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  1. #421
    Quote Originally Posted by Chillside View Post
    Doesn't matter which boss i killed and when, every single item that i need ( let me rephrase that, every item that my class requires ) is being dropped from first 5 bosses ( And i absolutely have to fish for the rest of the items in m+ ) and i'm at 7th right now, which we'll probably kill on sunday. Do you know why are we still on 7th? Because core roster keeps disassembling and we have to deal with new trials and alts every single raid and waste an hour on opulence, reason for disassembling? shit game ( and shit loot system is major part of it ). Including myself tbh, I'm on the edge of cancelling sub too, because there is no point for me to keep playing at this point

    I do agree with you only when it comes to azerite pieces, m+ farmer will never get desired 415 pieces when i had luxury to do so in 2 weeks or so, but i don't think it compensates the fact that i'm in no control of my own character progression
    That’s your guild issues really, we’re stable for years now. Different guilds work differently.

    You are in complete control of your character progression, because again - you can get items you want directly from content you do at best quality. You are limited by soft rng - item may not drop that week or someone else may be awarded it, but that’s it. You don’t need to pray for TF to get 415 item you want from a pool of random ilvl 400 items, which is a real hard rng.

    No other activity ingame guarantees this. Mythic raiding does, that’s why you are ilvl you are and M+ players are not unless they literally spend multiples of time in M+ with no guarantees.

    I mean look at your gear, your key pieces are either outright impossible to get otherwise or are super rng in m+ like the weapon. Mythic 415 weapon is almost guaranteed, M+? Holy hell rng may not even get it ever.
    Last edited by Gaidax; 2019-03-15 at 11:22 AM.

  2. #422
    Quote Originally Posted by Emerald Archer View Post
    I'm not talking about average though. I'm sorry that the fact I don't consider 6/9M players who nearly all can't even follow their simple rotation or pre-learn the fights in a tier where only 1 boss was hard, to be good players.

    You overestimate how "good" players have to be to be in a 6/9M guild right now, or you're just one of those players and are highly offended that players who do higher content don't consider you that good.
    this is the prime case of delusion of mythic raiders.

    someone who is in top 0,1% of players dont consider people who are in top 1% to be good. and sees people who are in top 5% as shit.

    and you wonder why average player considers mythic raiders as toxic people.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Chillside View Post
    Doesn't matter which boss i killed and when, every single item that i need ( let me rephrase that, every item that my class requires ) is being dropped from first 5 bosses ( And i absolutely have to fish for the rest of the items in m+ ) and i'm at 7th right now, which we'll probably kill on sunday. Do you know why are we still on 7th? Because core roster keeps disassembling and we have to deal with new trials and alts every single raid and waste an hour on opulence, reason for disassembling? shit game ( and shit loot system is major part of it ). Including myself tbh, I'm on the edge of cancelling sub too, because there is no point for me to keep playing at this point

    I do agree with you only when it comes to azerite pieces, m+ farmer will never get desired 415 pieces when i had luxury to do so in 2 weeks or so, but i don't think it compensates the fact that i'm in no control of my own character progression
    btu the problems you describe here have nothing to do with loot system

    only with the fact that your guild is clearly not interesting enough socialy enviroment to keep people in.

    if you are loosing people left and right i suggest looking what in guild itself makes it unappealing to people instead blaming for it loot systems.

  3. #423
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    this is the prime case of delusion of mythic raiders.

    someone who is in top 0,1% of players dont consider people who are in top 1% to be good. and sees people who are in top 5% as shit.

    and you wonder why average player considers mythic raiders as toxic people.
    Why are you so sensitive to the concept of it? If someone can't come close to doing their rotation, and stand in the same mechanic 20 times over the prog of a boss, they're playing badly, therefore bad in comparison to the level I raid at.

    I'm sorry I don't surround all my comments in care-bear complimentary words like "Hey at least they try"

    Relax a bit mate.

  4. #424
    Quote Originally Posted by Emerald Archer View Post
    I'm not talking about average though. I'm sorry that the fact I don't consider 6/9M players who nearly all can't even follow their simple rotation or pre-learn the fights in a tier where only 1 boss was hard, to be good players.

    You overestimate how "good" players have to be to be in a 6/9M guild right now, or you're just one of those players and are highly offended that players who do higher content don't consider you that good.
    "good" is relative. Being in a 6/9M guild right now is by no means bad whatsoever relative to the average player, but it isn't as good as where you are.

