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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by ztn View Post

    same warlock discord FAQ section
    explain why all the top players have around 16% haste and even gem and enchant to reach that 16% haste breakpoint and why haste is the best stat when i sim my lock until i reach 16% eventhough i have 3xEP?
    Last edited by valky94; 2019-03-01 at 05:17 PM.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by valky94 View Post
    and i just simmed the best lock in the west acording to warcraftlogs and here is the proof https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/repo...jYfNyyvVZHfAD4

    even in his gear DC sims higher than NP
    so using the only correct option "patchwerk style" we have exactly same results - 4.5% NP advantage https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/repo...GUwtaZR8HpXPvm

    i recomend you to forget about every other variants of sim - it means exactly nothing and even sim developers don't know why they don't delete these options...
    Last edited by ztn; 2019-03-01 at 05:23 PM.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by ztn View Post

    same warlock discord FAQ section
    That doesn't mean those stat (weights) remain static.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by ztn View Post
    so using the only correct option "patchwerk style" we have exactly same results - 4.5% NP advantage https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/repo...GUwtaZR8HpXPvm
    there isnt a single patchwerk fight in BfD, with the closest being mekka, if NP is the true best talent, how come noone is using it?

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by valky94 View Post
    there isnt a single patchwerk fight in BfD, with the closest being mekka, if NP is the true best talent, how come noone is using it?
    it's my question if you don't read my 1st post or topic title...

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by valky94 View Post
    there isnt a single patchwerk fight in BfD, with the closest being mekka, if NP is the true best talent, how come noone is using it?
    I wrote you a nice wall of text about why light and heavy movement sims are useless. It does not matter if there is or isn't a patchwerk fight. The sim option is the best option we have. Light and heavy movement sims are unusable.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by ztn View Post
    it's my question if you don't read my 1st post or topic title...
    because it isnt the best talent for the raid, there is your answer, because there is only 1 pure ST fight in the raid

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by valky94 View Post
    there isnt a single patchwerk fight in BfD, with the closest being mekka, if NP is the true best talent, how come noone is using it?
    it doesnt matter... even if in realyty you need to move nonstop 10mins "patchwerk style" still give you more close results to compare... all other variants of siming is useless not maintained thrash...

  9. #49
    Look, derp.

    I answered your question already, you just don't seem to get a clue and think that outdated discord tidbits are end all be all.

    Reason IS Explosive Potential, because there is a bug that allows to Implode imps, get EP benefit AND benefit from Tyrant DCon at the same moment with simple spell queue Summon Tyrant -> Implosion. This is getting fixed in 8.1.5 in about 10 days from now.

    DCon was not bad already, but this interaction DUE TO EP buff launches it into stratosphere.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by ztn View Post
    it doesnt matter... even if in realyty you need to move nonstop 10mins "patchwerk style" still give you more close results to compare... all other variants of siming is useless not maintained thrash...
    im done here, i give up reasoning with you, you are too dense to understand that sims=!reality, stuff that sims better doesnt mean its actually better, while NP may have been the go to choice in uldir its not in BfD, even if it sims better, becaue uldir was a way more single target oriented raid, which is not the case in BfD (there is way more target swaping, adds, multiple bosses), people did tests in game and came to the conclusion that SS+DC is better for this raid, even if VF+NP sims better in pure ST

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Emerald Archer View Post
    Yeah, I mean that's a huge red flag, like one of the biggest stuff ups you could make with simming.

    You NEVER sim on light or heavy movement.

    The people who write the APLs for sims, do not put time and effort into light or heavy movement sims, these are going to be extremely accurate and significantly different to any real light or heavy movement scenario, patchwerk will be MUCH more accurate for any actual scenario even with light or heavy movement.

    The people who write the sims you follow, write the rotations, they do not touch light or heavy, and are very verbal about how incorrect and unusable they are.
    I'm rather curious where you get your info from. I like to use sims, but I don't follow much of anything surrounding them, like forums or discord, so info like this typically alludes me. I don't doubt it, but...

    I suppose my thought is, if it's unusable and just that bad, why do they even include them? It just seems incredibly misleading. Your average player typically won't seek out this kind of info, most people I know used light movement because pretty much every fight has some.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzhands View Post
    I'm rather curious where you get your info from. I like to use sims, but I don't follow much of anything surrounding them, like forums or discord, so info like this typically alludes me. I don't doubt it, but...

    I suppose my thought is, if it's unusable and just that bad, why do they even include them? It just seems incredibly misleading. Your average player typically won't seek out this kind of info, most people I know used light movement because pretty much every fight has some.
    The apl writers aren't the people who run simulationcraft and raidbots etc, they're people who just keep the rotational sides up to date.

