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  1. #361
    Quote Originally Posted by Embriel View Post
    If you listen to him speak this is not a problem he himself has since he really doesn't care that much about loot. If anything he benefits from gear being meaningless since it'll allow him to do the thing he enjoys (progress raiding) and skip the things he doesn't enjoy (farm raiding).

    Preach is very unique in that way. Very few people actually play the game for just the challenge and don't really care about the character he plays and its progression. This is a problem the rest of the playerbase has, he's on the outside looking in on this one.
    This post and few others mentioning Asmongold remind me of the argument preach and Asmongold had over gear and essentially their views on the game.

    Neither could really comprehend the other's pov. Yet people think they're the same (I'll admit though in that argument I fell on team preach)

  2. #362
    I think most of saw this disaster of a "trying to please everybody" system coming right at the end of WOTLK. Cataclysm was still more or less good enough in my opinion, which might be subjective, but since then it's just been a massive downward spiral.
    As far as i'm concerned it all boils down to the company being in absolute desperation for money (subs ). How do you MAKE people to re-sub? Give them a reason to play. How do you give player a reason to play?
    1. Keep adding new/relevant content to the game, however in order to know what playerbase wants - you obviously have to listen to their feedback in real time, instead of looking at your "data".
    2. Intentionally break the system that's been working for years, completely ignore your "morals" and go down low enough to implement massive rng to the aspect, which, for most people is the primary motivation to play, called - character progression, so now players feel like they're forced to keep playing in order to to have a chance of progressing, key word - "Chance". I think it's more than obvious which route they chose to follow, they removed reforging from the game so it's l i t e r a l l y impossible to get maximum out of your character now, because secondary stats for some classes are just as important if not more important than the primary one and then we have this disgusting and absolutely shameless system called titanforging, which... i won't keep beating the dead horse, but that's an actual cancer of the game. I don't they're dumb enough to actually not understand why it's cancer, they're just ignoring everybody when it comes to titanforging, because it keeps the meat on the table ( FORCES some people to keep playing ), shame on you - company that we onced loved and admired
    Last edited by Chillside; 2019-03-15 at 07:06 AM.

  3. #363
    Quote Originally Posted by Mightytasty View Post
    Mythic can’t titanforge nearly as much. 2x forge then it caps for mythic for some reason.
    And? That doesn't change the point that Mythic gear isn't replaced by LFR gear of the next tier. Can it be? Sure, if you get an extremely lucky forge. Is the blanket statement I was commenting on true? No, no it's not.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Chillside View Post
    1. Keep adding new/relevant content to the game, however in order to know what playerbase wants - you obviously have to listen to their feedback in real time, instead of looking at your "data".
    They do. They just don't listen to the very loud minority on the forums who think they represent the majority.

  4. #364
    Quote Originally Posted by Mightytasty View Post
    Shaming a guy for making money over playing a video game.
    not shaming . stating facts.

    in order for people to realise that streamers dont criticise BfA solely because they care about game - but because this attractcs viewers and gives them $$$$

    and people follow them blindly like sheeps because they belive that thaey are doing it because they "Care"

  5. #365
    Quote Originally Posted by niil945 View Post
    They do. They just don't listen to the very loud minority on the forums who think they represent the majority.
    They wouldn't end up with this broken and completely uninteresting version of game if they did

  6. #366
    Pointing out that it is silly to have almost all if not all of your raid gear from weeks to months of progression tossed out instantly from WQ, auto win scenarios and the first week of raiding sure is catching a lot of flack from people here. How many people here really enjoyed having your azerite gear being swapped out instantly when the last patch hit? Who likes farming gear over and over hoping for some traits you want only to have to re do that when you bump to the next item level bracket of that gear?
    "Privilege is invisible to those who have it."

  7. #367
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    This post and few others mentioning Asmongold remind me of the argument preach and Asmongold had over gear and essentially their views on the game.

    Neither could really comprehend the other's pov. Yet people think they're the same (I'll admit though in that argument I fell on team preach)
    i liked that argument - mainly because Asmongold repeated few times something which i have been writting on forums for years now - that its not only guilds trying out trial but also trials checking if guild is worth their time while preach is clearly a follower - "trials should do everything to make guilds happy no matter how demeaning this shit is because later on they will be the ones who will do this shit to new trials"

    and yes neither of them could agree with other because they come from very different guild backgrounds.
    Last edited by kamuimac; 2019-03-15 at 07:18 AM.

  8. #368
    High Overlord Mightytasty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by niil945 View Post
    And? That doesn't change the point that Mythic gear isn't replaced by LFR gear of the next tier. Can it be? Sure, if you get an extremely lucky forge. Is the blanket statement I was commenting on true? No, no it's not.

