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  1. #321
    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    We cant really compare modern city from today to Wow cities.
    Most cities? No. But Suramar is more advanced in some respects as it's solved its food and convenience issues since they could and did do everything with Arcane.

    Whether the Darkspear were weak compared to the Garrosh Horde or not is irrelevant, they still were the focus of the offensive Hence the name of the entire civil war.
    But they did took controll of most of Durotar and the Barrens. Iron tech was the main obstacle of attacking Ogrimmar.
    No, it wasn't. The Darkspear were effectively suppressed by one battalion of Kor'kron, the only reason they even got out was Thrall's assistance and other rebels, and the parts of Durotar they controlled were effectively uninhabited. Vol'jin flat out admits this when he begs the Robot Cat supervisors to give him resources before Garrosh stomps them. The Darkspear and the tauren for that matter are never depicted as a powerhouse or as capable of standing up to the stronger races alone.

    It's not just Lordaeron, but all the kingdoms, thousands of refugees from Lordaeron followed Jaina to Theremore, and then Stormwind.
    That's the same source of people and they suffer the same number limitations as the famous three orcish ships. Lordaeron in particular is an especially dubious case, since most became either Scourge, Forsaken, Scarlets or Argents.

    The Wota devastated the elves, and we have no idea how much did their population recover.
    Significantly, considering they waged the War of the Satyr and then a war with the Qiraji later on, and were considered wardens of Kalimdor through out this time. There's no situation where 10 years of recovery in one city is sufficient to become a worldpower, whereas 10k years isn't. Elven birth rates are fanfiction.

    Since many Alliance races tend to stay only in their own lands, like the dwarves and night elves it isn't surprising humans have to be the Alliance presence in various zones.
    Same how the orcs are everywhere, the humans alongside the orcs were the foundation of Warcraft, so of course they are going to be the most numerous.
    The difference between orcs and humans is that orcs are perennial whipping boys who've now twice over become second fiddles in their own faction and been shown that they can't go at it alone at numerous situations. Humans on the other hand are the master race, competing in all fronts simultaneously and picking up the slack for dwarves and night elves who should be their superiors.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  2. #322
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    That's the same source of people and they suffer the same number limitations as the famous three orcish ships. Lordaeron in particular is an especially dubious case, since most became either Scourge, Forsaken, Scarlets or Argents.
    Let's not forget plain old dead.

  3. #323
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Most cities? No. But Suramar is more advanced in some respects as it's solved its food and convenience issues since they could and did do everything with Arcane.
    Still, Suramar hadn't changed much since the Wota, 10000 years with no significant changes.

    No, it wasn't. The Darkspear were effectively suppressed by one battalion of Kor'kron, the only reason they even got out was Thrall's assistance and other rebels, and the parts of Durotar they controlled were effectively uninhabited. Vol'jin flat out admits this when he begs the Robot Cat supervisors to give him resources before Garrosh stomps them. The Darkspear and the tauren for that matter are never depicted as a powerhouse or as capable of standing up to the stronger races alone.
    They took Razor hill and the entire Barens, both of which was guarded by the elite Korkon, as well as fending of an army sent by Garrosh. The only area Garrosh controlled at the end of 5.3 was Ogrimmar and the docks. Of course they were far weaker when they invaded Ogrimmar than Garrosh due to his machines and Ogrimmar defensive upgrade by the goblins, but they did sperheaded the campgain that took most of his lands. So its not like they never were at the front instead of just being a supportive race.


    That's the same source of people and they suffer the same number limitations as the famous three orcish ships. Lordaeron in particular is an especially dubious case, since most became either Scourge, Forsaken, Scarlets or Argents.
    What do you mean by the same number limitations? All we know she took as much as she could before Arthas attacked.

    Significantly, considering they waged the War of the Satyr and then a war with the Qiraji later on, and were considered wardens of Kalimdor through out this time. There's no situation where 10 years of recovery in one city is sufficient to become a worldpower, whereas 10k years isn't. Elven birth rates are fanfiction.
    Lets say they did, and they prob were stronger than the pre cata Stormwind, but just because they joined the Alliance doesn't mean they were suddenly far weaker.

    As for the birth rates, the elves would have been crawling all over the world if they reproduced like humans and orcs, their lower birth rates are either due to nature of their race or because they werent in a hurry to reproduce given their long lifes.


