1. #1

    [Shadow] What to do when an VB/MB cooldown ends in less than 1.5secs

    Am I suppose to fill those gap with Mind Flay, thus delay the VB/MB case by may be 1sec or so due to GCD. Or am I suppose to just do nothing and wait to cast VB/MB as soon as they are available?

    The priority list of Icy Vein and other sites mentions nothing about this, they only say use Mind Flay to fill, and interrupt it whenever VB/MB come off cooldown. Which is all good if the cooldown remaining on MB/VB is more than 1.5secs, but if the cooldown remaining is shorter than that, I end up delaying the cast due to GCD, no matter how much I spam click.

    So...what am I suppose to do here? Do nothing and wait, or Mind Flay away?

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by nothingsjim View Post
    Am I suppose to fill those gap with Mind Flay, thus delay the VB/MB case by may be 1sec or so due to GCD. Or am I suppose to just do nothing and wait to cast VB/MB as soon as they are available?

    The priority list of Icy Vein and other sites mentions nothing about this, they only say use Mind Flay to fill, and interrupt it whenever VB/MB come off cooldown. Which is all good if the cooldown remaining on MB/VB is more than 1.5secs, but if the cooldown remaining is shorter than that, I end up delaying the cast due to GCD, no matter how much I spam click.

    So...what am I suppose to do here? Do nothing and wait, or Mind Flay away?
    First of all forget about mb, go for void.
    Scenario#1. your insanity is high, both sw:void and void bolt are on cooldown, so you're channelling mf ( or ms, depends what traits/procs you have active ), void bolt comes off a a cooldown and you insta use it, but then you realize you have this 1 second gap before sw:void charge comes back on - generally speaking, not the way to go
    Scenario#2. everything is the same, except you insanity is very low and you're about to drop voidform - you don't finish channelling, use void bolt as soon as it becomes available, just to maintain voidform for as long as mechanically possible

    Bottom line is, you obviously want to maximize void bolt/sw:void cast count, but you have to pay attention to both cooldowns, don't stop channelling as soon as one becomes available if there's still 2 seconds left for another one to come off of a cooldown ( UNLESS YOU'RE ABOUT TO DROP VOIDFORM )

  3. #3
    it doesnt matter what you do

    2 globals > voidbolt

  4. #4
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Darnassus
    Posts
    11,295
    Recommended options are:

    VB -> SW:V -> SW:V > VB

    VB -> SW:V -> Pain -> VB

    VB -> MF -> VB

    VB -> MS -> VB

    VB -> VT -> Pain -> VB

    VB -> SW:V -> PW:S -> VB

    VB -> SW:V -> SW: D -> VB


    The one that feels terrible, yet makes the most sense, is: VB -> SW:V -> MF -> VB.
    You want to avoid that one as best you can, do it only if you have to - try to plan ahead so you won't need to.

    But yea, the clashing GCD's of VB & MB is pretty much the worst designed thing I've ever seen in Shadow, maybe in all of WoW.
    SW:V helps to fix it, which makes SW:V mandatory without question. It also means they know and understand the problem and are doing nothing to address it.
    Youtube ~ Yvaelle ~ Twitter

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    But yea, the clashing GCD's of VB & MB is pretty much the worst designed thing I've ever seen in Shadow, maybe in all of WoW.
    SW:V helps to fix it, which makes SW:V mandatory without question. It also means they know and understand the problem and are doing nothing to address it.
    Eh, Shadow's always had some kind of weird mechanic that makes the spec not feel ~right~. I'll take two GCDs not lining up properly over the absolutely garbage SOrbs mechanic from MoP/WoD any day of the week.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    Eh, Shadow's always had some kind of weird mechanic that makes the spec not feel ~right~.
    It was quite simple before neo-wow.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    Recommended options are:

    VB -> SW:V -> SW:V > VB

    VB -> SW:V -> Pain -> VB

    VB -> MF -> VB

    VB -> MS -> VB

    VB -> VT -> Pain -> VB

    VB -> SW:V -> PW:S -> VB

    VB -> SW:V -> SW: D -> VB


    The one that feels terrible, yet makes the most sense, is: VB -> SW:V -> MF -> VB.
    You want to avoid that one as best you can, do it only if you have to - try to plan ahead so you won't need to.


