Please notice Frost DK's blizzard

[Zeernial]

No specs in the game were ever meant to specifically fulfill a PvP role. As a matter of fact, WoW didn't even initially have PvP, so the whole game was not meant to have such aspect. Anyway, Frost in WotLK was one of the three specs in which you could tank/dps/pvp as a DK. And as far as I can remember DW or 2H was also a freedom of choice for all 3 specs, with some talents even fulfilling different traits based on what you wield. These among many others were ultimate charms for the DKs, but were lost with time, due to the disgusting amounts of homogenization we have seen throughout the years. Sadly, I don't think Blizzard care anymore for the quality of the game, as much as they care to deplete the remaining bits in the goldmine that WoW turned out to be, so they just do stupid stuff without thinking them through. This applies to both the gameplay and storyline.

Death Knight definitely had way more options back then, the game used to be CLASS first SPEC second. This changed around Cata I feel.
While you could dual wield or 2h frost, the best choice was dual wield due to being able to use razorice and fallen crusader, more killing machine procs, and better talents for it.
But you could go 2h the option was there, and you didn't have to spend talent points for the DW stuff, so those points got freed up to be spent elsewhere.

[Greengrim]

Death Knight definitely had way more options back then, the game used to be CLASS first SPEC second. This changed around Cata I feel.
While you could dual wield or 2h frost, the best choice was dual wield due to being able to use razorice and fallen crusader, more killing machine procs, and better talents for it.
But you could go 2h the option was there, and you didn't have to spend talent points for the DW stuff, so those points got freed up to be spent elsewhere.

Actually it was more of an AoE vs ST situation, where 2H was exceeding in ST and DW in AoE.

But yeah, playing Frost DK is currently way too boring. Or any other spec or class for that matter, simply due to the ridiculous GCD length. I still cannot comprehend how it's possible to have such masterminds at Blizz - the ones who came up with this, and the ones who thought it was a good idea.

[Skillslam]

Frost in wrath was a thinking man's spec

Lmfao

1. Obtain frost relic from XT-002

2. FROST STRIKE 6K FROST STRIKE 6K FROST STRIKE 6K

3. Gladiator

[Ange]

Lmfao

1. Obtain frost relic from XT-002

2. FROST STRIKE 6K FROST STRIKE 6K FROST STRIKE 6K

3. Gladiator

It was the IcyTouch spam with the very high crit chance and high burst from it. No counter to it. Frost was in wrath nothing special.

Or any other spec or class for that matter, simply due to the ridiculous GCD length.

I don't understand the pure GCD hate at all. Frost just sucks with the GCD change, because the cooldown do no instant damage/burst and are just basicly ramp-up or ressource generators unlike what most other specs got - thats why it sucks to press buttons, waste GCD's and nothing happens in game or you pool ressources for minimal gains.

For many players, the fast GCD/no GCD from the past was overwhelming - check the 100.000 of LOGs players sitting on free GCDs at patchwerk fights for no reason - and only specs with macroed cooldowns/trinkets exploited the whole situation.

For players playing at a high APM, the performance in game did not changed. Gray-parse player still parse in gray, because they still dont maximize APM even with the GCD change.

[Fkiolaris]

Actually it was more of an AoE vs ST situation, where 2H was exceeding in ST and DW in AoE.

But yeah, playing Frost DK is currently way too boring. Or any other spec or class for that matter, simply due to the ridiculous GCD length. I still cannot comprehend how it's possible to have such masterminds at Blizz - the ones who came up with this, and the ones who thought it was a good idea.

That's what I remember being the case up until MoP. Unfortunately, with WoD they decided to go full DW and the spec went downhill since then.

As for the gameplay of Frost, in Cata and MoP at least it was meant to be comparatively slower as a dps rotation, but you were getting big fat crits in comparison, plus you had a lot of useful utility to help in a number of scenarios. Somehow, Blizzard decided that removing most of the utility, enforcing a class fantasy that is contrary to everything Frost DK they have in their own game, slowing down the gameplay even more and removing the big hits/crits would make the spec better and more attractive- and I really have no words for that.

[RuneDK]

That's what I remember being the case up until MoP. Unfortunately, with WoD they decided to go full DW and the spec went downhill since then.

As for the gameplay of Frost, in Cata and MoP at least it was meant to be comparatively slower as a dps rotation, but you were getting big fat crits in comparison, plus you had a lot of useful utility to help in a number of scenarios. Somehow, Blizzard decided that removing most of the utility, enforcing a class fantasy that is contrary to everything Frost DK they have in their own game, slowing down the gameplay even more and removing the big hits/crits would make the spec better and more attractive- and I really have no words for that.

they didn't go full on with dw until legion...

[Shakana]

https://www.wowhead.com/news=291588....of-azshara-ptr

This player explained blizzard what's not working with this BoS build

[Fkiolaris]

they didn't go full on with dw until legion...

Technically you are correct, but practically in WoD 2H was so far behind DW that it might as well not be an option. At least that's what I remember, correct me if I am wrong.

[Shakana]

I'm getting too sad with Frost DK, they really don't play any of this. They don't seem to work on this anytime soon and they really want BoS to be played by everyone, we don't want that

[Greengrim]

...For players playing at a high APM, the performance in game did not changed. Gray-parse player still parse in gray, because they still dont maximize APM even with the GCD change.

I really don't know what you're talking about... I don't think you do either. Higher GCD, as well as the placement of many instant spells on GCD does indeed change EVERYTHING for high-performance players. They are literally forced to sit back and watch as that GCD spins, not being able to do anything else at all.

[Hoeth]

Technically you are correct, but practically in WoD 2H was so far behind DW that it might as well not be an option. At least that's what I remember, correct me if I am wrong.

2h was competitive at the start of the Xpac, but then it always was one of the stronger DPS specs during progression in the first raid tier because it had high baseline damage. One of the main problems with the spec was that it gained, comparatively, far less from gear upgrades than any other DPS spec in the game. At the start of WoD the only thing that "scaled" well for 2h was weapon damage, multistrike, and haste when there wasn't an opportunity for AMS soaking. After one became resource capped (which was fairly easy to do when there was incoming magic damage) the spec didn't scale with anything, and once you had a weapon that was it. Your damage gained very little with gear upgrades, and while strong on ST it was quite weak on AOE/cleave.

[Ange]

I really don't know what you're talking about... I don't think you do either. Higher GCD, as well as the placement of many instant spells on GCD does indeed change EVERYTHING for high-performance players. They are literally forced to sit back and watch as that GCD spins, not being able to do anything else at all.

Thats not true.
First the high waiting times and low APM for Frost are there because of the pooling for BoS and ressource starving after BoS. Both the pooling and timing of BoS is obviously not that easy, since the delta in LOG performance is pretty big for Frost DK.

While on the other hand you got DH with a very high APM, but since most attacks are minor in impact for the overall damage and the biggest damage abilitys are very hard to fail, we all see a very small delta in LOGs for similar geared players.

DH, even with its higher APM spec IS one or the easiest melee spec right now. The whole existence of this spec is basicly a counterargument to your claim.

[Fkiolaris]

2h was competitive at the start of the Xpac, but then it always was one of the stronger DPS specs during progression in the first raid tier because it had high baseline damage. One of the main problems with the spec was that it gained, comparatively, far less from gear upgrades than any other DPS spec in the game. At the start of WoD the only thing that "scaled" well for 2h was weapon damage, multistrike, and haste when there wasn't an opportunity for AMS soaking. After one became resource capped (which was fairly easy to do when there was incoming magic damage) the spec didn't scale with anything, and once you had a weapon that was it. Your damage gained very little with gear upgrades, and while strong on ST it was quite weak on AOE/cleave.

You are probably right. I picked up WoD halfway through (the story completely turned me off) and at that point I found 2H to be very weak.

[Greengrim]

Thats not true.
First the high waiting times and low APM for Frost are there because of the pooling for BoS and ressource starving after BoS. Both the pooling and timing of BoS is obviously not that easy, since the delta in LOG performance is pretty big for Frost DK.

While on the other hand you got DH with a very high APM, but since most attacks are minor in impact for the overall damage and the biggest damage abilitys are very hard to fail, we all see a very small delta in LOGs for similar geared players.

DH, even with its higher APM spec IS one or the easiest melee spec right now. The whole existence of this spec is basicly a counterargument to your claim.

You are talking about a completely different thing brother. I can understand that an easier mechanic of an ability is netting more APM for a class that does not require pooling or too much planning in general, like the DK's BoS (which by the way is an utterly retarded playstyle). And I am talking about the simple fact, that we are forced to sit and watch that long gcd spin and have nothing else to do in that time. It just feels dumb and is very underwhelming. Combine that with the placement of nearly all instants on GCD and here you have it, ridiculously slow and boring gameflow.

