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  1. #441
    In my opinion the main issue here is the players expectations to accessible content. As Preach points out, players will always find excuses for why they cant access certain content. In earlier expansions it was ilvl and now people are blaming systems like raider.io.

    In reality certain players dont have access to certain content because they are simply not good enough or experienced enough. No amount of high ilvl gear will change that. Instead you have a lot of players who only play content which they outgear completely and thereby never gets better. Players going into heroic with an ilvl of 410 and completely cheesing all the game mechanics is not beneficial for anyone.

    Players just need to accept that there is certain content they cant access if they are not willing to put in any effort and to get better. The issue has never been ilvl or systems like raider.io. The issue is that you are just not good enough. Realize it and accept it. Stop making excuses.

  2. #442
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emerald Archer View Post
    It was an offhanded comment that's the thing, the original convo was about something else, but he started freaking out about a side comment that meant nothing but what was relative to me.
    Exactly his point. You're throwing insults around to >99% of the playerbase for being bad, and it was not crucial to make your argument at all.

    Nobody is asking you to play with them, and nobody is saying they're as good as you. All they're saying is stop throwing flippant insults around like calling people monkeys. You could've made your point perfectly well without doing so.

  3. #443
    Quote Originally Posted by Chillside View Post
    Yea, we just can't seem to find a common ground here, which is fine, two completely different points of view.
    I'm happy for you, the fact that you don't have to worry about the stuff that i'm worrying about in terms of having a stable team, as well as character progression and itemization, but for me it's the polar opposite. Arguably 90% of my personal concerns about loot which goes hand in hand in terms of performance, would be fixed with the easiest and fastest solution possible called reforging, which, some bag of potatoes in blizzard thought that was a bad system
    I think you are looking for issues where they don’t exist, we both are in 2 days per week guild. We raid 3 hours, you raid 4. You seem to have indeed massive turn-over of players, but we don’t.

    I think the problem is not loot here, obviously. I think your issue is that for Horde 6/9 at this point is totally nothing to write home about and you get poached like mad, where as our Alliance side 8/9 is pretty solid so nobody really can poach us there. Other than that it might be leadership/vibe which is super important, if people feel no attachment to the guild due to reasons then they jump at first opportunity.

    Gear? Reforge? That’s not an issue, it’s pleasant for you to think it’s an issue, but your guild’s issues are elsewhere and no need to lie to yourself.


    Like in my case, I like the guild, I like the people and there is maybe 1 or 2 better 2-day guilds Alliance-side in the world and that’s it, so I don’t even bother thinking about jumping anywhere.
    Last edited by Gaidax; 2019-03-15 at 11:50 AM.

  4. #444
    Quote Originally Posted by Emerald Archer View Post
    Why are you so sensitive to the concept of it? If someone can't come close to doing their rotation, and stand in the same mechanic 20 times over the prog of a boss, they're playing badly, therefore bad in comparison to the level I raid at.

    I'm sorry I don't surround all my comments in care-bear complimentary words like "Hey at least they try"

    Relax a bit mate.
    It’s the “victim-culture” of 2019. You need to watch out that dont offend any of the snowflakes. Participation trophies for everyone! Kids are learning effort is not important because in life you are just handed things.

    “Dont want to do good in school? No worries. Money grow on trees.”

  5. #445
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    I've said it a few times, but the game struggles because there's no vision in its design.

    There's no attempt to build an experience for specific people, one that has depth and inspires those who enjoy it. The attempts are to mildly entertain as many as possible, no matter what they're doing, and hope that enough of them chuck money at the online services and items.

    And that's the question that matters:

    What do we want World of Warcraft to inspire?

    There should be an experience related vision, with three to four clearly related intentions, in order to create that vision. That's what we had prior to mid-Wrath when those guys moved on and got replaced, and it's the opposite of what we've had since. Nonsense like dungeons having five difficulties, and raids having four, tells you that they're not designed to inspire people who are into that content, they're designed to make sure everyone does them no matter what their interest is.

    And why?

    Because people who aren't interested in raids need deep content of another type. That used to be the ways quests worked, how dungeons were set up, or the way professions were designed. Now? All of those are dreadful because quests are the same and non-threatening, dungeons have been horrifically shortened, and professions have had their value utterly gutted. The design of all of that was lowered, so that difficulties could be expanded for content that most players don't actually like very much.

