why do we say ugly people are beautiful?

[Doctor Amadeus]

For years, classical Greek sculpture was believed to be a perfectionist fantasy - an impossible ideal, but we now think a number of the exquisite statues from the 5th to the 3rd Centuries BC were in fact cast from life - a real person was covered with plaster, and the mould created was then used to make the sculpture.

For the Greeks a beautiful body was considered direct evidence of a beautiful mind. They even had a word for it - kaloskagathos - which meant being gorgeous to look at, and hence being a good person.

Beauty was frequently a competitive sport. Beauty contests - kallisteia - were a regular fixture in the training grounds of the Olympics at Elis and on the islands of Tenedos and Lesbos, where women were judged as they walked to and fro

There was even a contest in honour of Aphrodite Kallipugos - Aphrodite of the beautiful buttocks, where women were judged based on their butts

Let's try Ancient Rome! Beauty masks and makeup :
To keep their skin beautiful, women put at night a mask called tectorium (traditionally invented by Popea, Emperor Nero's wife), which they would remove the next day with milk. They exfoliated their bodies by smearing olive oil and then applying calcium carbonate or with pumice stones. Then they rinsed the mixture with water or with scented oils (cedar, myrrh, pine, lily, saffron, quince, jara, violet or roses). Women had to be careful with cosmetics because applying them too much was considered only proper for lupae (prostitutes)

The most used cosmetic was colour for the cheeks, which was considered healthy (although Plutarch advises to not use too much)
Long eyelashes were considered very beautiful (from the writings of Pliny, some women were totally obsessed with them). Eyes were shaped as big as possible with black antimony powder

Anything sounds familiar?
I stand by the statement. Not much has changed the last 2000 years

Nah just circumstancial nonsense. Like looking at PornHub as a premise of defining beauty or sex. When porn by its definition is manufactured. Made up art.

You can't draw anymore conclusions about objective beauty in Grece by such a standard either.

[Techno-Druid]

Unless you subscribe also to the thinking behind that purported myth that white people are objectively the most attractive. Which is precisely where that bullshit comes from.

Uhh, what? I'm talking about how different (environmental) factors can influence different cultures on what they largely perceive to be attractive and how they have changed for different human societies across millennia.

[CritFromAfar]

i'm saying that just because something or someone is ugly, doesn't mean it can't be attractive.

it's ugly, objectively. attraction to it doesn't change the fact.

http://i.imgur.com/rN9bCPD.jpg

^that is objectively ugly. there's still some sick motherfucker out there that'd fuck it.

"It"? You realize that's a human being and not a rock, right?

Well, this is when this turns into semantics.

Typically when one person is attracted to another, the very idea of the attraction makes the person they're attracted to "attractive". That person may not be attractive to you, but if people truly go off of personality over looks, then that person could still be a nice person and be someone that someone else could date and find appealing.

Or putting it in a more relatable way, maybe he's a supportive and loving guy and he has an equally well-rounded partner who doesn't mind that he's on the larger side.

[Zaktar]

why do we make them believe they are not ugly? if they are ugly... why should we not say they are ugly?

Because we don't all share your specific tastes.

[Kumorii]

And what reason would that be?

That majority think X is more beautiful than Y thus X will be portraited as the standard for beauty.
It's not rocket surgery.

[Korlok]

Cause you are beautiful.
In every single way.....

words....


can't..........



bbbbrrrriiiinnn...........ggg....

[Halyon]

You forgot the whole bra thing

Bras don't always help.

[msdos]

That majority think X is more beautiful than Y thus X will be portraited as the standard for beauty.
It's not rocket surgery.

Why did you add the "its not rocket surgery" part in? Why do the combative people respond to me?

You're so brilliant and smart, is that what you're looking for?

Standard for beauty

I never thought like this. That's what I mean by stereotype. You have to be stereotyping in the first place for there to even be a "standard", which is a social construct in the first place.

[Halyon]

That majority think X is more beautiful than Y thus X will be portraited as the standard for beauty.
It's not rocket surgery.

You mean rocket science. Looks ain't all that matters. Not to everyone.

[Doctor Amadeus]

Uhh, what? I'm talking about how different (environmental) factors can influence different cultures on what they largely perceive to be attractive and how they have changed for different human societies across millennia.

