Would you raid/dungeon without TF/WF

[Gaidax]

I would raid either way.

Though without TF not HC then, because it would be useless.

[Mokuna]

The best point was probably wod, you could warforge for 6 more ilvl, have a socket or both, enough to keep you entertained through farm and not have stupid situations

[LuminaL]

where is the "I dont care about it" option? because I dont care about having tf/wf ,I dont get OCD over some extra iLVL because im not a min/maxer, I just play until I get good enough gears, not the best there is. never felt good to burn myself in a game then get tired and quit playing that game.

[Lenion]

Is this a serious question? I hate TF WF with BIG PASSION

[PrairieChicken]

TF is a cancer and should be removed.

[Jaigar]

I don't think people understand their own motivations for raiding. I would have said that I would keep raiding without TF/WF, but its not that simple.

First, if you wanted WF/TF going away, you'd have to reduce raid gear drops by 30-50%. Otherwise people would get their BiS far too quickly which cuts into a big motivator factor.

Back in Wrath, I put up with so much nonsense in raid. Loot was enough to make it worth dealing with all the drama. But the moment I got my heroic DFO, I just lost all interest in continuing raiding. Everything else was minute upgrades and it wasn't worth the headache. I ended up quitting WoW for over 5 years. The guild was having problems and there was no hope of progressing past heroic Sindragosa and continuing to dump hours without any meaningful progression.

I was fine with WFing in HFC as it offered a little boost in farm content, but the sockets+TF that came in Legion were just too much.

[Xath]

You realize you have just given an argument for stripping M raiding out of the game, right? Because if a 415 feels bad, how does a 400 feel? Or a 385?

If you respond "they should be happy getting what they're getting", then I'll throw that statement right back at you about 415s.

Do the content if you want the loot. Content is what pushed a lot of people to get better prior to lfr being added because you weren't going to do the current raid without being at least somewhat competent. Now you just wait for lfr if you want to see the story. The whole idea of having to clear everything each week was a huge factor in me quitting. I want to get my bis and then log compete, hard to have an even competition with titanforging and random gemslots even stuff like leech can be big in pushing keys.

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And therein lies the problem. Just because he is experienced at the game doesn't mean he has the analytical skills necessary to be having this conversation. And his entire argument just demonstrates this.

It's all about how he hates WF/TF and that if other people can't see why it's a big problem, we're just scrubs or entitled brats. Yet when it comes to putting together an actual argument...nothing. Yeah, I get it. He's not enjoying WF/TF. But maybe, just maybe, if he stopped being so stubborn and arrogant he'd recognise where the real problem lay.

Yeah it's not like subs have been in freefall since blizz started pushing f2p gacha ideals into the game like turning every loot opportunity into a freaking loot box.

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Whether you liked the TBC/Wotlk gear model or not (its subjective after all) I feel like it was definitely more beneficial for raid loggers than people like myself who played on a daily basis. I don't think you can go back to it without completely killing the m+ scene (a lot of players wouldn't keep doing keys if they got all their bis items with no chance of upgrade at all) so I think some element of RNG is needed. TF/WF just has to be kept in line somewhat because an insanely high TF isn't good for the system, but no chance of upgrade at all isn't good either.

The issue I always felt with the old gearing system was I spent long periods of time during both WotLK and Cata really bored between raids because there was no worthwhile content and getting the gear you needed was like a check mark list and once you got the gear you didn't have much more to build towards, which resulted in a lot of time playing alts. Now, for good / or / bad I know I can always get a potential upgrade so I can play my main every day and still have something to work towards. I prefer that but I'm cool with people who don't like it.

Most extremely high level m+ players are pushing keys because it's fun and to compete. If they could get bis it would make it even more competitive since everyone would have the same gear.

[MrKnubbles]

where is the "I dont care about it" option? because I dont care about having tf/wf ,I dont get OCD over some extra iLVL because im not a min/maxer, I just play until I get good enough gears, not the best there is. never felt good to burn myself in a game then get tired and quit playing that game.