    - - - Updated - - -



    They do. They just don't listen to the very loud minority on the forums who think they represent the majority.
    Let’s assume you are 100% correct and I am 100% wrong. Even take titanforging out of the equation. Normal mode gear replacing mythic with a 30iLvl jump is ridiculous.

  9. #369
    Quote Originally Posted by Alvito View Post
    Pointing out that it is silly to have almost all if not all of your raid gear from weeks to months of progression tossed out instantly from WQ, auto win scenarios and the first week of raiding sure is catching a lot of flack from people here. How many people here really enjoyed having your azerite gear being swapped out instantly when the last patch hit? Who likes farming gear over and over hoping for some traits you want only to have to re do that when you bump to the next item level bracket of that gear?
    you are suggesting that in past you werent replacing all you gear when new tiers came.

    which is a blatant lie.

    unless you were in one of guilds which progressed in speed of 1 new normal / hc boss kill per week.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightytasty View Post
    Let’s assume you are 100% correct and I am 100% wrong. Even take titanforging out of the equation. Normal mode gear replacing mythic with a 30iLvl jump is ridiculous.
    but its not replacing mythic gear . in order to replace basic mythic piece from uldir you need at least wf/tf piece from normal .

    in order to replace it you need boss kills on hc not on normal .

    which is working as intended.

  10. #370
    Quote Originally Posted by Shnider View Post
    lmao gear was much harder to get. lmao replayability is much longer despite blizzard giving free gear to everyone. lmao see see. lmao hike hike.
    gear was “harder” to get but it was more meaningful and also you’d keep it for longer as it was not invalidated by the next lore patch world quests. tier sets / currency cap was what kept people playing, obtaining gear at a steady rate while playing interesting classes

    now people need titanforge bc random loot is getting showered for any random activity you do in the game (have you ever played borderlands ?), classes are dumbed down while 99% of the playerbase is still unable to perform properly, there’s no tier set or raid/leg quests anymore and raiding lost some appeal in favor of mythic+ where a lot of people play for rio score. so yeah better keep them playing and doing the same crap again and again hoping for that 415 to turn into a 425+socket

    do you need help to figure out which design is healthier for the game ? I think millions of people did, why don’t you ?
    Last edited by Philomene; 2019-03-15 at 07:24 AM.

  11. #371
    Mechagnome Alkizon's Avatar
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    Post

    Are we going back to all those topics again?
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    2. Characteristics (&cobblestones of shame into PvP talent system + time-gate/catch-up/Azerite-remark) +(+/+)+/+/+(+/+)+
    5.
    About dungeons&requirements also M+/modes (+ RNG+g.tokens+t/wf) +(+)+(+/+/+/+)+(+/+/+)+(+)+(+/+/+)
    10.
    Threat philosophy & badge system (it's not mine, but I won't do this better) +/+
    I believe that I have not much more to say than I already did, ...except ...may be. Well, that upgrade system (if any) should be controlled by players, because it's part of RPG customization (literally element of choice, how and what). Whether it'll be done through professions (but not as during WoD, it was too clumsy and simple there, we need joint work of several crafters for spare parts, we need a CD system with rare reagents (extraction of which could also be tied to (for specific items, to specific...) dungeons and raids), because this is how "catch-up" will be achieved due to excessive accumulation (banks+auction) of "old" upgrades to middle/end of expansion (which in some sense requires them to be BOE or could be somehow usable the same way as enchants do), which means it's decided by ordinary cash infusions, will naturally affect economy within the game, “usefulness” of professions) or through badges/tokens (which is also appropriate, but somewhat boring). However, I continue to believe that ilvl upgrade shouldn't exceed value of "relative irrelevance" (2/4, but 1/2 even better and enough) while abnormal growth is bound to be controlled by rating “non-reinforcing” characteristics, which were once abundance in the game and coped well with their task of limiting growth of player strength (and at the same time naturally differentiating item's content area use, yes, I'm talking about PvP vs PVE characteristics and degree of their need for a particular activity) and so on and so on...