    But yea, the clashing GCD's of VB & MB is pretty much the worst designed thing I've ever seen in Shadow, maybe in all of WoW.
    SW:V helps to fix it, which makes SW:V mandatory without question. It also means they know and understand the problem and are doing nothing to address it.
    Why would you avoid VB -> SW:V -> MF -> VB? That's the combination you will be casting the vast majority of the time (or MF before SW:V, it makes zero difference).

    It really doesn't matter which two spells you are casting inbetween VB casts, the important thing is that it's always 2 GCDs.

    The CD of VB is always 3 GCDs, resulting in 2 GCDs to cast different spells in between. VT casttime is always 1 GCD, so is MB/SW:V, 2 ticks of MF is always 1 GCD. The only time this changes is between 100% and 140% Haste, because the GCD stops scaling with Haste at 100%, while the VB CD keeps scaling, resulting in a VB - filler - VB rotation at around 140% Haste.

    You still cast spells for 2 GCDs between 100% and 140% Haste though. Yes, it delays VB slightly, but casting nothing is way worse. You will never reach 140% Haste with current gear lvls. It was possible during Uldir with Hero, Fuse AND Berserking, because you also had like 1000 extra Haste from having a maxed Reorigination Array.
    Last edited by ThrashMetalFtw; 2019-03-11 at 03:55 PM.
    They're (short for They are) describes a group of people. "They're/They are a nice bunch of guys." Their indicates that something belongs/is related to a group of people. "Their car was all out of fuel." There refers to a location. "Let's set up camp over there." There is also no such thing as "could/should OF". The correct way is: Could/should'VE, or could/should HAVE.
    Holyfury armory

  8. #8
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Darnassus
    Posts
    11,295
    Quote Originally Posted by ThrashMetalFtw View Post
    Why would you avoid VB -> SW:V -> MF -> VB? That's the combination you will be casting the vast majority of the time (or MF before SW:V, it makes zero difference).
    All the options I listed were ways to cast 2 GCDs between each VB, without encountering the dreaded:

    VB -> SW:V -> MF (cancelled) -> VB

    The issue is that the above doesn't feel good to play.

    I was suggesting that with a little innovation, you can cast a lot of other combos and almost never need to cast it, by trying out all the other combos I listed.
    Youtube ~ Yvaelle ~ Twitter

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    All the options I listed were ways to cast 2 GCDs between each VB, without encountering the dreaded:

    VB -> SW:V -> MF (cancelled) -> VB

    The issue is that the above doesn't feel good to play.

    I was suggesting that with a little innovation, you can cast a lot of other combos and almost never need to cast it, by trying out all the other combos I listed.
    Why doesn't it feel good to play? We have been cancelling MF casts in favour of everything else since the moment Cata hit. It's not like you are losing anything. The cast is cancelled exactly as your 2nd tick hits. It doesn't feel any different than MB - SW, or any other "2 GCD combination of spells".

    Yes I know that all the other options are valid, I just don't see why you would avoid the one mentioned above, as that's the one you will be casting the vast majority of the time, at least on ST. All the other options are extremely niche, and some don't even happen at all with the current meta (SW doesn't exist as long as we have access to 6 traits and Spiteful Apparitions in its current form).

    Sequences of double SW:V casts and full 2 GCD MF channels is a Dps loss, since having SW:V on 2 charges will reduce the amount of overall casts over an entire fight. You will also probably fall out of VF a handful of stacks earlier, because of the lack of SW:V casts at the end of your VF. PW:S is only really a thing if you are going to be hardmoving a long distance (not stutterstepping). Refreshing DoTs requires you have to have valid targets that need to be dotted/refreshed. Mind Sear requires 2 targets within range.


    I suggest people post these kind of questions on the Shadow Discord instead. The MMO-champ forums have been full of outdated info or outright missinformation since the majority of the major theorycrafters abandoned these forums and the H2P forums both in favour of the new Shadow Discord in early Legion. It's sad, since this channel used to be very active and full of good info in the period from Cata to the end of WoD.
    They're (short for They are) describes a group of people. "They're/They are a nice bunch of guys." Their indicates that something belongs/is related to a group of people. "Their car was all out of fuel." There refers to a location. "Let's set up camp over there." There is also no such thing as "could/should OF". The correct way is: Could/should'VE, or could/should HAVE.
    Holyfury armory

  10. #10
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Darnassus
    Posts
    11,295
    Quote Originally Posted by ThrashMetalFtw View Post
    Why doesn't it feel good to play?
    Why do you think people ask if they should be doing it? Because it doesn't feel right.