    I mean you're basically calling >99% of the playerbase bad. That may be true relative to you, but I don't really see the point of making that argument?

  5. #425
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    That’s your guild issues really, we’re stable for years now. Different guilds work differently.

    You are in complete control of your character progression, because again - you can get items you want directly from content you do at best quality. You are limited by soft rng - item may not drop that week or someone else may be awarded it, but that’s it. You don’t need to pray for TF to get 415 item you want from a pool of random ilvl 400 items, which is a real hard rng.

    No other activity ingame guarantees this. Mythic raiding does, that’s why you are ilvl you are and M+ players are not unless they literally spend multiples of time in M+ with no guarantees.
    Yea, we just can't seem to find a common ground here, which is fine, two completely different points of view.
    I'm happy for you, the fact that you don't have to worry about the stuff that i'm worrying about in terms of having a stable team, as well as character progression and itemization, but for me it's the polar opposite. Arguably 90% of my personal concerns about loot which goes hand in hand in terms of performance, would be fixed with the easiest and fastest solution possible called reforging, which, some bag of potatoes in blizzard thought that was a bad system

  6. #426
    Quote Originally Posted by Ishayu View Post
    "good" is relative. Being in a 6/9M guild right now is by no means bad whatsoever relative to the average player, but it isn't as good as where you are.

    I mean you're basically calling >99% of the playerbase bad. That may be true relative to you, but I don't really see the point of making that argument?
    It was an offhanded comment that's the thing, the original convo was about something else, but he started freaking out about a side comment that meant nothing but what was relative to me.

  7. #427
    Legendary! Frolk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    on bench - they recruited him to get nice exposition on twitch and he fucked them over , this raid by choosing $$$$ from streaning world first progress

    so he has plenty of time to do youtube videos now

    but hey $$$ is $$$
    It seems u got a massive hateboner for Preach, might i suggest some yoga.
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  8. #428
    In my opinion the main issue here is the players expectations to accessible content. As Preach points out, players will always find excuses for why they cant access certain content. In earlier expansions it was ilvl and now people are blaming systems like raider.io.

    In reality certain players dont have access to certain content because they are simply not good enough or experienced enough. No amount of high ilvl gear will change that. Instead you have a lot of players who only play content which they outgear completely and thereby never gets better. Players going into heroic with an ilvl of 410 and completely cheesing all the game mechanics is not beneficial for anyone.

    Players just need to accept that there is certain content they cant access if they are not willing to put in any effort and to get better. The issue has never been ilvl or systems like raider.io. The issue is that you are just not good enough. Realize it and accept it. Stop making excuses.

  9. #429
    Quote Originally Posted by Emerald Archer View Post
    It was an offhanded comment that's the thing, the original convo was about something else, but he started freaking out about a side comment that meant nothing but what was relative to me.
    Exactly his point. You're throwing insults around to >99% of the playerbase for being bad, and it was not crucial to make your argument at all.

    Nobody is asking you to play with them, and nobody is saying they're as good as you. All they're saying is stop throwing flippant insults around like calling people monkeys. You could've made your point perfectly well without doing so.

  10. #430
    Quote Originally Posted by Chillside View Post
    Yea, we just can't seem to find a common ground here, which is fine, two completely different points of view.
    I'm happy for you, the fact that you don't have to worry about the stuff that i'm worrying about in terms of having a stable team, as well as character progression and itemization, but for me it's the polar opposite. Arguably 90% of my personal concerns about loot which goes hand in hand in terms of performance, would be fixed with the easiest and fastest solution possible called reforging, which, some bag of potatoes in blizzard thought that was a bad system
    I think you are looking for issues where they don’t exist, we both are in 2 days per week guild. We raid 3 hours, you raid 4. You seem to have indeed massive turn-over of players, but we don’t.

    I think the problem is not loot here, obviously. I think your issue is that for Horde 6/9 at this point is totally nothing to write home about and you get poached like mad, where as our Alliance side 8/9 is pretty solid so nobody really can poach us there. Other than that it might be leadership/vibe which is super important, if people feel no attachment to the guild due to reasons then they jump at first opportunity.

    Gear? Reforge? That’s not an issue, it’s pleasant for you to think it’s an issue, but your guild’s issues are elsewhere and no need to lie to yourself.


    Like in my case, I like the guild, I like the people and there is maybe 1 or 2 better 2-day guilds Alliance-side in the world and that’s it, so I don’t even bother thinking about jumping anywhere.
    Last edited by Gaidax; 2019-03-15 at 11:50 AM.