    It's why so many are looking forward to Classic. It was at least built with a vision that the designers wanted to share.

    That intention is now history.

  6. #446
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    I think you are looking for issues where they don’t exist, we both are in 2 days per week guild. We raid 3 hours, you raid 4. You seem to have indeed massive turn-over of players, but we don’t.

    I think the problem is not loot here, obviously. I think your issue is that for Horde 6/9 at this point is totally nothing to write home about and you get poached like mad, where as our Alliance side 8/9 is pretty solid so nobody really can poach us there. Other than that it might be leadership/vibe which is super important, if people feel no attachment to the guild due to reasons then they jump at first opportunity.

    Gear? Reforge? That’s not an issue, it’s pleasant for you to think it’s an issue, but your guild’s issues are elsewhere and no need to lie to yourself.

    Well, guild stuff was just a side-story, I'm not saying that guild issues are directly correlated to my issues, all i'm saying is that some raiders felt discouraged and quit playing/switched to alts ( which we have to gear up now ), because of the loot system, just the sheer amount of m+ farming they had to do in order to keep their characters up to date was overwhelming. Yea, some of them just quit because of completely unrelated reasons, like , family, work, ect.
    Trust me when i say that 2-3% more haste and 2-3% more crit instead of mastery and versa would give me massive performance increase, which is literally a reforge issue ( or, again praying for TF in m+ ).
    We can continue this forever man, there is no point, i get what you're saying, but based on what class i play and what situation i'm in right now, i just don't agree with it, it's fine.

  7. #447
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pua View Post
    Because people who aren't interested in raids need deep content of another type. That used to be the ways quests worked, how dungeons were set up, or the way professions were designed. Now? All of those are dreadful because quests are the same and non-threatening, dungeons have been horrifically shortened, and professions have had their value utterly gutted. The design of all of that was lowered, so that difficulties could be expanded for content that most players don't actually like very much.

    It's why so many are looking forward to Classic. It was at least built with a vision that the designers wanted to share.

    That intention is now history.
    That's what M+ was supposed to be... except it really doesn't work like that with the current reward structure. Between Warfronts, World Bosses, LFR, (soon to be buffed) Incursions and random WQ Titanforges, low level M+ offer next to no rewards for them, while being significantly harder than any other content they did so far. In order to get upgrades, they need to do >7, which they are completely unprepared to do (without even getting into raider.io 'score').

    As it is now, they are catapulted straight through the gearing process at a crazy speed and then crash directly into a wall they cannot even begin to tackle, at all. There isn't any gradual increase in difficulty in effort, it's "oh, you're 360 now? Your WQ rewards will be 370, enjoy! Want something better? There's M+10 which will absolutely destroy you, have fun."

    I'm not naive enough to believe that people would "step up to the challenge" and "start raiding if only we removed all the easy modes", but there's just nothing there for them. Residue is supposed to be the incentive, but again - M+ and why would they bother if emissaries offer 385 easily, while anything better requires doing much harder instances and will be invalidated once the patch hits all the same. Used to be Reputation Vendors or Valor Points that offered concrete, tangible rewards after doing certain amount of effort. All useless nowadays.
    Last edited by KaPe; 2019-03-15 at 12:11 PM.

  8. #448
    Quote Originally Posted by Pua View Post
    It's why so many are looking forward to Classic. It was at least built with a vision that the designers wanted to share.
    As a vanilla player and as a player who can compare all expansions in WoW with 1300+ days played I can tell you, people are just delusional about classic WoW.


    Classic was just an endless monotonous grind in every aspect of the game and unlike todays WoW the end-game for every part was tailored to the most hardcore 24/7 players. I can't even imagine how BfA players who don't enjoy the minimalistic grind needed to keep up with the game right now expect anything else in classic, with its old-school MMO grind model.
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  9. #449
    Quote Originally Posted by Frolk View Post
    It seems u got a massive hateboner for Preach, might i suggest some yoga.
    yoga is very fun

    and i never liked hypocrites who capitalise on naivity of general population of people.