    The difference between orcs and humans is that orcs are perennial whipping boys who've now twice over become second fiddles in their own faction and been shown that they can't go at it alone at numerous situations. Humans on the other hand are the master race, competing in all fronts simultaneously and picking up the slack for dwarves and night elves who should be their superiors.
    Being a whipping boy or not makes no diffrience when we are talking about just numbers. Humans are everywhere because they were the foundation of the game alongside the orcs. And as I said other races like the Night elves and dwarves mainly stood in one place, its a common fantasy trope, dwarves being mostly in the mountains mining and drinking and wood elves in the forests connecting with nature.
    Last edited by ausoin; 2019-03-10 at 10:33 PM.

  4. #324
    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    Not according to Mehrunes, to him the Horde would have ruled the universe if it wasn't for that Alliance plot armor.
    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    I agree, but saying only one side suffers from this like he does is just nonsense.
    Now try to quote me on those things. Oh, that's right, you can't. It's just you ran out of arguments so you're making shit up to discredit me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Slant is an extremist, willing to sacrifice the lives of everyone to keep his wet dream of the EU alive.
    You shouldn't support people like him, it's like supporting ISIS.

  5. #325
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Now try to quote me on those things. Oh, that's right, you can't. It's just you ran out of arguments so you're making shit up to discredit me.
    You refuse the accept the fact both sides suffer from pulling numbers out of their asses,you seem to pretend that only apllies to the Alliance.
    Last edited by ausoin; 2019-03-10 at 10:04 PM.

  6. #326
    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    Still, Suramar hadn't changed much since the Wota, 10000 years with no significant changes.
    Oh, yes, it was all the same, extremely stable, with all natural needs met, so steady growth would have happened. Even a very low birthrate would've stacked up when everyone is immortal and no one dies to attrition.

    They took Razor hill and the entire Barens, both of which was guarded by the elite Korkon, as well as fending of an army sent by Garrosh. The only area Garrosh controlled at the end of 5.3 was Ogrimmar and the docks. Of course they were far weaker when they invaded Ogrimmar than Garrosh due to his machines and Ogrimmar defensive upgrade by the goblins, but they did sperheaded the campgain that took most of his lands. So its not like they never were at the front instead of just being a supportive race.
    I think you're really misreading the situation. Vol'jin flat out admits to the Alliance PC that he can't win or hold out without their assistance when prompted, and so enlists their aid in keeping him up. Vol'jin was maintained by proxy forces throughout. We see what happens when he doesn't have them immediately before when, as said, his home is effectively suppressed by a single group of Kor'kron. In terms of controlling the Barrens, they were contested in 5.3, and 5.4 isn't a case of conquest, it's Garrosh deliberately withdrawing to Orgrimmar. He flat out says he's counting on it.

    But in any case, this is a weird argument, because spearheading one campaign where they needed foreign aid and visibly couldn't succeed on their own is nothing compared to the near constant human involvement. Which is par for the course for a second tier race.

    Lets say they did, and they prob were stronger than the pre cata Stormwind, but just because they joined the Alliance doesn't mean they were suddenly far weaker.

    As for the birth rates, the elves would have been crawling all over the world if they reproduced like humans and orcs, their lower birth rates are either due to nature of their race or because they werent in a hurry to reproduce given their long lifes.
    What I'm saying is that we have no evidence suggesting that elves have a massively lower birth rate, and even if they did it would be an irrelevant argument given that the night elves went through less in WC3 than Stormwind did in the stretch between the Gnoll War, the Gurubashi War and the First War, all near defeats except the last which got them sacked and slaughtered. On top of this, we know that elves mature at the same speed as humans up to 20 from Edge of Night.

    Being a whipping boy or not makes no diffrience when we are talking about just numbers. Humans are everywhere because they were the foundation of the game alongside the orcs. And as I said other races like the Night elves and dwarves mainly stood in one place, its a common fantasy trope, dwarves being mostly in the mountains mining and drinking and wood elves in the forests connecting with nature.
    Humans being everywhere, much like orcs being everywhere, is not the problem. It's that the orcs are shown as requiring allied support, suffer relevant losses, have had their cast slaughtered over and over again and are in a faction with races who also have low population numbers. The human hegemony is nonsensical in all regards, from their numbers relative to more populous races to their performance, i.e superior to other races in all regards.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  7. #327
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Oh, yes, it was all the same, extremely stable, with all natural needs met, so steady growth would have happened. Even a very low birthrate would've stacked up when everyone is immortal and no one dies to attrition.