    I get this information from the apl writers themselves, on their respective discords.

    It doesn't make much sense to include them, but it's basically a situation of, despite the fact that the people who write the rotations say you shouldn't use it, some bad players insist upon using it, because they can't comprehend how patchwerk would be more useful when things aren't patchwerk.

    So it remains a popular selection despite that.

    It's the same thing as wondering why people use pawn despite it being bad, or take the "top 5 specs in next expansion!" youtube videos seriously, it's just something to give to bad lazy players to let them enjoy because it really doesn't matter as they aren't playing properly anyway.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzhands View Post
    I'm rather curious where you get your info from. I like to use sims, but I don't follow much of anything surrounding them, like forums or discord, so info like this typically alludes me. I don't doubt it, but...

    I suppose my thought is, if it's unusable and just that bad, why do they even include them? It just seems incredibly misleading. Your average player typically won't seek out this kind of info, most people I know used light movement because pretty much every fight has some.
    People are using Patchwerk as a sim as a golden standard to try and understand maximum potential of the build.

    Going into grey areas of various side sims is problematic because:

    1. APL is often not optimized for that or other sim types. (this is a big one really)
    2. This is a slippery slope because you can then say, but there is really no light movement single target either... etc etc.

    So it's pointless to bother and people default to highest potential ST setup as some sort of golden standard, despite it being often misleading at best.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    People are using Patchwerk as a sim as a golden standard to try and understand maximum potential of the build.

    Going into grey areas of various side sims is problematic because:

    1. APL is often not optimized for that or other sim types. (this is a big one really)
    2. This is a slippery slope because you can then say, but there is really no light movement single target either... etc etc.

    So it's pointless to bother and people default to highest potential ST setup as some sort of golden standard, despite it being often misleading at best.
    People struggle to understand that working out your optimal setup, is a combination of patchwerk sims + your brain

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Emerald Archer View Post
    People struggle to understand that working out your optimal setup, is a combination of patchwerk sims + your brain
    That was always the case, especially now with some conditional Azerite traits galore.

    I remember this whole meme parade in Discord when in Legion one ex-mod pushed Roaring Blaze as if his life depended on it because sims said it was 4% better, except that it was also 200% more cancer to play which resulted in reality to not be any gain at all by logs simply because of mistakes and reality.

    This guy reminds me of him... wait a minute... OP... Silver, is that you?

  16. #56
    @OP To answer your question simply... Something may sim higher, but you must remember that sims are based on as close to 100% perfect play as possible.

    A more detailed response is, for example, your character may sim for single target 20k DPS, but you're executing 18.5K DPS. The human error element isn't factored in as well as execution of fight mechanics. On a fight like Grong, you're correct, NP will sim a lot higher, but at the same time that's if you don't have to move for a single fire placement, you're not switching to adds at all, and you're placing lust at a perfect time with NP. If you can't manage all those situations or RNG hits you with every missile, the consistent damage from DC may be overall higher.

    Also, most fights are heavy movement and target switching in BOD. The NP demons act like your imps, and are extremely delayed in target switching, so miss timing this could cost a lot of damage lost in the switch due to travel time or applying dead damage to the wrong add. Also, say RNG hits you like a bat and you have to move during your NP rotation, you are going to lose more damage than you would if you had DC which is easier to set up.

    At the end of it all, you are 100% correct that NP is simming higher in almost all situations, however, almost all warlocks including those in top 10 guilds are utilizing DC because it almost acts as a failsafe. NP is too clunky and requires a perfect alignment to get the full benefit from, which even the top players in the world will struggle battling the beta for azeroth level of RNG you'll get hit with. (My favorite is poping CDs on Conclave and then getting hexed or silenced /wrists)

    Hope this helps.

  17. #57
    There's also the Felguard energy haste bug at the moment that is making haste far more valuable than it should be. Supposedly it is now properly fixed on the PTR.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post

    DCon was not bad already, but this interaction DUE TO EP buff launches it into stratosphere.
    Man, I read through this thread and for the life of me I cannot tell if the OP is being serious or not. I can't tell if it's a bored troll or someone genuinely too stupid to understand sims, guides, dates on posts/pins, scaling, applied dps, dynamic values...I really can't tell at this point.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by SpikeySquad View Post
    There's also the Felguard energy haste bug at the moment that is making haste far more valuable than it should be. Supposedly it is now properly fixed on the PTR.
    wasnt the bug fixed in 8.1? hence why they increased all pet damage got increased by 15%?

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by valky94 View Post
    wasnt the bug fixed in 8.1? hence why they increased all pet damage got increased by 15%?
    It was meant to be. They didn't for demo and/or screwed something else up hence why our pet and especially Legion Strike and also GrimFel is hitting so hard.

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