pure healing builds, simply to allow all or at least most healers access to talent builts that are a more even balance between support and healing. The vast majority that even does M+ does lower level keys and very few really go beyond 10-15. Past that point group composition fast becomes very restrictive anyway.
    In raids, especially in Mythic raids, I would expect 2-3 healers to still keep pure healing builds then 1-2 to use support builds; it is very common in raiding to need burst hps to deal with specific mechanics.

    As for support either being useless or too valuable, that is up to tuning. I'd suggest flat scaling values instead of percentile buffs so that the tradeof between healing and an additional dps is clear for everyone.

    Finally, class design that is not encumbered by the need to find something for a healer to do even at simple content can move more personal responsibility to dps but also allow them more survivability. This allows for a lot more challenging solo content. Make the world dangerous.
    Last edited by Nymrohd; 2019-02-26 at 05:28 PM.

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