    I think you're really misreading the situation. Vol'jin flat out admits to the Alliance PC that he can't win or hold out without their assistance when prompted, and so enlists their aid in keeping him up. Vol'jin was maintained by proxy forces throughout. We see what happens when he doesn't have them immediately before when, as said, his home is effectively suppressed by a single group of Kor'kron. In terms of controlling the Barrens, they were contested in 5.3, and 5.4 isn't a case of conquest, it's Garrosh deliberately withdrawing to Orgrimmar. He flat out says he's counting on it.

    But in any case, this is a weird argument, because spearheading one campaign where they needed foreign aid and visibly couldn't succeed on their own is nothing compared to the near constant human involvement. Which is par for the course for a second tier race.



    What I'm saying is that we have no evidence suggesting that elves have a massively lower birth rate, and even if they did it would be an irrelevant argument given that the night elves went through less in WC3 than Stormwind did in the stretch between the Gnoll War, the Gurubashi War and the First War, all near defeats except the last which got them sacked and slaughtered. On top of this, we know that elves mature at the same speed as humans up to 20 from Edge of Night.



    Humans being everywhere, much like orcs being everywhere, is not the problem. It's that the orcs are shown as requiring allied support, suffer relevant losses, have had their cast slaughtered over and over again and are in a faction with races who also have low population numbers. The human hegemony is nonsensical in all regards, from their numbers relative to more populous races to their performance, i.e superior to other races in all regards.
    Steady growth that was limited to one city ,and when the Legion came it undone much of that.

    The topic of trolls all comes down to the point they shouldnt have the numbers for campgains such as the rebellion since they are lorewise a small tribe who were almost destroyed by the murlocs. They should be lower in number then the High elves. I mean if there was an Alliance civil war can you imagine high elves leading the charge in Elwyn forest and Westfall and being the first to arrive and attack the gates of Stormwind?

    According to Veressa her having twins is a miracle for a elf, and that elves dont have many children, now whether that is because they dont want to or simply cant is a another story. If they had the same birth rates as humans the world would have gotten overpopulated real soon.

    Most humans are not superior warriors or mages or better at stealth, only a select few humans excelled at something. Never was a common human soldier or mage presented as superior.
    Last edited by ausoin; 2019-03-10 at 11:50 PM.

  8. #328
    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    Steady growth that was limited to one city ,and when the Legion came it undone much of that.
    This is true, but the thing is it had the capacity for population and the portrayal fits with how Nightborne have been shown - a supporting force.

    The topic of trolls all comes down to the point they shouldnt have the numbers for campgains such as the rebellion since they are lorewise a small tribe who were almost destroyed by the murlocs. They should be lower in number then the High elves. I mean if there was an Alliance civil war can you imagine high elves leading the charge in Elwyn forest and Westfall and being the first to arrive and attack the gates of Stormwind?
    That's what I'm illustrating. The trolls empathically didn't. Garrosh had already stomped them off-screen both in Orgrimmar and the Echo Isles. It was only with his forces tied up in Pandaria and with foreign support that they were able to accomplish something. There is little discrepancy between what we know of them and their general success.

    According to Veressa her having twins is a miracle for a elf, and that elves dont have many children, now whether that is because they dont want to or simply cant is a another story. If they had the same birth rates as humans the world would have gotten overpopulated real soon.
    They don't need to have the same birthrate, though I'm actually buying the idea that elves are pretty fecund, considering that a fraction of Kael'thas's army, who were at most 10% of the blood elves per the sources we have number in the thousands, and the Alliance are devastated when they lose some thousands at the Wrathgate. Ditto with the Nightborne flinging tons of troops at that caster fortress.

    Most humans are not superior warriors or mages or better at stealth, only a select few humans excelled at something. Never was a common human soldier or mage presented as superior.
    Maybe early on this was the case, but at latest WoD it's in full effect. The Horde need to add ask the Kirin Tor to help them build an arcane sanctum, you know, the thing that elves invented and the Kirin Tor are considered the go-to default mage group despite being basically one city that was already destroyed composed of the elf equivalent of weeaboos.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  9. #329
    It's a fucking sea shanty by the country in question. So it's going to be biased as hell.