Exactly! People get upset when their item doesn't Titanforge. I'm just happy to get an upgrade, even if it's only a 5 ilvl difference from what I have equipped. When you expect something great that has such a low chance to occur, you will be let down a lot but when you don't expect it, you're happy when it happens!

[Raelbo]

Do the content if you want the loot. Content is what pushed a lot of people to get better prior to lfr being added because you weren't going to do the current raid without being at least somewhat competent.

Seeing content is certainly a part of the motivation to get people into raiding. But it's not what keeps people raiding. What keeps people raiding is that innate drive that some of us have to push ourselves, and to overcome challenges. For some people it goes beyond that and taps into the basic desire to compete and win by pitting ourselves against other players (which is exactly what the world first race is all about).

So I would say that you argument which is essentially that LFR resulted in people no longer participating in harder raid formats is false. Since the things that keep raiders in raiding aren't in LFR, raiders who enjoy raiding aren't going to quit raiding because of LFR. People quit raiding because they either don't enjoy it, or because they cannot make the committment necessary (could be due to career, relationship, children, even taking up new interests that use up time formerly devoted to WoW). And the fact that some of those people might land up in LFR doesn't mean that they would've continued raiding without LFR - it means that they would have stopped doing any raiding at all without LFR.

The whole idea of having to clear everything each week was a huge factor in me quitting.

You don't have to clear everything. You can clear everything, but really you should only be doing so if you enjoy it. Clearly you were doing something very, very wrong if your obsession drove you to quit.

I want to get my bis and then log compete, hard to have an even competition with titanforging and random gemslots even stuff like leech can be big in pushing keys.

What you're really saying is that you want to be able to have an even competition with people who are willing and able to put more effort into the game than you are by effectively placing a cap on the rewards they can get based on the effort you're willing to put in. That's not really a reasonable expectation, sorry.

Yeah it's not like subs have been in freefall since blizz started pushing f2p gacha ideals into the game like turning every loot opportunity into a freaking loot box.

Subs have been falling on an exponential decaying curve ever since WotLK. If anything the continual efforts by Blizzard to adapt and evolve the game are a response to try and reduce sub losses, not the cause.

Your assertion is a bit like arguing that heart medication causes people to die because people who go on to heart medication tend to end up dying of heart problems

Most extremely high level m+ players are pushing keys because it's fun and to compete. If they could get bis it would make it even more competitive since everyone would have the same gear.

During MoP and WoD this is exactly how it worked. But Blizzard decided that the idea of capping gear just wasn't fun. The change to M+ was done specifically to allow players to keep on improving their scores by means of gear progression.

Now, whether you're right or wrong that the old model of capping gear was better, what should be pretty clear is that the issue actually has nothing to do with WF/TF, but rather about the philosophy of wanting to allow continuous gear progression. Blizzard could very easily implement Challenge Modes exactly as they did before and it should achieve exactly the kind of competition you're talking about. I suspect the reason they wouldn't do that is that they believe that such a format would be considerably less popular than M+. Either way though, the problem isn't WF/TF.

[Xath]

Seeing content is certainly a part of the motivation to get people into raiding. But it's not what keeps people raiding. What keeps people raiding is that innate drive that some of us have to push ourselves, and to overcome challenges. For some people it goes beyond that and taps into the basic desire to compete and win by pitting ourselves against other players (which is exactly what the world first race is all about).

So I would say that you argument which is essentially that LFR resulted in people no longer participating in harder raid formats is false. Since the things that keep raiders in raiding aren't in LFR, raiders who enjoy raiding aren't going to quit raiding because of LFR. People quit raiding because they either don't enjoy it, or because they cannot make the committment necessary (could be due to career, relationship, children, even taking up new interests that use up time formerly devoted to WoW). And the fact that some of those people might land up in LFR doesn't mean that they would've continued raiding without LFR - it means that they would have stopped doing any raiding at all without LFR.




You don't have to clear everything. You can clear everything, but really you should only be doing so if you enjoy it. Clearly you were doing something very, very wrong if your obsession drove you to quit.