    But! Here goes a little off topic.
    We had some discussion (not here, not on forum) about game tokens. It doesn't matter in principle about what it was in general or how it happened at all, and besides, I don’t intend to defend statement... In short, meaning is that Blizzard in some way turns out to have formally solved problems of "selling gold": they took and so to say "headed" black market themselves. Naturally, from money point of view (if no one deceives anyone about essence of this item, about how they appear in the game) it's profitable for them, because tokens as a subscription are more expensive and in some way even get rid of "excess" in-game gold (although, as for me, this theme could be solved by a dozen other less unsuccessful ways). But, after all, it turned out from discussion that, not looking at some advantages, tokens constrains devs' ability to satisfy normal, adequate players in terms of upgrads and RPG customization freedom. Look here, it was relatively easy to earn gold, but if normal productive professions existed (and you can see that they obviously deliberately downplay and devalue them), then with excess/excessive relief of production of “reagent component” in-game progress could be “bought for real money” (yes, by means of buying tokens; it's not pay-to-win, but it still strongly devalues ​​other people's already made efforts, but this isn't the most important thing, since it doesn't matter to devs), and since all content is available easily and naturally at easiest level of complexity, then this phrase smoothly turns into game walkthrough could be “bought for real money” (which is only confirmed by incredible spam (judging by forums) about “sale raids” and other stuff in latest expansions (⇒ more gold demand ⇒ potentially more tokens), that is, they didn’t really get around that, only discovered how to make more own money on it) so to slow it down RNG system was introduced (it had to be less predetermined ⇒ rewarded, not crafted or something). What happens: they don’t want to give up extra money as tokens, this is direct profit and solves problem of illegal circulation of gold (although, I repeat, black market is unbeatable, here they're fighting with windmills, because they didn’t solve any in-game problems, only added them, here they literally “skimp on security system”, which again = (service) money), but if players are given opportunity to have unobstructed flexible upgrade system and RPG customization, then game will be done (in current state) by means of elitists and fat wallet for a couple of evenings and doesn't require subscription for more than a month, won't needed more (I repeat, they didn't solve this problem, they just think they do, but they don't, by the way if they really think so, they are even more stupid than it seems, it being just slowed down/veiled this process). If we simplify all of above, then it turns out that all these "tricky", "new-fangled" systems and additions don't have any sense to discuss within framework of design in general, none sence, they have no long-lasting and significant design potential even in head of devs themselves, and there're just only (really matters for them) such ordinary and banal "game tokens" (already in form of some kind of microtransactions' complex ⇒ in-game shop ⇒ potential profits)... yes, money. Conclusion itself isn't much new, but I'd rather like to show process logic, as well as fact that tokens aren't so “painless” for in-game design, as many argue...

    --- Edit ---
    ...and now let's take negative component in relation to “real money” and project on Classic-in-development (it'll have game token influence on in-game financial and progress component due to shared subscription (design itself is mostly out of danger here, because of promised = required authenticity there)), since it have determined and controloble by players "RPG customization", what would you say about this
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2019-05-14 at 05:52 AM.
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  12. #372
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alvito View Post
    Pointing out that it is silly to have almost all if not all of your raid gear from weeks to months of progression tossed out instantly from WQ, auto win scenarios and the first week of raiding sure is catching a lot of flack from people here. How many people here really enjoyed having your azerite gear being swapped out instantly when the last patch hit? Who likes farming gear over and over hoping for some traits you want only to have to re do that when you bump to the next item level bracket of that gear?
    While it's true that the reward/obsolete cycle has accelerated I'm of the opinion that you raid because you enjoy raiding and the feeling of accomplishment of getting down the most difficult content in the game. Obsoleting gear has always been a thing. It's quicker now. It's also true that very special raid gear is only being received by a small minority of players. The outrage that casual players can catch up and at least "gear qualify" for the next raid is one result of the normal-heroic-mythic raiding community being rather small (and getting smaller). Another result is that the other 85% or so that never see anything like mythic raiding are a bigger audience for that nice drop than people want to admit.

    The devs still pay lip service to the idea that the most difficult content has the highest chance of rewards for the best player but it's been a while since they paid any lip service at all that raiders should have a permanent head start on progression. Catch-up mechanics are designed to keep the vast bulk of their paying audience around. The best approach is to not overly worry about other players and whether or not you imagine they are "deserving". That idea is gone, has been gone for some years, and unlikely to return.
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  13. #373
    High Overlord Mightytasty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    you are suggesting that in past you werent replacing all you gear when new tiers came.

    which is a blatant lie.

    unless you were in one of guilds which progressed in speed of 1 new normal / hc boss kill per week.

    - - - Updated - - -



    but its not replacing mythic gear . in order to replace basic mythic piece from uldir you need at least wf/tf piece from normal .

    in order to replace it you need boss kills on hc not on normal .

    which is working as intended.
    Later tier gear is usually better at equal iLvl, has more Azerite rings for example.

  14. #374
    Quote Originally Posted by Mightytasty View Post
    Let’s assume you are 100% correct and I am 100% wrong. Even take titanforging out of the equation. Normal mode gear replacing mythic with a 30iLvl jump is ridiculous.
    Is 385 gear higher ilvl than 385 ilvl gear? Hrm, I dunno. Can anyone check on a calculator for me? lol

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightytasty View Post
    Later tier gear is usually better at equal iLvl, has more Azerite rings for example.
    You do realize that the amount of Azerite rings have nothing to do with what tier we're on right? The additional ring was added to address a problem with Azerite gear not providing enough choices, it had nothing to do with BoD.
    Last edited by niil945; 2019-03-15 at 07:36 AM.