    We have been cancelling MF casts in favour of everything else since the moment Cata hit.
    It was a DPS gain in Vanilla, TBC, and WotLK too.

    It doesn't feel any different than MB - SW, or any other "2 GCD combination of spells".
    It does feel different. Qualitative experiences are subjective, but the widely held negative experience is still a valid criticism of Shadow.

    Yes I know that all the other options are valid, I just don't see why you would avoid the one mentioned above,
    Because it doesn't feel nice, and with ~no DPS loss you can avoid the negative experience (single GCD flay clips) by incorporating the other combos I listed into your repertoire more often.

    as that's the one you will be casting the vast majority of the time, at least on ST. All the other options are extremely niche, and some don't even happen at all with the current meta (SW doesn't exist as long as we have access to 6 traits and Spiteful Apparitions in its current form).
    Not everyone has optimal double traits, and some people use SW for feel.

    Sequences of double SW:V casts and full 2 GCD MF channels is a Dps loss, since having SW:V on 2 charges will reduce the amount of overall casts over an entire fight.
    I feel like you are being difficult for the sake of being difficult here. You can float 1x SW:V up until one GCD before you are sitting on double SW:V charges. 2 GCD MF's are not a DPS loss until you cap 2 SW:V charges.

    You will also probably fall out of VF a handful of stacks earlier, because of the lack of SW:V casts at the end of your VF.
    Only if you are sitting on 2 SW:V charges, which nobody is suggesting you do, and I'm pretty sure you know that: so you're attacking a straw man here.

    PW:S is only really a thing if you are going to be hardmoving a long distance (not stutterstepping). Refreshing DoTs requires you have to have valid targets that need to be dotted/refreshed. Mind Sear requires 2 targets within range.
    Do you only fight target dummies? The rest of us move distances during combat, refresh DoTs occasionally, and fight more than a single target sometimes.

    I suggest people post these kind of questions on the Shadow Discord instead.
    One medium doesn't diminish the other. Worse, relying on only one medium puts a community at risk.
    People should use the Shadow Discord. But when the Shadow Discord dies in a year and the community moves on to the next thing, you can always swing by my forum to find out what's hip, and where everyone went lately: I've been here for 10 years without fail.

    The MMO-champ forums have been full of outdated info or outright missinformation
    Nothing I said was outdated or misinformed. You attacked a straw man. I didn't tell him to sit on 2 SW:V charges, which was the only legitimate theorycraft point you made (but was a rebuttal to no one).

    since the majority of the major theorycrafters abandoned these forums
    It's sad, since this channel used to be very active and full of good info in the period from Cata to the end of WoD.
    The majority of major theorycrafters didn't just quit these forums or H2P, they quit WoW, or at least quit Shadow: you won't find the old guard in the Shadow Discord either.

    This is the worst version of Shadow ever, and it won't be changing until next expansion. It's all been said before. Those that remain are all hibernating until next expansion when maybe Shadow is fun again.

    In the meantime, if you don't like how it feels to press VB -> SW:V -> MF -> VB, then avoid it - there are other totally viable VB cycles that are more fun to press.
    Last edited by Yvaelle; 2019-03-11 at 07:54 PM.
    Youtube ~ Yvaelle ~ Twitter

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    This is the worst version of Shadow ever, and it won't be changing until next expansion. It's all been said before. Those that remain are all hibernating until next expansion when maybe Shadow is fun again.
    This version of Shadow is not nearly as shitty as MoP/WoD Shadow. We played like shit and did shit damage that didn't scale at all in both of these expansions. And while I strongly dislike VF as a mechanic, this version of Shadow not only does decent damage but also (imo of course) feels much, much improved over the Legion version of Shadow so that bolded part should be prefaced with YMMV.

  12. #12
    VB asap and don't waste SWV charges. That's about it.
    The way I do it is after VB is simple: IF SWV has a charge then use it, start MF and use VB asap, interrupting the MF. IF SWV doesn't have a charge, MF until VB.

    I don't interrupt MF with SWV. Charges don't get wasted anyway and VB is never delayed.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •