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  1. #61
    Legendary! jackofwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tapcon View Post
    One reason I think you're wrong is that warlocks struggle most of the game with obtaining enough hit. Mages have 6% from talents which is an inherent advantage AND 2% extra from ZG enchants. So mage basically starts at 8% hit making it way easier to get hit capped.
    I'm talking about post-BWL gear (ie: AQ and Naxx), where hit items are not nearly as hard to get for Warlocks. It's right there in the post you quoted me on.

    You're right,the lack of hit items is exactly what makes Warlocks scale very poorly through MC and essentially everywhere until they get Bloodvine. It's also the reason they use Bloodvine all the way through BWL.

    That does not, however, negate the fact that by the endgame of vanilla they outscale Mages, assuming equivalent gear and discounting the single Fire Mage per raid who wins the Ignite lottery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kallor View Post
    From what I recall from vanilla (and tbc), Warlocks were great against pretty much all classes except Rogue.
    Warlocks struggle against Rogues particularly if they are Alliance, as there is always an abundance of UD Rogues, and even negating a single fear will win them the fight more often than not. The matchup becomes easier with gear but it's never an easy one. It's one of the reasons why Alliance Warlocks are one of the most under-represented class/race combinations in the game.

    This also assumes the Warlock has DC up to even get a fear cast off on the Rogue in the first place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    You need to be conscious of your threat and life tapping in raids. Alliance warlocks who want to PvP also need to be concerned with WoTF which is annoying, but not the game ruining counter that some people claim it to be.
    Agreed, it's an extra nuisance that tends to make the Rogue matchup even worse (however overall the Orc racial is better IMO as resisting a single stun can easily win you a 1v1 against multiple classes). WotF on a Rogue vs an Alliance Warlock is just a win-more button.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tikcol View Post
    He has got half of it right, the first mage to crit gets rewarded the ignite stack the rest of the fight. But the second part is wrong. Never in my life have I dealt less damage than a warlock under normal circumstances. With ignite or without ignite rewarded to me.
    Did your raids run enough locks for CoS? Did you raid run a SW-specced Priest? Were you playing with bad Warlocks? What do you consider "normal" circumstances?

    The Mage that gets Ignite is unquestionably at the top of the caster list, but individual Warlocks should top individual Mages in Naxxramas gear. My experience supports the theorycrafting that has been done but I'm interested in hearing your personal perspective.

    One final note to consider/remember is that Warlocks are really only throttled by their threat once they get to BWL. There are no mana issues and no real spell hit issues if they've geared themselves properly. Warlocks perform significantly better on Alliance side due to getting Salv from Paladins (and this is my experience as a raiding Warlock in Vanilla), but on Horde side Warlock threat is a much bigger issue - and one that Mages really don't share.

    As a geared Horde Warlock you're extremely likely to get a good string of crits and then be forced to do nothing while you let others catch up in threat. This also means that Warlock DPS at endgame is partially throttled by the performance of the raid's tanks, as the more threat output they have the closer the Warlocks can dance to the sun without being burned.
    Last edited by jackofwind; 2019-03-19 at 09:02 PM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Because fuck you, that's why.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by jackofwind View Post
    I'm talking about post-BWL gear (ie: AQ and Naxx), where hit items are not nearly as hard to get for Warlocks. It's right there in the post you quoted me on.

    You're right,the lack of hit items is exactly what makes Warlocks scale very poorly through MC and essentially everywhere until they get Bloodvine. It's also the reason they use Bloodvine all the way through BWL.

    That does not, however, negate the fact that by the endgame of vanilla they outscale Mages, assuming equivalent gear and discounting the single Fire Mage per raid who wins the Ignite lottery.

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    Warlocks struggle against Rogues particularly if they are Alliance, as there is always an abundance of UD Rogues, and even negating a single fear will win them the fight more often than not. The matchup becomes easier with gear but it's never an easy one. It's one of the reasons why Alliance Warlocks are one of the most under-represented class/race combinations in the game.

    This also assumes the Warlock has DC up to even get a fear cast off on the Rogue in the first place.

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    Agreed, it's an extra nuisance that tends to make the Rogue matchup even worse (however overall the Orc racial is better IMO as resisting a single stun can easily win you a 1v1 against multiple classes). WotF on a Rogue vs an Alliance Warlock is just a win-more button.

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    Did your raids run enough locks for CoS? Did you raid run a SW-specced Priest? Were you playing with bad Warlocks? What do you consider "normal" circumstances?

    The Mage that gets Ignite is unquestionably at the top of the caster list, but individual Warlocks should top individual Mages in Naxxramas gear. My experience supports the theorycrafting that has been done but I'm interested in hearing your personal perspective.

    One final note to consider/remember is that Warlocks are really only throttled by their threat once they get to BWL. There are no mana issues and no real spell hit issues if they've geared themselves properly. Warlocks perform significantly better on Alliance side due to getting Salv from Paladins (and this is my experience as a raiding Warlock in Vanilla), but on Horde side Warlock threat is a much bigger issue - and one that Mages really don't share.

    As a geared Horde Warlock you're extremely likely to get a good string of crits and then be forced to do nothing while you let others catch up in threat. This also means that Warlock DPS at endgame is partially throttled by the performance of the raid's tanks, as the more threat output they have the closer the Warlocks can dance to the sun without being burned.
    Normal circumstances is me and the warlocks being alive for 100% of the fight. There's plenty of DPS charts that prove you wrong but I'm sure you'll discard them as being from private servers which is ok. If you play in a private server or any private server over the years and are claiming this at the same time then I can't even fathom this level of bias

  3. #63
    Legendary! jackofwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tikcol View Post
    Normal circumstances is me and the warlocks being alive for 100% of the fight. There's plenty of DPS charts that prove you wrong but I'm sure you'll discard them as being from private servers which is ok. If you play in a private server or any private server over the years and are claiming this at the same time then I can't even fathom this level of bias
    There are basically no accurate DPS charts that have survived from Vanilla that are relevant to properly min/maxed raids, which is too bad but back then we were a lot more limited. If they're DPS meters from private servers then they really can't be pointed to as a wholly accurate source.

    Just to satisfy my own curiosity - did/do you raid Horde or Alliance? Do you normally have to throttle or can you free cast for an entire fight? Do you run with a SW-specced Priest? How many of your Raid's Warlocks run Imp. SB? Do you have enough Warlocks for CoS to be a standard debuff?
    Last edited by jackofwind; 2019-03-19 at 10:59 PM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Because fuck you, that's why.

  4. #64
    It was also my recollection that at the very very end of vanilla wow Warlocks briefly outscale Mages (not close to the one carrying ignite however) if you had at least 3 locks and the SP shadowweaving debuff was up + all the rest of the usual debuffs. At that point the uptime on the imp shadowbolt buff + shadow weaving + curse of shadow or whatever would let the locks gain strongly.

    Edit: I should add, this is for ALLIANCE Warlocks with the benefit of at least one maintain with a Thunderfury by that point in progression. Threat is what holds back lock dps. Salvation and a TF wielding tank helps Warlocks dps tremendously.

    Not worth arguing over though, from what I recall they barely passed the fire mages at that point. Plus we will have a live server to put this to rest soon anyway so lets just wait.
    Last edited by Xyrax; 2019-03-20 at 06:33 AM.

  5. #65
    please don't tell me there are going to be world first races in classic and fanboys following the min/max builds/gear. that isn't even what vanilla was about

  6. #66
    Warlocks are great and fun in every type of content. IMHO the best levelers too.

    Farming soul shards for raids might seem to be annoying, but it's not a big of a deal since you can do that while already doing other things.

  7. #67
    If you are looking at raids they are a bit like warriors in that they slowly grow in power as time goes on though they cap out at a lower dps level.

    Still your or less guaranteed a spot just due to how large the population of mages,rogues,and warriors are likely to be.

  8. #68
    As a warlock who raided throughout vanilla, and again more recently on private servers (not 100% accurate) there's a lot of chat in here which is just downright wrong, and nowhere near correct.


    1. You never use Searing Pain, unless you're deep destro PvP and *definitely* not on the fire vuln mobs in BWL, unless you want to die.
    2. You always take Shadow Burn, generally you use it in execute phase, or after a crit to munch a stack of the iSB debuff
    3. Threat is a very real thing, and you're always watching threat meters more than DPS
    4. Cataclysm is a waste of points
    5. Not everyone can be a DS/Ruin hero
    6. Shards aren't that big of a deal, you just need to drain them from worthless mobs (fire spawns, whelps, anything which'll die super fast)

    What is true however, is!

    1. We can hit like a fking truck, with iSB debuff, weaving and CoS, and a decent amount of SP, hits are satisfying
    2. With gear, SM/Ruin is a beast of a spec for PvP, or even NF/SL, just run around DoT'ing and watch them slowly die
    3. Don't expect to to be good at the start, no one can use DoTs until debuff limit has been increased, and hit gear is released
    4. We have the best looking tier sets, although you'll never wear them
    5. Levelling is easy and fun, until you overaggro your voidwalker.
    6. You're a "Cool Guy/Girl"

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by jackofwind View Post
    Most Warlocks who are raiding and doing other content will run SM/Ruin.

    Points can be moved around in Affliction based on personal preference. Imp. CoA, Imp. CoE, and Drain Life/Soul pushback protection are essentially up to individuals (Imp. CoA is pretty bad though if you're looking for straight throughput.)

    People may argue that it was required to have Warlocks specced into Imp. HS and Imp. Blood Pact, but that's simply not true. It's something that a lot of beginner guilds did in Vanilla, and you might spec that way at the outset of MC to help support your first couple of raids but once your tanks had a modicum of gear it was completely unnecessary. (And it was always unnecessary/sub-par performance in dungeons).
    How is it with DS/RUIN?
    I've seen topics on different forums where it's unclear which build is best at different endgame tiers.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by nToxik View Post
    Have fun farming shards before every raid/dungeon.
    Why do people always bring up the same negatives in every thread where op says "i'm gonna play X"
    Do you activly want everyone on the server play a hunter, a rogue, mage, fury warrior and that nobody plays anything else?

  11. #71
    Dreadlord Cidzor's Avatar
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    Warlocks are a ton of fun in Classic, for every type of content. Solid damage, tons of utility, plenty of "oh shit" buttons, and pets for just about any situation. You get your Voidwalker early, and he's amazing for solo leveling/questing. My first alt was a warlock (after I got my warrior to 60), and I really enjoyed playing him. I could very easily survive or escape situations that would've been death sentences for my warrior.

    People point out the "it sucks to farm shards" thing a lot, but that's very overblown. Yeah, it was something you had to do, but it wasn't that bad. You could easily get used to it and just do it all the time out of habit anyway.

  12. #72
    Warlock Main here from both Retail and private servers, lot of great responses already here but to wanted to add my experiances:

    Warlocks start off at their weakest form in PvE raids but get progressive stronger when compared to other DPS classes. Towards AQ and Naxx they aren't fury warriors but you'll see some Warlocks towards the top of your meters if they are properly world buffing and fully consuming. The biggest blow to Warlock DPS is their access to gear with hit on it. Mages start out with talents that allow them to make up for the lack of initial caster hit itemization that warlocks don't have.

    I’ve seen a few people in here say that SM/Ruin (30/0/21) is the preferred/better DPS spec. This is misinformation and not true. I'd like to give as complete an answer to this topic as I can:

    On a few private vanilla servers they removed or greatly increased the debuff limits bosses could have. On these SPECIFIC servers only SM/Ruin became better because warlocks were able to use DoTs that they will NOT be able to use in classic due ot the 16 debuff limit. A PvE warlock’s rotation besides things like Sapper charges, life tap, and Shadowburn situationally is exclusively casting shadowbolt. The only talent in the affliction tree that buffs shadowbol’ts damage is the 10% from shadow mastery. Your raid will most likely choose to bring 1 Warlock as this spec because they will be able to have their imp pet out and give the tanks Blood Pact stamina buff. DS/Ruin (7/21/23) gets a 15% bonus to shadow damage from demonic sacrificing your succubus, 5% more than SM/Ruin.

    On private servers collecting shards at a server launch was painful in raids since those servers had (like vanilla originally did) 8 debuff slots. Drain Soul was knocked off always- it was challenging to replenish your shards during raid, even on trash etc. Once the debuff limit increased to 16 is was far more manageable. It has already been announced that the debuff limit will be 16 at launch and therefore I don't think keeping a shard inventory will be that much of a hassle. That said having a shard bag is recommended, so you'll have 1 less bag than other classes (except hunters).

    Warlocks are really great gold farmers in their own rights. Mages are the kings of AoE farming however, in DM Warlocks can use "clever use of game mechanics" to kite mobs up and down the handrail of the staircase before the tree boss and cast curse of doom on everything. If you master this you can pull the entire opening court area in a single pull. Also Warlocks can solo (very early on) Princess Mara runs. The golem boss requires more gear due to the spawning of adds but is doable pre BWL gear. Every other boss can be done even as a fresh 60. Rotgrip requires pet tanking with dots up until it is about to die then saccing it, fel dom a second pet, re sac when first shield wears off... def DPS race.

    As a Warlock you have life tap but you don't want to ever cast it on a raid boss if you can help it. GCDs for shadowbolt only! Since shadowbolt has a much higher mana cost compared to mages filler spells you'll spend a lot of time farming demonic runes (dark runes too). Be prepared to live in Felwood.

    They aren't as OP as hunters or mages while lvling but they are very smooth to ding 60 with. They can chain pull extremely well and your /played will be significantly less than 99+% of warriors and rogues- assuming you know what you're doing.

    I disagree with a few comments in here on Warlocks PvP performance. I guess it depends on if you're in a premade or not and what spec you join. That said MY experience is if youre SL in a premade youll be flag bitch in AB. It will be boring but great honor per hour! if youre destro and have a pocket healer you can definitely make some awesome highlight videos of hitting shadowbolt crit into shadowburn crit kill combos. You wont be a warrior with a pocket healer tho, Jesus H Christ....

    Overall Warlock is my favorite class but everyone has their preferences!

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    Last edited by The-loon; 2019-04-23 at 06:15 PM.

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