[Ange]

Combine that with the placement of nearly all instants on GCD and here you have it, ridiculously slow and boring gameflow.

"Slow and boring" is something we all see from comparisons with very simple and easy specs.

Frost DK could have GCD-free PoF, GCD-free RW and GCD-free ERW and it would be still "slow and boring" to things like Eyebeam/BladeDance or Blade Flurry, because the whole Frost DK damage done works with ramp-up, you spend runes, for more damage later on, you press FSc for more razorice stacks to do more damage later on.

Slow and boring is what there is if you don't want a hollow spec without any mechanics.

Do you remember the MoP Frost-DK with basicly just HowlingBlast spam and sitting on unholy runes? It was great for DPS, it was not "slow and boring" because you could spam 24/7. Thats what a DH is currently right now, just a broken spec iterration without any depth.

[Greengrim]

...Slow and boring is what there is if you don't want a hollow spec without any mechanics...

So you really don't mind the slow ramp-up style which goes down to having one burst every 2-3 mins, and literally do nothing else in between your bursts? And you prefer that over a fast paced style where you have somthing to press all the time?

[Ange]

And you prefer that over a fast paced style where you have somthing to press all the time?

Why would I mind? Its the "GREAT" end of Legion iterration minus tier-bonus.

All it needs is a simple aura buff for all abilitys, since autoattack damage done is insanly high for both DK specs compared to all other melee.

I got a solid 660d /played on my DK, played all specs in all patch variants, can't really say the old iterrations were more fun because you could spam all day long every GCD.

[Saltysquidoon]

Frost has needed help for so long its not funny its issues are really core and old, not to mention basically just borne from laziness and the lack of iteration the spec received in legion was criminal.

Frost needs a new ability (if not two) for the core rotation, the removal of BS when they took out blood flipping (which was a welcome change IMO) with no compensation has left it as a 'brain dead' spec since cata. It doesn't even have to be mechanically or tactically complex just something thematic like obliting an opponent siphons a portion of their soul at X stacks you may unleash a big dick attack (this can be a buff on you to keep frost as the burst spec that can target switch easier).
Just anything to wake you up from oblit off runes, FS not to cap (Frost scythe is huge in that respect but being a talent it not really 'core').

KM as the basis of the spec is terrible, they made it better in legion but that doesn't really make up for the fact that it cannibalises crit and essentially prevent frost DKS from ever scaling with the tiers because they had a dead stat (haste was also historically shocking because dk disease tick rates weren't mediated by it and frost was GCD locked).

Edit: it bears mentioning that in BFA blizzard has been crutching hard on BoS as a cheap band-aid to cover the playstyle issues. Personally i don't like BoS (if i wanted to pool I'd play a rogue) and forcing players to take a talent that changes how a spec plays to cover up issues with the core spec is deceptive and lazy.

I don't see the point of the eternal 2HvDW argument though. 2h Frost was only ever consistently good in pvp for the burst, DW was almost always more consistent and scaled better in pve. in light of that when you consider forcing specs to use a specific weapon type is a cheap easy way to show spec 'diversity' it becomes inevitable the spec with ToT in it was going to be the DW spec.

[Heartlessnobody]

how hard would it be to switch oblit damage from phsy to frost

making Km scale with highest secondary stat

or oblit scaling off the the same thing

downtime on runes is long im told that the 3 group is the best way and i have an idea the runic emp needs to refresh all runes on cooldown not just one

I want the presences back because to me I was more in control of what i could do with my class than just attack attack attack. also unholy pres + Wod DA was the best combo than do nothing wrath walk and current Da

its odd that my AA and FF are doing almost the same damage as my abilities. why couldn't they added more stuff from the artifact than just bringing over two talents

[Zeernial]

Actually it was more of an AoE vs ST situation, where 2H was exceeding in ST and DW in AoE.

But yeah, playing Frost DK is currently way too boring. Or any other spec or class for that matter, simply due to the ridiculous GCD length. I still cannot comprehend how it's possible to have such masterminds at Blizz - the ones who came up with this, and the ones who thought it was a good idea.

Regardless of the situation, in WotLK, DW was always better than 2H, even if 2H had shadowmourne.

2H had burst but after that you had 0 killing machine procs and the talents lined up better for DW...