  11. #431
    Quote Originally Posted by Emerald Archer View Post
    Why are you so sensitive to the concept of it? If someone can't come close to doing their rotation, and stand in the same mechanic 20 times over the prog of a boss, they're playing badly, therefore bad in comparison to the level I raid at.

    I'm sorry I don't surround all my comments in care-bear complimentary words like "Hey at least they try"

    Relax a bit mate.
    It’s the “victim-culture” of 2019. You need to watch out that dont offend any of the snowflakes. Participation trophies for everyone! Kids are learning effort is not important because in life you are just handed things.

    “Dont want to do good in school? No worries. Money grow on trees.”

  12. #432
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    I've said it a few times, but the game struggles because there's no vision in its design.

    There's no attempt to build an experience for specific people, one that has depth and inspires those who enjoy it. The attempts are to mildly entertain as many as possible, no matter what they're doing, and hope that enough of them chuck money at the online services and items.

    And that's the question that matters:

    What do we want World of Warcraft to inspire?

    There should be an experience related vision, with three to four clearly related intentions, in order to create that vision. That's what we had prior to mid-Wrath when those guys moved on and got replaced, and it's the opposite of what we've had since. Nonsense like dungeons having five difficulties, and raids having four, tells you that they're not designed to inspire people who are into that content, they're designed to make sure everyone does them no matter what their interest is.

    And why?

    Because people who aren't interested in raids need deep content of another type. That used to be the ways quests worked, how dungeons were set up, or the way professions were designed. Now? All of those are dreadful because quests are the same and non-threatening, dungeons have been horrifically shortened, and professions have had their value utterly gutted. The design of all of that was lowered, so that difficulties could be expanded for content that most players don't actually like very much.

    It's why so many are looking forward to Classic. It was at least built with a vision that the designers wanted to share.

    That intention is now history.

  13. #433
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    I think you are looking for issues where they don’t exist, we both are in 2 days per week guild. We raid 3 hours, you raid 4. You seem to have indeed massive turn-over of players, but we don’t.

    I think the problem is not loot here, obviously. I think your issue is that for Horde 6/9 at this point is totally nothing to write home about and you get poached like mad, where as our Alliance side 8/9 is pretty solid so nobody really can poach us there. Other than that it might be leadership/vibe which is super important, if people feel no attachment to the guild due to reasons then they jump at first opportunity.

    Gear? Reforge? That’s not an issue, it’s pleasant for you to think it’s an issue, but your guild’s issues are elsewhere and no need to lie to yourself.

    Well, guild stuff was just a side-story, I'm not saying that guild issues are directly correlated to my issues, all i'm saying is that some raiders felt discouraged and quit playing/switched to alts ( which we have to gear up now ), because of the loot system, just the sheer amount of m+ farming they had to do in order to keep their characters up to date was overwhelming. Yea, some of them just quit because of completely unrelated reasons, like , family, work, ect.
    Trust me when i say that 2-3% more haste and 2-3% more crit instead of mastery and versa would give me massive performance increase, which is literally a reforge issue ( or, again praying for TF in m+ ).
    We can continue this forever man, there is no point, i get what you're saying, but based on what class i play and what situation i'm in right now, i just don't agree with it, it's fine.

  14. #434
    I am Murloc!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pua View Post
    Because people who aren't interested in raids need deep content of another type. That used to be the ways quests worked, how dungeons were set up, or the way professions were designed. Now? All of those are dreadful because quests are the same and non-threatening, dungeons have been horrifically shortened, and professions have had their value utterly gutted. The design of all of that was lowered, so that difficulties could be expanded for content that most players don't actually like very much.

    It's why so many are looking forward to Classic. It was at least built with a vision that the designers wanted to share.

    That intention is now history.
    That's what M+ was supposed to be... except it really doesn't work like that with the current reward structure. Between Warfronts, World Bosses, LFR, (soon to be buffed) Incursions and random WQ Titanforges, low level M+ offer next to no rewards for them, while being significantly harder than any other content they did so far. In order to get upgrades, they need to do >7, which they are completely unprepared to do (without even getting into raider.io 'score').

    As it is now, they are catapulted straight through the gearing process at a crazy speed and then crash directly into a wall they cannot even begin to tackle, at all. There isn't any gradual increase in difficulty in effort, it's "oh, you're 360 now? Your WQ rewards will be 370, enjoy! Want something better? There's M+10 which will absolutely destroy you, have fun."