    Why is the community so terrible at reading the most basic form of storytelling? And it's always a big excuse to have an argument with meta knowledge, when the people who wrote the damn thing (in-universe) didn't have that same information.

  10. #330
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    This is true, but the thing is it had the capacity for population and the portrayal fits with how Nightborne have been shown - a supporting force.
    A population that already existed. They didn't really have much room for growth beyond what was already there.

  11. #331
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakir View Post
    Why is the community so terrible at reading the most basic form of storytelling?
    It say Horde bad, IT BAD!

  12. #332
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    This is true, but the thing is it had the capacity for population and the portrayal fits with how Nightborne have been shown - a supporting force.



    That's what I'm illustrating. The trolls empathically didn't. Garrosh had already stomped them off-screen both in Orgrimmar and the Echo Isles. It was only with his forces tied up in Pandaria and with foreign support that they were able to accomplish something. There is little discrepancy between what we know of them and their general success.



    They don't need to have the same birthrate, though I'm actually buying the idea that elves are pretty fecund, considering that a fraction of Kael'thas's army, who were at most 10% of the blood elves per the sources we have number in the thousands, and the Alliance are devastated when they lose some thousands at the Wrathgate. Ditto with the Nightborne flinging tons of troops at that caster fortress.



    Maybe early on this was the case, but at latest WoD it's in full effect. The Horde need to add ask the Kirin Tor to help them build an arcane sanctum, you know, the thing that elves invented and the Kirin Tor are considered the go-to default mage group despite being basically one city that was already destroyed composed of the elf equivalent of weeaboos.
    Capacity for what population? It had for the one it started with.

    As I said imagine if the high elves attacked the gates of Stormwind and took all the lands beyond Stormwinds city like the trolls did.

    The Alliance lost 50000 soldiers in Nothrend, meaning they had more than 50000 soldiers deployed. Lossing 5000 its not that dealbreaking.


    What arcane sanctum are you referring to? Besides its not like there arent elven mages in Dalaran.
    That alone means humans are better warriors, rogues and mages? Just because of that?

  13. #333
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Oh, yes, it was all the same, extremely stable, with all natural needs met, so steady growth would have happened. Even a very low birthrate would've stacked up when everyone is immortal and no one dies to attrition.
    Have you been to Suramar? They exile people to death by withering left and right and there was a significant underclass that was suffering long before the Legion invasion. That's what kept their population "stable"

  14. #334
    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    Capacity for what population? It had for the one it started with.
    @huth

    There's no suggestion that Suramar was at maximum capacity when the dome went up. We even see children in the city and the noble families and commoners alike clearly have them. On top of this, as @Nymrohd mentions, they had enough spare population to exile to populate leper colonies across all of Suramar including a giant sinkhole filled entirely with them, every canal of their magical system and most of their up world ruins. I question the characterization of this being out of any draconian motive though. While there was an underclass before the shield went down, it was also post-scarcity, it had endless food and what have you, rationing was only introduced after that as a control measure, hence the popular opinion turning against it.
    @ausoin

    Your high elf comparison doesn't fly, because as had been told many times already, not only had we already been shown the Darkspear being stomped on their own, not only do they explicitly state their own inability to contest the region alone and later their inability to even so much as breach the city alone, but they are always backed, be it by the most powerful shaman in existence, Alliance resources or other races. Garrosh makes a deliberate choice to hole himself up in Orgrimmar because not just the trolls and tauren but the entire world is coming after him, by Vol'jin's own words, if Garrosh did attack them without foreign backing, he'd stomp them.

    As for the Wrathgate, my point is not that the humans were more affected, but that if elven renegades can push thousands of troops and the bulk of the elves were still elsewhere, then that suggests a large population, not a small one. There's not one reference in canon about elven birth rates, this is pure fanfiction.

    Finally, having to search for a high elf within the Kirin Tor to make your arcane sanctum and relying on Jaina to allow you in, when you have the people who invented it is laughable. Almost as laughable as all the most powerful mages except Azshara being humans who vastly outclass not one but two 10k year old magical civilizations, having the mage order hall be a secret human organisation, or the elves selling the symbol of elven royalty so that some jackass can plead for his apartment back.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  15. #335
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    @huth
    There's no suggestion that Suramar was at maximum capacity when the dome went up. We even see children in the city and the noble families and commoners alike clearly have them. On top of this, as @Nymrohd mentions, they had enough spare population to exile to populate leper colonies across all of Suramar including a giant sinkhole filled entirely with them, every canal of their magical system and most of their up world ruins. I question the characterization of this being out of any draconian motive though. While there was an underclass before the shield went down, it was also post-scarcity, it had endless food and what have you, rationing was only introduced after that as a control measure, hence the popular opinion turning against it.
    @ausoin
    Suramar was the jewel of the NE society, and we can see it was packed with people in the flashback, the most beautiful city of the empire with the population that only makes up half or so of its capacity in the city? Doesn't sounds logical.

    Your high elf comparison doesn't fly, because as had been told many times already, not only had we already been shown the Darkspear being stomped on their own, not only do they explicitly state their own inability to contest the region alone and later their inability to even so much as breach the city alone, but they are always backed, be it by the most powerful shaman in existence, Alliance resources or other races. Garrosh makes a deliberate choice to hole himself up in Orgrimmar because not just the trolls and tauren but the entire world is coming after him, by Vol'jin's own words, if Garrosh did attack them without foreign backing, he'd stomp them.
    And the High elves would have lost on their own as well, I'm just saying imagine them taking Elwyn forest and Westfall from the 7th Legion and be among the first to attack Stormwind.

    As for the Wrathgate, my point is not that the humans were more affected, but that if elven renegades can push thousands of troops and the bulk of the elves were still elsewhere, then that suggests a large population, not a small one. There's not one reference in canon about elven birth rates, this is pure fanfiction.
    Yes, there is, Veressa says as much to Rhonin.

    Finally, having to search for a high elf within the Kirin Tor to make your arcane sanctum and relying on Jaina to allow you in, when you have the people who invented it is laughable. Almost as laughable as all the most powerful mages except Azshara being humans who vastly outclass not one but two 10k year old magical civilizations, having the mage order hall be a secret human organisation, or the elves selling the symbol of elven royalty so that some jackass can plead for his apartment back.

    Jaina at that time was the leader of KT, so of course, she is the one who gives access,

    There you are again with humans being the most powerfull mages, again just because a select few like Jaina and Khadgar who went through experiences few others had are powefull , doesn't mean humans at large are better mages.
    Last edited by ausoin; 2019-03-11 at 10:15 AM.

  16. #336
    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    Suramar was the jewel of the NE society, and we can see it was packed with people in the flashback, the most beautiful city of the empire with the population that only makes up half or so of its capacity in the city? Doesn't sounds logical.
    This is a bizzare argument. Let's say that I say Vienna is the beautiful city in Austria. That doesn't necessarily say anything about its capacity. You could surely fit more people there and there would obviously be children born over 10k years, as I've already proven to you.

    And the High elves would have lost on their own as well, I'm just saying imagine them taking Elwyn forest and Westfall from the 7th Legion and be among the first to attack Stormwind.
    I don't have to, because it didn't happen with the Darkspear. The Darkspear are among the weakest races and have always been shown this way. Blizzard couldn't append more caveats to that situation if they tried.

    I'll take your word on the Valeera thing because I'd sooner not subject myself to any Knaak.

    There you are again with humans being the most powerfull mages, again just because a select few like Jaina and Khadgar who went through experiences few others had are powefull , doesn't mean humans at large are better mages.
    The Kirin Tor vastly outstrip all other magical organisations in power and relevance, to say anything else is simply false. Elves having to participate in human mage organisations already borders on parody, and so do Jaina and Khadgar's inexplicable powerboosts, considering that Khadgar can casually do what Elisande required the Nightwell to pull off. Or how a human paladin is superior to the draenei who've had 25k years of fighting the Legion under their belt. You name me a time non-human mages have done something impressive on-screen I'll name you five where it's the Kirin Tor.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  17. #337
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    @huth

    There's no suggestion that Suramar was at maximum capacity when the dome went up. We even see children in the city and the noble families and commoners alike clearly have them. On top of this, as @Nymrohd mentions, they had enough spare population to exile to populate leper colonies across all of Suramar including a giant sinkhole filled entirely with them, every canal of their magical system and most of their up world ruins. I question the characterization of this being out of any draconian motive though. While there was an underclass before the shield went down, it was also post-scarcity, it had endless food and what have you, rationing was only introduced after that as a control measure, hence the popular opinion turning against it.
    The Suramar under the dome was only part of the city. Where do you think all those ruins are from?