What you're really saying is that you want to be able to have an even competition with people who are willing and able to put more effort into the game than you are by effectively placing a cap on the rewards they can get based on the effort you're willing to put in. That's not really a reasonable expectation, sorry.



Subs have been falling on an exponential decaying curve ever since WotLK. If anything the continual efforts by Blizzard to adapt and evolve the game are a response to try and reduce sub losses, not the cause.

Your assertion is a bit like arguing that heart medication causes people to die because people who go on to heart medication tend to end up dying of heart problems



During MoP and WoD this is exactly how it worked. But Blizzard decided that the idea of capping gear just wasn't fun. The change to M+ was done specifically to allow players to keep on improving their scores by means of gear progression.

Now, whether you're right or wrong that the old model of capping gear was better, what should be pretty clear is that the issue actually has nothing to do with WF/TF, but rather about the philosophy of wanting to allow continuous gear progression. Blizzard could very easily implement Challenge Modes exactly as they did before and it should achieve exactly the kind of competition you're talking about. I suspect the reason they wouldn't do that is that they believe that such a format would be considerably less popular than M+. Either way though, the problem isn't WF/TF.

Lol it has little to do with how much effort you put in. You can clear M+ every day and unless you get lucky have zero 425 socketed pieces. The only one I got before I quit was on my third alt that had only done weekly chests while I had done several hundred on my warrior at that point. In fact getting that piece was a large part of why I decided to say to hell with the game.

Blizzard's choices as to what is fun and what is not show a disturbing similarity to the thought patterns followed by gacha developers with a tiny chance at something good every so often to get you to keep logging in and spending money. The old philosophy was better even people like Max who literally stream the game for a living show consistent distaste with all non competitive areas. The MDI is actually balanced with everyone having equal gear once they are on the tourney server.

Also yes a huge part of the problem is forging and it is one of the biggest examples of the gacha style game design that has infiltrated wow as of late.

[Raelbo]

Lol it has little to do with how much effort you put in.

When someone says something like this (prefaced with a "lol") it just tells me that said person has zero clue.

The quality of your gear is going to be directly proportional to the effort you put in. I am not saying luck plays no part in the equation, but it's a relatively minor factor compared to effort.

You can clear M+ every day and unless you get lucky have zero 425 socketed pieces.

The number of 425 socketed pieces you possess is a very poor inidicator of the quality of your gear. A true measure of the quality of your gear is your ilevel + the number of sockets. That's really the crux of the problem with your argument (well it's not really yours, it's more a generic, often rehashed argument used by people, it seems, incapable of coming up with their own) - it focuses on the single item while ignoring that gearing is about the total effect of 16 items.

Blizzard's choices as to what is fun and what is not show a disturbing similarity to the thought patterns followed by gacha developers with a tiny chance at something good every so often to get you to keep logging in and spending money.

This is simply a case of you choosing to see what you want to see in order to support your narrative. Personally I prefer to analyse the system to figure out what the intent was. And it's really, really simple:

WF/TF is a mechanism designed to reward people for playing the content they enjoy doing. The problem is players who don't understand that you don't need to do everything in the pursuit of getting the best gear possible because getting the best gear possible isn't necessary.

It's quite clear from what you've been saying that your problem is that you lack the ability to self moderate, but instead of recognising that, you blame the game for allowing you to play to the point of burnout. You're like a person at an eat-all-you-want buffet who doesn't know when he's had enough and then blames the buffet when you become sick from overeating.

[Battlebeard]

I still do a little raid sometimes, but never M+. One of the reasons I don't try to do it more is this stupid WF/TF.

The motivation to "finish" a raid, meaning getting the best gear, was very motivating back in the day. Now you can never really be done and it feels so lame to raid something just to have a very small chance to improve, and very demotivating to never have that realistic goal to be done.

But Blizzard figure they give us as much things as possible to keep playing the game. This is a good example, another is Paragon rewards from WQs. They don't realize that most of us HATE these kind of things. To have goals you can realisitcally complete is what keeps players, even after they complete them. These never ending grinds scare people away. Many Blizzard employers needs to be fired, they are doing the opposite of what's good for the game.