    you can call it hateboner i call it business social responsibility

  10. #450
    Quote Originally Posted by Philomene View Post
    gear was “harder” to get but it was more meaningful and also you’d keep it for longer as it was not invalidated by the next lore patch world quests. tier sets / currency cap was what kept people playing, obtaining gear at a steady rate while playing interesting classes

    now people need titanforge bc random loot is getting showered for any random activity you do in the game (have you ever played borderlands ?), classes are dumbed down while 99% of the playerbase is still unable to perform properly, there’s no tier set or raid/leg quests anymore and raiding lost some appeal in favor of mythic+ where a lot of people play for rio score. so yeah better keep them playing and doing the same crap again and again hoping for that 415 to turn into a 425+socket

    do you need help to figure out which design is healthier for the game ? I think millions of people did, why don’t you ?
    I certainly believe that wow today is appeal much more to casuals than back in the day. since they are the biggest portion of the population. it would be wise to actually make gear much more accessible while having the titanforged system to keep hardcore players busy.

    Seems like a good system to me.

  11. #451
    Quote Originally Posted by Ange View Post
    As a vanilla player and as a player who can compare all expansions in WoW with 1300+ days played I can tell you, people are just delusional about classic WoW.


    Classic was just an endless monotonous grind in every aspect of the game and unlike todays WoW the end-game for every part was tailored to the most hardcore 24/7 players. I can't even imagine how BfA players who don't enjoy the minimalistic grind needed to keep up with the game right now expect anything else in classic, with its old-school MMO grind model.
    i cant imagine how people who make borderline suicidal threads about gcd will cope with classic for example -_- i mean leveling alone should make them quit game by level 2 or 3 due to gcd

    same with people who whine about class pruning but are somehow ok with only ising 2-3 keys in raids just because other spells are laying unused in spellbook -_-

  12. #452
    Quote Originally Posted by Shnider View Post
    I certainly believe that wow today is appeal much more to casuals than back in the day. since they are the biggest portion of the population. it would be wise to actually make gear much more accessible while having the titanforged system to keep hardcore players busy.

    Seems like a good system to me.
    This is stupid. The TF system is pure RNG, so the casuals can still get more TF gear than the hardcore players. Hardcore players obviously want reward for the higher effort levels and time that they put into the game. Note: I dont give a crap, BFA is trash anyway.

  13. #453
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    i am interested in what EXACTLY you enjoyed about the weapon skill? When you swapped weapons, did you enjoy standing still auto attacking the same mob until it was max level? Did you feel that added to your game experience?
    Immersion, and it added to the RPG experience. You know, the thing that doesn't exist in current wow's Diablo 3 like structure.

    Weapon skills are a key staple of ALL RPG's outside of JRPG's (even they limit characters to certain weapon trees).

    Have you played an elder scrolls game? ever? Guess what, they have weapon skills. EQ? Weapon skills. Even ESO has weapon skills.

    WoW used to be a real MMO-RPG. now it's an MMO-ARPG. Nothing wrong with that at all and there's a crowd for that, but it isn't me. I prefer a game where the journey is the reward

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    He said it cost 10k a night to be a mythic raider. Now I know it's been a couple years since I was myself a mythic raider, but I find that extremely hard to believe.

    Could anybody here 6+ mythic confirm/deny?
    He's right, unfortunately, just due to costs. Each flask alone is over 2k. Then food, potions, repairs, etc... easily 10k a night.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    Well that's cuz that dude is spam reforging for some reason. And every single mythic guild I have ever been in provided guild repairs, if not free food and cauldrons at times. 10k gold a night is just absurd.
    Let's just say the guild is kind enough to provide food and cauldrons (NOT ALL DO, most don't) but let's just say they do.... repairs alone for 3 hours of wipes gonna run over 2k.

  14. #454
    Quote Originally Posted by Shnider View Post
    I certainly believe that wow today is appeal much more to casuals than back in the day. since they are the biggest portion of the population. it would be wise to actually make gear much more accessible while having the titanforged system to keep hardcore players busy.

    Seems like a good system to me.
    The underlying issue here is that casuals want access to better gear because they think it will make more content accessible to them. But this wont happen. A bad player will still be bad no matter how much gear you give him/her.

  15. #455
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    In my opinion the main issue here is the players expectations to accessible content. As Preach points out, players will always find excuses for why they cant access certain content. In earlier expansions it was ilvl and now people are blaming systems like raider.io.