    I'm not naive enough to believe that people would "step up to the challenge" and "start raiding if only we removed all the easy modes", but there's just nothing there for them. Residue is supposed to be the incentive, but again - M+ and why would they bother if emissaries offer 385 easily, while anything better requires doing much harder instances and will be invalidated once the patch hits all the same. Used to be Reputation Vendors or Valor Points that offered concrete, tangible rewards after doing certain amount of effort. All useless nowadays.
    Last edited by KaPe; 2019-03-15 at 12:11 PM.

  15. #435
    Quote Originally Posted by Pua View Post
    It's why so many are looking forward to Classic. It was at least built with a vision that the designers wanted to share.
    As a vanilla player and as a player who can compare all expansions in WoW with 1300+ days played I can tell you, people are just delusional about classic WoW.


    Classic was just an endless monotonous grind in every aspect of the game and unlike todays WoW the end-game for every part was tailored to the most hardcore 24/7 players. I can't even imagine how BfA players who don't enjoy the minimalistic grind needed to keep up with the game right now expect anything else in classic, with its old-school MMO grind model.
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  16. #436
    Quote Originally Posted by Frolk View Post
    It seems u got a massive hateboner for Preach, might i suggest some yoga.
    yoga is very fun

    and i never liked hypocrites who capitalise on naivity of general population of people.

    you can call it hateboner i call it business social responsibility

  17. #437
    Quote Originally Posted by Ange View Post
    As a vanilla player and as a player who can compare all expansions in WoW with 1300+ days played I can tell you, people are just delusional about classic WoW.


    Classic was just an endless monotonous grind in every aspect of the game and unlike todays WoW the end-game for every part was tailored to the most hardcore 24/7 players. I can't even imagine how BfA players who don't enjoy the minimalistic grind needed to keep up with the game right now expect anything else in classic, with its old-school MMO grind model.
    i cant imagine how people who make borderline suicidal threads about gcd will cope with classic for example -_- i mean leveling alone should make them quit game by level 2 or 3 due to gcd

    same with people who whine about class pruning but are somehow ok with only ising 2-3 keys in raids just because other spells are laying unused in spellbook -_-

  18. #438
    Quote Originally Posted by Shnider View Post
    I certainly believe that wow today is appeal much more to casuals than back in the day. since they are the biggest portion of the population. it would be wise to actually make gear much more accessible while having the titanforged system to keep hardcore players busy.

    Seems like a good system to me.
    This is stupid. The TF system is pure RNG, so the casuals can still get more TF gear than the hardcore players. Hardcore players obviously want reward for the higher effort levels and time that they put into the game. Note: I dont give a crap, BFA is trash anyway.

  19. #439
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    i am interested in what EXACTLY you enjoyed about the weapon skill? When you swapped weapons, did you enjoy standing still auto attacking the same mob until it was max level? Did you feel that added to your game experience?
    Immersion, and it added to the RPG experience. You know, the thing that doesn't exist in current wow's Diablo 3 like structure.

    Weapon skills are a key staple of ALL RPG's outside of JRPG's (even they limit characters to certain weapon trees).

    Have you played an elder scrolls game? ever? Guess what, they have weapon skills. EQ? Weapon skills. Even ESO has weapon skills.

    WoW used to be a real MMO-RPG. now it's an MMO-ARPG. Nothing wrong with that at all and there's a crowd for that, but it isn't me. I prefer a game where the journey is the reward

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    He said it cost 10k a night to be a mythic raider. Now I know it's been a couple years since I was myself a mythic raider, but I find that extremely hard to believe.

    Could anybody here 6+ mythic confirm/deny?
    He's right, unfortunately, just due to costs. Each flask alone is over 2k. Then food, potions, repairs, etc... easily 10k a night.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    Well that's cuz that dude is spam reforging for some reason. And every single mythic guild I have ever been in provided guild repairs, if not free food and cauldrons at times. 10k gold a night is just absurd.
    Let's just say the guild is kind enough to provide food and cauldrons (NOT ALL DO, most don't) but let's just say they do.... repairs alone for 3 hours of wipes gonna run over 2k.

  20. #440
    Quote Originally Posted by Shnider View Post
    I certainly believe that wow today is appeal much more to casuals than back in the day. since they are the biggest portion of the population. it would be wise to actually make gear much more accessible while having the titanforged system to keep hardcore players busy.

    Seems like a good system to me.
    The underlying issue here is that casuals want access to better gear because they think it will make more content accessible to them. But this wont happen. A bad player will still be bad no matter how much gear you give him/her.

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