No none of that is true. And to suggest as much is as much unscientific thinking as anything else. Even animals and primates to not follow the patterns you're talking about.

Sure some features could lead to physical attraction at first sight as being attractive. But that in no way corerelates to objective views of beauty. Like at all.

[Yunaqt]

Calling someone ugly seems unnecessarily cruel.

This.

Just don't say anything at all. No need to randomly pointing out hurtful observations.
Instead of seeing see you later to old people do you say "Might see later if you haven't died. You know, because you're old and stuff".

[Alex86el]

some people are overly sensitive.
some people want to be liked.
some do it to not sadden the other person.
some people like to avoid (potential) confrontation.

it's silly. but it's not "bad". it is what it is.

and no, for the most part beauty is not "highly subjective", you're just lying to yourself.
yes, there are differences from culture to culture, but certain characteristics, are instinctively considered better-looking or not.

[CritFromAfar]

People have stereotyped ideas of beauty.

I discovered this growing up and realizing that 9 out 10 of my male friends thought features that I found attractive in women were repulsive:
Freckles, "horse face", long noses, bug eyes, no boobs but a nice backside, average looking girls in general.

Eventually I would just name all the features I thought were stigmas just to see what dudes would say and it's pretty obvious they all draw from blonde bimbo stereotype or the nubian queen or the latina firecracker or the traditional asian, since they all rule out the same stuff everytime and all find the most typical stuff attractive (big boobs, pretty, flawless skin, straight hair, perfect proportions all around, trendy perfection).
I mean not every guy is like that obviously, but you see it a lot.

Flaws like this make people more interesting and distinctive, throwing a wrench in the gears of overall objective beauty. The fact that you can still fit all the criteria you mentioned with the other stereotypes and still have these genetic flaws helps to back that up. (Google "freckled models")

[Kumorii]

Why did you add the "its not rocket surgery" part in? Why do the combative people respond to me?

You're so brilliant and smart, is that what you're looking for?


I never thought like this. That's what I mean by stereotype. You have to be stereotyping in the first place for there to even be a "standard", which is a social construct in the first place.

Standards for beatuy is a social construct, yes. Not sure what your point is. My point is that it becomes a standard and thus a stereotype because there will always be traits that majority find attractive.

[msdos]

Flaws like this make people more interesting and distinctive, throwing a wrench in the gears of overall objective beauty. The fact that you can still fit all the criteria you mentioned with the other stereotypes and still have these genetic flaws helps to back that up.

It's backed up even more when you over-analyze it.

People say freckles are ugly, but what do freckles resemble? Stars in the sky. So surely people must think star filled skies are ugly as well? Freckles resemble a lot of things and whatever your mind perceives is 100% your idea. This is like the Laymen explanation of "beauty is in the eye of the beholder"

They find their ideal image of beauty to be the only thing that's beautiful because they just haven't felt anything else?

[Techno-Druid]

No none of that is true. And to suggest as much is as much unscientific thinking as anything else. Even animals and primates to not follow the patterns you're talking about.

Sure some features could lead to physical attraction at first sight as being attractive. But that in no way corerelates to objective views of beauty. Like at all.

Dude, what are you smoking? I'm not saying that all traits we associate with a standard of beauty is objective. I literally outlined that fact in my OP.

What I am saying is that different factors influence different cultural standards of beauty. I'm...not sure how you can even argue against this...

[msdos]

My point is that it becomes a standard and thus a stereotype because there will always be traits that majority find attractive.

So when you responded to me you were just repeating what I was saying? Okay then...

My point: stereotype isn't an indicator of beauty, it's an indicator of popular features.

[Kumorii]

You mean rocket science. Looks ain't all that matters. Not to everyone.

it's a joke. And for the other point, haven't claimed such.

[Halyon]

I was talking more about the cost of larger bra sizes not the fact that they help or not

Also true. Ugh.

[Freighter]

It's backed up even more when you over-analyze it.

People say freckles are ugly, but what do freckles resemble? Stars in the sky. So surely people must think star filled skies are ugly as well? Freckles resemble a lot of things and whatever your mind perceives is 100% your idea. This is like the Laymen explanation of "beauty is in the eye of the beholder"

They find their ideal image of beauty to be the only thing that's beautiful because they just haven't felt anything else?

Uh, what? Stars in the sky? More like dirt in the face.