  15. #375
    He said it cost 10k a night to be a mythic raider. Now I know it's been a couple years since I was myself a mythic raider, but I find that extremely hard to believe.

    Could anybody here 6+ mythic confirm/deny?
    Quote Originally Posted by Elba View Post
    Klling a new born is not much morally different than a late term abortion. Should be avoided, but it's not like it is an actual person yet.

  16. #376
    Quote Originally Posted by Chillside View Post
    They wouldn't end up with this broken and completely uninteresting version of game if they did
    Not interested in the vast majority of suggestions from people on the forums, thanks.

  17. #377
    Quote Originally Posted by Embriel View Post



    It added value to your character. Every second spent progressing even if it was something braindead like weapon skill made your character feel more valuable to you because of the time and care you spent essentially checking off boxes.
    I Absolutely agree when it came to things like def cap, hit cap, etc etc etc/

    But i think weapon skill, something with zero immersion, zero difficulty, zero skill involved - thats the worst possible example of it.

  18. #378
    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    He said it cost 10k a night to be a mythic raider. Now I know it's been a couple years since I was myself a mythic raider, but I find that extremely hard to believe.

    Could anybody here 6+ mythic confirm/deny?
    It could cost more, but there are alot of variables involved

  19. #379
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    While it's true that the reward/obsolete cycle has accelerated I'm of the opinion that you raid because you enjoy raiding and the feeling of accomplishment of getting down the most difficult content in the game. Obsoleting gear has always been a thing. It's quicker now. It's also true that very special raid gear is only being received by a small minority of players. The outrage that casual players can catch up and at least "gear qualify" for the next raid is one result of the normal-heroic-mythic raiding community being rather small (and getting smaller). Another result is that the other 85% or so that never see anything like mythic raiding are a bigger audience for that nice drop than people want to admit.

    The devs still pay lip service to the idea that the most difficult content has the highest chance of rewards for the best player but it's been a while since they paid any lip service at all that raiders should have a permanent head start on progression. Catch-up mechanics are designed to keep the vast bulk of their paying audience around. The best approach is to not overly worry about other players and whether or not you imagine they are "deserving". That idea is gone, has been gone for some years, and unlikely to return.
    It has always been a thing, but a much slower thing that effected classes and specs in different ways. In the past it was very common for people to hold onto the entire 4 set or a 2 set as long as possible and swap out all at once or something like that. Azerite gear was dead in the water the second they bumped up the item levels for it and added a new ring. Insane TF/WF, the auto 400 gear from warfronts out of control WQ rewards all chip away at the reward system for raiding. For me this is much like EN. In EN for my character there were 3 items out of the entire place that I would have used in any shape or form all other items that I wanted were from dungeons or crafted. Now that is fine except the huge time and gold cost that goes into raiding. I do agree that the raiding community is certainly getting much smaller, for many reason. One being the change to PL loot, now that people can't earn DKP or whatever their group did on progression nights you are only rewarded for kills. So for guilds stuck on a boss for awhile it is harder and harder to get people to stick around for that. Catch up mechanics are a good thing and they should have them, but there are far too many and they give too much now. One of my friends just capped a new 120 the week before BoD launched, it has a 42 neck and counting thanks to the massive leveling you get from the big 1 time AP pay out quests that others did months ago for nothing. It is also at 398 or something like that for item level, it has never been in a mythic 0 or higher dungeon, no raids, no lfr, just WQ and warfronts. Having an alt zip to where a heroic geared raiding character is and having their neck fly past older characters because of the wacky way they did AP and the week to week cost changes is a big miss. I don't worry about if other players deserve gear, nor did I mention anything like that. Having gear just fly at people for little to no effort starts to degrade the system though, that I do care about. As people realize they don't have to do content to get rewards the entire thing starts to fall apart.
    "Privilege is invisible to those who have it."

  20. #380
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucks01 View Post
    I'm curious but how? What are you spending 10k on a night?
    Well, I believe that most raiders have alchemy/inscrption/cooking on their characters (alts), so even if we excude food/flask/pot/tome costs just raw gold required for repair is too high on progression nights, also consider the fact that some players might have to go back and change traits ( which, if you do it frequently we all know how nasty it can get )

    I'm not joking, few weeks ago we were progressing on conclave and we made two rogues go back to assa, I believe it costed around 25k for one of them to reforge his azerite pieces

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