    Besides, yes, they had spare population they exiled... and there's kids in a city with only limited room for growth. Do the math.

  18. #338
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    The Suramar under the dome was only part of the city. Where do you think all those ruins are from?

    Besides, yes, they had spare population they exiled... and there's kids in a city with only limited room for growth. Do the math.
    The city doesn't look to be especially overpopulated. Again, resource limitations didn't exist under the dome. They clearly did have a fuck lot of kids, because most of the rest of Suramar is full of exiles of one description or another. We know they're exiles because they're specifically degenerated nightborne not night elves.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  19. #339
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    This is a bizzare argument. Let's say that I say Vienna is the beautiful city in Austria. That doesn't necessarily say anything about its capacity. You could surely fit more people there and there would obviously be children born over 10k years, as I've already proven to you.
    All im saying there seem to be lots of people in the flashback, and they cant build new buildings, their population can only grow to a certain degree.

    I don't have to, because it didn't happen with the Darkspear. The Darkspear are among the weakest races and have always been shown this way. Blizzard couldn't append more caveats to that situation if they tried.
    The Darkspear did take Razor hill and the Barrens from the Korkon,that was the main story of 5.3 and they were among the first to attack the gates of Ogrimmar.


    The Kirin Tor vastly outstrip all other magical organisations in power and relevance, to say anything else is simply false. Elves having to participate in human mage organisations already borders on parody, and so do Jaina and Khadgar's inexplicable powerboosts, considering that Khadgar can casually do what Elisande required the Nightwell to pull off. Or how a human paladin is superior to the draenei who've had 25k years of fighting the Legion under their belt. You name me a time non-human mages have done something impressive on-screen I'll name you five where it's the Kirin Tor.
    Kirin tor is not a human only organization, one of the leaders was Keal and later Aethas. Now, why did they returned is a more complicated topic, one explanation is that in time of crisis its hard to find the time to build a new flying city to battle the Legion. And for centuries elves lived in Dalaran, maybe some are not easily gonna leave it behind.

    What did Khadgar do that Elisande has also done?
    Turalyon didn't become one of the army leaders overnight, it took over hundreds of years.
    Last edited by ausoin; 2019-03-11 at 10:46 AM.

  20. #340
    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    All im saying there seem to be lots of people in the flashback, and they cant build new buildings, their population can only grow to a certain degree.
    We know from Silvermoon that elves can generate buildings with magic. Having lots of people already doesn't mean you can't have even more people when having more people has no cost. Even a miniscule birth rate would result in a gradual population increase, given 10k years to work with and there's no reason to assume the birthrate is that low.

    The Darkspear did take Razor hill and the Barrens from the Korkon, and they were among the first to attack the gates of Ogrimmar.
    Again, they were attacking the gates of Orgrimmar because Garrosh had retreated to Orgrimmar. Razor Hill was sparsely guarded, whereas in the Barrens they already had tauren and more importantly Alliance support.

    Kirin tor is not a human only organization, one of the leaders was Keal and later Aethas. Now, why did they returned is a more complicated topic, one explanation is that in time of crisis its hard to find the time to build a new flying city to battle the Legion. And for centuries elves lived in Dalaran, who some are not easily gonna leave it behind.
    My issue isn't with Dalaran being the floating platform, but rather the degree of focus put into it. Elves have a much longer tradition of magic and Dalaran and the Kirin Tor's status as masters of all magic is a comparatively recent invasion. Even its Archmage couldn't stop the Scourge back in WC3 and Archimonde destroyed their city himself. Now the whole of the Legion can't do anything to the city and the mage order hall is some secret group of human mages in which other races must seek refuge. That there are token elves only further illustrates this point, because it places them in a junior position in a field where they should have a significant advantage. The same applies for Turalyon, he has 25x times less the experience that they do.

    Khadgar did a time stop alone against the Blackrock in Shattrath. Elisande required the Nightwell to do it vs. the united elf forces.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

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