    In reality certain players dont have access to certain content because they are simply not good enough or experienced enough. No amount of high ilvl gear will change that. Instead you have a lot of players who only play content which they outgear completely and thereby never gets better. Players going into heroic with an ilvl of 410 and completely cheesing all the game mechanics is not beneficial for anyone.

    Players just need to accept that there is certain content they cant access if they are not willing to put in any effort and to get better. The issue has never been ilvl or systems like raider.io. The issue is that you are just not good enough. Realize it and accept it. Stop making excuses.
    and its perfeckly ok to not have acces to content that is beyond players skills.

    but what is not ok is for those people to have nothing else to pursue while playing game.

    BfA is the first expansion in last 5 years since removal of VP when they do have those goals.

    and mythic crowd hate it - because for abundance of people its more then enough - most people play indeed only 3-5 hours a week - meaning they will do some WQ if daily with gear / azerite is up , will do WF/WB , will farm darkshore/arathi rares for mounts / transmog , maybe will do few mythic 0 if they have free time or will do lfr ... and they will be ok with it till next reset because all this stuff will already take them 5+ hours - which is how much time they have to play weekly , if they play a bit more they are liekly to level up new allience alt for a hour or 2 before they got bored with it. and are perfeckly happy with this as their content.

    imo the biggest problem are atm people who play 20+ hours a week get burned out from playing that much and blame wf/tf on their addiction to game. or the fact that they will hit that hardcap on gear literaly months before it will happen to casual players. because in 1 week they do content that casual people takes 1 month. for those people 1,5 month is worth as much as half of year of gameplay for casual crowd. imagine the burnout there.
    Last edited by kamuimac; 2019-03-15 at 12:34 PM.

  16. #456
    Bloodsail Admiral rogoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    That's how you get 'em youtube bucks after all. He's just one of many people with agenda stirring shit up where he can and his agenda is $$ and stirring shit up is the best way to attract masses he needs.
    thing is though, the core concept of the arguement isn't wrong, gear literally has no relevance anymore in the game, you no longer bother with BiS, there's no real end to the gearing process to the point where you just don't bother anymore, and if that wasn't bad enough the developers are bankrupt when it comes to interesting and cool ideas to make powerful meaningful items in the game ala the trinket slot, every single trinket until BoD was static stats + stats proc or on use stats, there was nothing special or fun about it you just equip what the highest numbers tell you to equip, like when i think back to wrath and gearing up my mage for BiS at the time you had trinkets that gave you a requirement from your playstyle to trigger them (fire mage needing to use living bomb on single target to trigger the trinket from rotface if memory serves), or had some kind of unique effect that made them powerful but wasn't useful to all specs that used that primary stat unlike today where they are so lazy they have made very very few spec/stat type exclusive items and it has vastly reduced the number of items in the game since they have made the same item have dual stats when used by say a str user or agi user.

    retired march 2013 RIP - returned january 2016, purely because paladins finally get Ashbringer!

  17. #457
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    The underlying issue here is that casuals want access to better gear because they think it will make more content accessible to them. But this wont happen. A bad player will still be bad no matter how much gear you give him/her.
    thats bs and lie. spread by people like preach to work for his agenda.

    average joe playing wow does not care about mythic + or mythic raids.

    its average midcore raider in guilds between 5000-1000 on his alt who is locked out of mythic + by raider.io who is whining on forums about it.
    Last edited by kamuimac; 2019-03-15 at 12:34 PM.

  18. #458
    Quote Originally Posted by Chillside View Post
    Well, guild stuff was just a side-story, I'm not saying that guild issues are directly correlated to my issues, all i'm saying is that some raiders felt discouraged and quit playing/switched to alts ( which we have to gear up now ), because of the loot system, just the sheer amount of m+ farming they had to do in order to keep their characters up to date was overwhelming. Yea, some of them just quit because of completely unrelated reasons, like , family, work, ect.
    Trust me when i say that 2-3% more haste and 2-3% more crit instead of mastery and versa would give me massive performance increase, which is literally a reforge issue ( or, again praying for TF in m+ ).
    We can continue this forever man, there is no point, i get what you're saying, but based on what class i play and what situation i'm in right now, i just don't agree with it, it's fine.
    Then those raiders are pretty dumb, frankly.

    Here's snapshot of our guild's activity this reset - note all the massive amounts of M+ farming we do... You get everything you need, aside from one oddball item, in raid, end of story. As a mythic raider "sheer amount of m+ farming" is the most retarded thing you can do, really, you don't get anything out of it realistically - you do one per week for chest of disappointment (guess why it's called that way) and end of story.



    Your average guild ilvl is about 412 - it is more than enough to down Jaina... what more do you need? Reforging would optimize it, but do you really need it, will that suddenly make all the people who bailed in your guild unbail? It's as if you are grasping at straws really.

    We're wiping at Jaina now not because of 2% here and there but because we plainly fail mechanics and need practice. That's it.

  19. #459
    Current game is designed so people can come back any tier and be raid ready in no time, without having to nag the guild in gearing them up in old content everyone has long tired of. Modern WoW can't afford telling potential people to wait two years until an expansion drops so they can get on the treadmill again.
    I understand wanting a 'lasting' reward for your efforts, but if those are performance enhancements such as gear, that is the same as denying other people that took a break the ability to catch-up.

    And to the OP, badges and tokens are boooooooring!

  20. #460
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    and its perfeckly ok to not have acces to content that is beyond players skills.

    but what is not ok is for those people to have nothing else to pursue while playing game.

    BfA is the first expansion in last 5 years since removal of VP when they do have those goals.

    and mythic crowd hate it - because for abundance of people its more then enough - most people play indeed only 3-5 hours a week - meaning they will do some WQ if daily with gear / azerite is up , will do WF/WB , will farm darkshore/arathi rares for mounts / transmog , maybe will do few mythic 0 if they have free time or will do lfr ... and they will be ok with it till next reset because all this stuff will already take them 5+ hours - which is how much time they have to play weekly , if they play a bit more they are liekly to level up new allience alt for a hour or 2 before they got bored with it. and are perfeckly happy with this as their content.

    imo the biggest problem are atm people who play 20+ hours a week get burned out from playing that much and blame wf/tf on their addiction to game. or the fact that they will hit that hardcap on gear literaly months before it will happen to casual players. because in 1 week they do content that casual people takes 1 month. for those people 1,5 month is worth as much as half of year of gameplay for casual crowd. imagine the burnout there.
    Those casuals also come and go between games while those hardcore players tend to stick around and pay their sub in good and bad times.

    Guess which one has more value to a company long term?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by HuxNeva View Post
    Current game is designed so people can come back any tier and be raid ready in no time, without having to nag the guild in gearing them up in old content everyone has long tired of. Modern WoW can't afford telling potential people to wait two years until an expansion drops so they can get on the treadmill again.
    I understand wanting a 'lasting' reward for your efforts, but if those are performance enhancements such as gear, that is the same as denying other people that took a break the ability to catch-up.

    And to the OP, badges and tokens are boooooooring!
    problem is the pendulum has swung too far in the opposite way. I agree with ya that the days of having to wait between expacs to hop back in to stay competitive is over, and good riddance.

    problem though, is that the gear itself is meaningless now and nothing stands out in the way it did even with Legion Legendaries. Love them or hate them, the legion legendary's made the game fun and have longevity to gearing even if it was forced.

    Today's gear means absolutely nothing. I was 5/9 mythic before i quit 2 weeks ago and i couldn't tell you a single piece of gear i got this expac, what it does, or where i got it.

    I can still name legit every item from vanilla-wotlk i got from raiding because it mattered. The more scarcity it has, the more precious it becomes.

    When everyone is special, no one is special so to speak.

    I like the idea of catch up mechanics so that people who return aren't stuck 2-3 raids behind (Looking at you, TBC) but the problem is that currently gear is so de-valued due to TF/WF and other catch up mechanics on gear, that most mythic raids are folding behind a "Why bother?" attitude.

    This doesn't hurt the guilds at the top chasing Jaina, or the bottom feeders of WoW who wouldn't raid anyway.... it's hurting the heroic/mythic guilds who are left with crap gear and a tremendous sense of apathy, with no relief coming this expac from Blizz.

    BFA is, IMHO, by far wow's worst expac from an RPG stand point.

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